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ESSAY: The influences of the Star Wars series (FILM and SCORE)


Chen G.

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Wow, @Chen G., this is an amazing analysis! Truly impressive work; nuanced and supremely researched. Really shines a light on the origins of this now-eternal pop culture property. (I don't think Lucas would care much to read it, though, lol.)

 

What are we to make of Lucas and Star Wars after this? I mean, if I'm not mistaken, the only really original thing Lucas came up with was R2-D2. Everything else (characters, places, storyline, story beats...) was just pulled off the shelf of a dozen pop cultural sources, sometimes in almost a direct lift. There's certainly a level of sophistication required to put all these ingredients together into a film like Star Wars, but it's dismaying to learn how little of it is a truly original creation.

 

It's like if I took apart two dozen kitchen appliances and cobbled together from cherry-picked parts from each one some kind of wondrous new food-making machine. How much credit do I deserve for building that device if every part inside it is a modified original part from some other appliance? The question is almost philosophical.

 

What a great read. Thanks so much for sharing this with us!

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I don't see any of this as disparaging to Lucas or his works, as such. For all Star Wars owes to Flash Gordon and especially to John Carter or Galactic Patrol, you can't watch a Flash Gordon Republic Serial and "see" Star Wars. Inasmuch as Smith's book has a Star Wars-like (the back of the book reads like a Star Wars text crawl) its also a lot less fantastical, and more like very soft science-fiction. So, ultimately, the finished article is very much its own thing, with its own feeling.

 

The only thing that could be seen as diminishing Lucas' work, is in the fact that this was not some archival sweep into the backlogs of the space opera genre down to the 1910s: no, Lucas' sources were overwhelmingly recent: between 1968 and 1975. It also means - some of this stuff was plenty popular - that anyone in the audience at all in-tune with this stuff would have recognised this.

 

And then of course there's all the "high brow" detritus that clung to this research process over the years: notably, all the talk of Joseph Campbell. I actually think Lucas' focus on high-brow sources was a huge disservice to him and his work. It forces the films (especially the original Star Wars) to a literary, academic, mythopaeic standard that they simply were not meant to meet.

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On 14/06/2023 at 5:26 PM, Chen G. said:

And then of course there's all the "high brow" detritus that clung to this research process over the years: notably, all the talk of Joseph Campbell.

I think the idea of the monomyth shows much more explicitly in Anakin's story, which, like most of Lucas's intended meanings and such, is somewhat muddy in the OT, and becomes clearer and more refined in the PT. He obviously had a few ideas kicking around in the 12 years or so between RotJ and starting work on TPM.

 

And none of this is to mention the ring composition and intense visual poetry the series would take on, starting with RotJ, but kicking into high gear with the prequels, which is, as far as I'm aware, unique in the world of film, and wholly responsible for his returning to the director's chair.

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No, because the Monomyth is a description (again, a rather hackneyed one) of a comic hero, whereas Anakin is a tragic hero. Tellingly, in the "All I need is an idea" Webisode, you can see a bunch of anthropology books on Lucas' desk (most of which I'm convinced are just for show, in the same way that people will have Proust on their shelf), Campbell is not amongst them. In fact, one of the books is by one of Campbell's most vociferous critics, Alan Dundes.

 

And I find the whole "Ring composition" thing vastly overreaching. Lucas is ultimately just the kind of artist who makes the same two or three films over and over again in different guises: Star Wars is, to some extent, the same film as Return of the Jedi, The Phantom Menace, The Force Awakens (which Lucas did perliminary work on), as well as Willow and to a some extent even Raiders of the Lost Ark. Raiders itself is the same film as The Last Crusade and the novel Splinter of the Mind's Eye, the Ewok films are a dry-run for Willow. There's a reason both Return of the Jedi and Temple of Doom (which Lucas worked on consequitively) feature a musical number, and if you look at some early drafts of Willow you can see the gestation of beats that will appear in the prequel trilogy, etc...

