Why on earth would a film score ever need 230 (or 550) musicians?

[Bayesian 1,367]

I liked the posts informing about historic examples of large musical forces in classical and film music—very interesting to read. 
 

So maybe Fallout’s 230 musicians aren’t necessarily over-the-top. But 550 for DR Part 1 is still ridiculous to me. I also no longer harbor much trust that Balfe did it for the musicians’ benefit. The supposed “inspiration” from Russian composers, trying to claim that in situ recording adds something precious to the music, name-dropping the Swiss Drum Corps and the top-rank cities he went to, and touting a 35-person bongo session— all of it reeks of Balfe shouting, “BE IMPRESSED WITH ME!!”
 

Other composers let their music speak for themselves. It seems like it’s only RCP guys who annoyingly insist on using the PR full-court press. If only the music was deserving of it. 

[Mephariel 453]

5 hours ago, Bayesian said:

I liked the posts informing about historic examples of large musical forces in classical and film music—very interesting to read. 
 

So maybe Fallout’s 230 musicians aren’t necessarily over-the-top. But 550 for DR Part 1 is still ridiculous to me. I also no longer harbor much trust that Balfe did it for the musicians’ benefit. The supposed “inspiration” from Russian composers, trying to claim that in situ recording adds something precious to the music, name-dropping the Swiss Drum Corps and the top-rank cities he went to, and touting a 35-person bongo session— all of it reeks of Balfe shouting, “BE IMPRESSED WITH ME!!”
 

Other composers let their music speak for themselves. It seems like it’s only RCP guys who annoyingly insist on using the PR full-court press. If only the music was deserving of it. 

 

"Other composers let their music speak for themselves." Once again, this board never fails to amaze me.  

 

Just recently from Ludwig Göransson on Oppenheimer: “In the end, we recorded music that surpassed what I believed to be humanly possible." Balfe never said anything this bold. 

 

Remember Brian Tyler doing press for Those Who Wish Me Dead? In an interview for the film, Tyler talked about how he actually set fire to a cello during the score’s recording sessions, in order to provide a “unique and inspiring” sound for the movie and how it canters around the tonal idea and mortal danger of fire. This was first posted on Fimtracks and several posters immediately pointed out what a great salesman Tyler was.

 

And then there was Bear McCreary on Rings of Power: "I’ve been thinking about it my whole life. I formed an image in my mind of what I wanted those themes to feel like, and truly, when I wrote those themes, the only concern was if the visuals would live up to them."

 

Should we not mention Elfman claiming that his Batman theme was the only Batman theme? That is not pumping up his own music? 

 

  

[Chen G. 4,038]

11 hours ago, Bayesian said:

I liked the posts informing about historic examples of large musical forces in classical and film music—very interesting to read. 

 

Its a nice little hobby of mine. In and of itself it amounts to little more than trivia because what matter is how the forces are used: Christian Thielemann, in his book, wonders how The Flying Dutchman has by far the smallest orchestra of Wagner's works but, even after Wagner reorchestrated it tone down the brassiness, "makes far and away the most noise."

 

But just for sport:

 

	Berlioz, Requiem	Wagner, Der Ring Des Nibelungen	Mahler 8	Strauss, Alpine Symphony	Schoenberg, Gurre-Lieder	Havergal, The Gothic
violins	25+25	16+16	16+16	18+16	20+20	20+20
violas	20	12	12+	12	16	16
violoncelli	20	12	10+	10	16	14
contrabasses	18	8	8+	8	12	12
harps	0	6	2+	2	4	2
horns	12	8	8	8+12	10	8+8
trumpets	4+16	4	8	4+2	7	7+8
trombones	16	4	7	4+2	7	5+8
tubas	4+6	1	1	2	1	4+8
flutes and piccoli	4	4	6	4	8	8
oboes	4	4	5	4	5	8
clarinets	4	4	5	4	7	11
bassoons	8	3	5	4	5	5
keyboards			4	2	1	2
timpanists	10	1	1	2	2	2+4
percussionists		18	4		6	8
Choir	210+	70	130+		200+	200+
additionals		5 cow horns	1 mandolin

 

And the same for a few film scores or film score cycles whose forces I know pretty well off the top of my head:

 