 

The Star Wars films that really mirror each other are Star Wars, Return of the Jedi and (because Lucas wrote it out of an earlier draft for Star Wars) The Phantom Menace (well, and The Force Awakens). So its 4-6-1, which doesn't really fit with the "Ring theory" nonesense. Beyond some fairly superficial similarities, I don't think Attack of the Clones and The Empire Strikes Back are very similar, and Revenge of the Sith probably features more callbacks to the previous two prequels than to anything else.

 

The Wagnerian in me is reminded of Alfred Lorenz and his "Bar-form" theorem...

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8 hours ago, Chen G. said:

No, because the Monomyth is a description (again, a rather hackneyed one) of a comic hero, whereas Anakin is a tragic hero. Tellingly, in the "All I need is an idea" Webisode, you can see a bunch of anthropology books on Lucas' desk (most of which I'm convinced are just for show, in the same way that people will have Proust on their shelf), Campbell is not amongst them. In fact, one of the books is by one of Campbell's most vociferous critics, Alan Dundes.

 

And I find the whole "Ring composition" thing vastly overreaching. Lucas is ultimately just the kind of artist who makes the same two or three films over and over again in different guises: Star Wars is, to some extent, the same film as Return of the Jedi, The Phantom Menace, The Force Awakens (which Lucas did perliminary work on), as well as Willow and to a some extent even Raiders of the Lost Ark. Raiders itself is the same film as The Last Crusade and the novel Splinter of the Mind's Eye, the Ewok films are a dry-run for Willow. There's a reason both Return of the Jedi and Temple of Doom (which Lucas worked on consequitively) feature a musical number, and if you look at some early drafts of Willow you can see the gestation of beats that will appear in the prequel trilogy, etc...

 

The Star Wars films that really mirror each other are Star Wars, Return of the Jedi and (because Lucas wrote it out of an earlier draft for Star Wars) The Phantom Menace (well, and The Force Awakens). So its 4-6-1, which doesn't really fit with the "Ring theory" nonesense. Beyond some fairly superficial similarities, I don't think Attack of the Clones and The Empire Strikes Back are very similar, and Revenge of the Sith probably features more callbacks to the previous two prequels than to anything else.

 

The Wagnerian in me is reminded of Alfred Lorenz and his "Bar-form" theorem...

Obviously it doesn’t follow note for note Campbell’s theory, but it’s close enough to be recognized as such. I find your detective work on what Lucas has and has not read, with regard to the anthropological sources, doubtful and mostly conjecture. I agree with you on the other sources.

 

Empire and Clones are so much alike it’s ridiculous. But you have to think mirrored, not parallel. There are shots in AotC mirrored exactly from ESB. The entire structure of the film is mirrored. It is, I’m sure, the reason so many of the Padme scenes were cut, to keep the “stanzas” correct. Even the music shows clear signs of being related. The same is true with Sith. It heavily mirrors Episode IV. Some stuff gets moved around to suit the plot, but it’s absolutely there. 
 

There are also rings inside rings so that the related episodes are I-VI, II-V, and III-IV in the standard structure, with the smaller rings comprised of I-III, I-IV, and IV-VI.

 

In what ways is Raiders the same as THX 1138? Chase scenes? I find your theory spurious.

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Okay, I'll put a different way: point me to something specific, conceret, in ANY Star Wars film and make the connection to Campbell stick.

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9 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Okay, I'll put a different way: point me to something specific, conceret, in ANY Star Wars film and make the connection to Campbell stick.

I have other responsibilities, but am working on a point-by-point comparison of Campbell's 17 steps of a Hero's Journey to Luke and Anakin's story. An exercise I will go through exactly one time, for your benefit, since you asked. At no point am I arguing the scholarly merits of Campbell, something I am not qualified to speak on, only that Lucas used this model, unintentionally at first (by his own admission), and then more specifically as time went on, to structure his films, and where he deviates from that structure.

 

If you have not read Mike Klimo's essay on ring composition in Star Wars, I encourage you to do so. It's pretty compelling stuff. I disagree on a few points, but find enough evidence that it's hard to ignore.

 

https://www.starwarsringtheory.com/

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I'll do mine. The steps of Campbell's formula are:

  1. The Normal World
  2. Call to Adventure/Refusal of the Call
  3. Supernatural aid
  4. Crossing the Threshold
  5. Belly of the Whale
  6. Road of Trials
  7. Meeting with the Goddess
  8. Temptress
  9. Atonment with the Father figure
  10. Apotheosis
  11. Ultimate Boon
  12. Refusal of the Call to return
  13. Magic Flight
  14. Rescue from without
  15. Crossing of the Return Threshold
  16. Master of Two Worlds
  17. Freedom to Live

 

Luke goes (in Star Wars) 1, 2, 4, 5, 6a, 6b, 9, 10, 17. In the trilogy he goes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6a, 6b, 6c, 6e, 8, 6f, 6g, 7, 8 (again), 9, 10, 17.

 

Anakin goes (in The Phantom Menace) 3, 2, 4, 5, 10. In the trilogy he goes 3, 2, 4, 6a, 6b, 6c, 8, 6e, 6f, 6e, 6g, 6f (again), 6h, 6j, 6k. 

 

I've added trilogy arcs, but those are basically bogus because that presumes Lucas wrote the entire trilogy at once, which he would of course insist he did, but which we know he didn't.

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They are in no way bogus. They were written as a trilogy, whether all at once or over a span of time, it makes no difference. But if your attitude is basically going to be "it's true, but it's bogus," then I won't waste my time.

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On 21/06/2023 at 12:49 PM, Schilkeman said:

They were written as a trilogy, whether all at once or over a span of time

 

I feel like that's more true of the prequel trilogy than the classic trilogy. Lucas knew he would put Anakin into a forbidden (and ultimately doomed) love affair with Padme, which you could (very, very roughly) equate into (8) Meeting with the Temptress. But that's basically it.

 

And, again, Campbell's hero triumphs, and returns home having changed. Luke triumphs and changes but doesn't return home, but Anakin doesn't get to do either one.

 

And, again, we're talking about a "formula" whose academic worth is shakey at best.

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Why would I not count the other two (or five in the case of Anakin) films? That’s a completely arbitrary limitation.  It’s like saying Frodo didn’t succeed in destroying the ring because he didn’t do it by the end of the first book, and LotR was not conceived as a whole, either.

 

If we count the other films, then add 12, 15, and 17 for Luke, and add 1, 3 (still in TPM), 7, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, 17, and 18 for Anakin. 

 

If 14/18 and 16/18 don’t count enough for the hero’s journey, I don’t know what to tell you. 

 

Knowing how something was made only gives insight if your facts are correct in knowing how something is made. This need you seem to have to paint Lucas as bumbling his way into success and masking it with faux-intellectualisms shows a bias, and makes me question most everything you try to present as fact.

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1 minute ago, Schilkeman said:

y would I not count the other two (or five in the case of Anakin) films?

 

Ah, so we're going by the "all six films are actually the story of Anakin" nonesense...

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  • 5 months later...

I cited Doug Adams, who I think provides a good analysis on the similarities to Holst where they appear. I've yet to come across conclusive evidence that Williams had Tcaikovsky in mind with the love theme, but I could be wrong.

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On 07/06/2023 at 4:12 PM, Chen G. said:

Adams also questions whether Williams' intentionally referenced the Dies Irae plainchant in his score.

 

Thank you! The theme itself, referenced with Luke's speeder, does not sound that much like Dies Irae except for its most cited statement. At the beginning of the album track Land of the Sand People nobody says "Hey that's Dies Irae!"

 

Amazing essay, btw. I'll go over it in depth when I have more time.