	Shore, Lord of the Rings	Williams, Star Wars	Powel, How to Train your Dragon
violins	16+16	16+14	16+14
violas	12	14	12
violoncelli	10	10	10
contrabasses	8	8	8
harps	2	3	2
horns	8	8	12
trumpets	8	5	4
trombones	7	4	6
tubas	2	2	1
flutes and piccoli	4	5	3
oboes	4	5	3
clarinets	4	4	3
bassoons	3	4	3
keyboards	3	3	1
timpanists	2	2	1
percussionists	6	8	8
Choir	160+	150+	60+
additionals	13 Gamelan, 20 didgeridoos, approximately ten other instrumentalists (rhaita, shakuhachi, et al)	3 saxophones, cretan lyre, cumbus	approximately ten more instrumentalists (warpipes, hardinfelle et al)

 

 

Basically, I would say for a late-Romantic-styled film score, a 90-100 piece orchestra is par for the course. I'd put 120 in "large." The biggest Schoenberg, Havergal and Berlioz pieces are of about 160 players, which represents a high upper end, choir and bands notwithstanding.

[Brónach 1,303]

i'm stll amused that the name rhaita comes from gaita

[Chen G. 4,038]

1 hour ago, Brónach said:

haita comes from gaita

 

I speak arabic, and its sometimes a little bit hard to transliterate these things to convey the right pronounciation. Ghaita probably hits closest to the mark.

 

But that's a good sequitur: if the size of the orchestra is used as a shorthand for how loud it gets, a ghaita or a bagpipes gets much louder than a sizable brass section...

 

I intentionally didn't include some pieces meant for outdoors performance like Berlioz Grande symphonie funèbre et triomphale (which has like 30 clarinets it in) or some Wagner pieces, because that feels a little unfair.

[Brónach 1,303]

in this place, a gaita is only a gaita if it has a bag (and by extension bagpipes from other countries get named gaitas). however in others it used to mean any shawn as well.

[GerateWohl 4,487]

On 26/07/2023 at 12:59 AM, Bayesian said:

I can’t wait for the PR for the score to DR Part 2. I fully expect to read that Balfe recorded a hundred-strong Slavic male choir in the bowels of a decommissioned nuclear sub. You know, so we the audience really get to understand the Entity. All in a year’s work for this brave musical pioneer.

And how they record then the music for the scenes, that take place in space.

[Edmilson 7,641]

6 hours ago, Mephariel said:

 

"Other composers let their music speak for themselves." Once again, this board never fails to amaze me.  

 

Just recently from Ludwig Göransson on Oppenheimer: “In the end, we recorded music that surpassed what I believed to be humanly possible." Balfe never said anything this bold. 

 

Remember Brian Tyler doing press for Those Who Wish Me Dead? In an interview for the film, Tyler talked about how he actually set fire to a cello during the score’s recording sessions, in order to provide a “unique and inspiring” sound for the movie and how it canters around the tonal idea and mortal danger of fire. This was first posted on Fimtracks and several posters immediately pointed out what a great salesman Tyler was.

 

And then there was Bear McCreary on Rings of Power: "I’ve been thinking about it my whole life. I formed an image in my mind of what I wanted those themes to feel like, and truly, when I wrote those themes, the only concern was if the visuals would live up to them."

 

Should we not mention Elfman claiming that his Batman theme was the only Batman theme? That is not pumping up his own music? 

 

  

People criticizing Balfe, Zimmer and Remote Control composers: A

Zimmer shills:

 

[GerateWohl 4,487]

There are always two ways to be extraordinary:

• The hard way: Do extraordinarily brillant (requires talent) 
• The easy way: Do extraordinarily stupid (requires nothing)

 

[Bayesian 1,367]

2 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

There are always two ways to be extraordinary:

• The hard way: Do extraordinarily brillant (requires talent) 
• The easy way: Do extraordinarily stupid (requires nothing)

 

Post of the week. And it was written on Monday. 

[thestat 359]

As many have pointed out, this is an attention-grabbing social media gimmick with no substance. It generates headlines in Variety and brings attention to the film that a score by a more talented yet less rambunctious composer would not do without the (unnecessary) spectacle. Very much part of the stunt-of-the-year philosophy that the MI films now are. I don't think the gimmick has carried much weight though outside of film music circles

[DarthDementous 1,060]

I think this thread has shown one thing that we can all agree on:

It's not about the size, but how you use it 

[Brónach 1,303]

what about 230 or 550 composers?