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On 11/12/2023 at 1:57 AM, Chen G. said:

I've yet to come across conclusive evidence that Williams had Tcaikovsky in mind with the love theme

 

Neither have I, but the influence seems clear. Compare:

 

 

Now that I think of it, that part of Tchaikovsky's Violin Concerto also remind me of Bill Conti's work on The Right Stuff 🤔

 

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5 hours ago, greenturnedblue said:

Neither have I, but the influence seems clear.

 

Sure. But my modus operandi is usually to look for something more than just a similarity: I try to look for more explicit evidence that something had indeed been used as inspiration (or, in this case, as a temporary track). We know - mostly thanks to Paul Hirsch - what was in the temporary track for Star Wars. In case like Revenge of the Sith, we have other evidence to support that Lucas was using pieces from certain contemporary films in his temporary track.

 

Personally, if Tchaikovsky's work had been an influence, it may have been earlier on: by the time Williams had written "Han Solo and the Princess" he'd been writing love themes of a similar vein for quite some time. I think I did note that Williams' melodic language in general is quite Tschaikovski-like.

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I think it is a bit pointless to try and determine the precise amount something was influenced by something else. It could be JW heard this piece 20 years earlier and it stuck with him and then inadvertently influenced him when composing ESB. Even when someone says "No, I was not influenced by xyz", they are just saying they were not aware to have been influenced. The subconscious knows things the conscious memory does not

 

That is not to say with any kind of certainty JW was indeed influenced by Tchaikovsky's Violin Concerto. Maybe they both just happened to come up with the same melody. This was also the case with Gordy Haab's Han Solo material in Battlefront 2 and JW's The Adventures of Han piece. Haab insists he had not ever heard the JW theme before coming up with his own, but who knows. 

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I just think, you could take any love theme from any movie and you might find a classical or romantic piece snippet with that chord progression or traces of the melodies. This pure chord progression and modulation topic has pretty much been covered in the past three or four centuries.

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Same with visual or textual influences: I could just find similarities between Star Wars and other stories, and sure that's not a futile exercise on a more poetic level. But, as an investigation into the creative process behind the film, it pays to be more rigorous and look for correspondences, rather than similarities.

 

In general, my approach to researching the making of Star Wars is that things are well documented enough, that by and large I will only determine things on the base of positive evidence: if there's no evidence, it probably wasn't a thing; and that applies to the sources Lucas drew on as much as anything.

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On 17/12/2023 at 4:30 AM, Chen G. said:

Personally, if Tchaikovsky's work had been an influence, it may have been earlier on: by the time Williams had written "Han Solo and the Princess" he'd been writing love themes of a similar vein for quite some time. I think I did note that Williams' melodic language in general is quite Tschaikovski-like.

 

100% this.

 

Not to dismiss the impact of Tchaikovsky's Violin Concerto, or general melodic/harmonic vocabulary on Williams, but there are a half dozen or so pieces closer in sound and chronology to the Han Solo and the Princess that I'd argue are more likely models for the theme -- passages from Rachmaninoff, Gliere, Rózsa, Khachaturian, etc.. Granted, all of whom were influenced in turn by Tchaik! 

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Wow! @Chen G.

This analysis is absolutely fantastic! I'd been looking forward to you writing something like this for a while, not having realized you already wrote it 6 months ago!

 

I stumbled on this by accident because I misclicked on the JWFan Reviews section instead of the JWFan section looking for an update about the recent spamposts, I usually don't read the Reviews section much. I'm very glad to have found this though! Perhaps if it was in the General Discussion section more people might see it

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Best thing to do is not even bother with clicking into the various forums.  Just click "Unread Content"

 

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That shows you anything new from across all the forums. Easy to click open the ones you want to read and ignore the rest.

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4 minutes ago, enderdrag64 said:

This analysis is absolutely fantastic! I'd been looking forward to you writing something like this for a while, not having realized you already wrote it 6 months ago!

 

Thank you!

 

It did grow into something of a behemoth, but at least its fairly thorough.

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