Empire Strikes Back-like Soundtracks

[Saxman717 22]

To me, JW's Empire Strikes Back soundtrack is the most perfect soundtrack ever. It reuses and brilliantly develops the old themes from the 1st film, but then it goes on to unveil countless other brilliant themes and leimotifs. It is unbelievable. There are so many little orchestral nuances that he adds in like a flute part here, a harp run there, and his counterpoint and thematic development techniques are at their peak. He really didn't hold back at all......he poured everything into this and the result was teh perfect soundtrack. Somehow, it perfectly complements every single scene, and yet is seamless in its soundtrack presentation and close-to-seamless in the actual final cut of the film.

I'm wondering two things.......first, have people noticed this about the ESB soundtrack? Has anyone noticed that it is probably the most perfect orchestrl soundtrack ever writteN? And second, I'm really wondering if there are ANY soundtracks that stand up to this one. Any soundtracks that are so similar in thematic strength, development, and style? I really really want to discover another soundtack as brilliant as this one.

If no soundtracks really stand up to it, how about orchestral pieces? Is there any classical music out there that could be compared to the ESB soundtrack?

-Steve *eagerly waiting to listen to some music as amazing as the ESB soundtrack"

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Other soundtracks that are up to par with TESB, although they have a very different style.

Conan The Barbarian- Basil Poledouris.

Star Trek: The Motion Picture- Jerry Goldsmith

E.T. The Extra Terrestrial- John T. Williams.

Tomorrow Never Dies- David Arnold (a controversial choice perhaps)

Braveheart- James Horner

All these are in every way perfect, and represent the best that has ever been written for film.

Stefancos-

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

I agree with Stefan's first three, but not his other two. There are other scores that could be mentioned as being close to ESB in some way or another, though those that come to my mind right now don't really match your criteria (e.g. Matrix, which has hardly any themes at all). I do believe that Williams' own Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone probably is up there with ESB though.

Marian - who thinks ESB is slightly overrated.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I do believe that Williams' own Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone probably is up there with ESB though.

Oh please, it's very good, but nowere near TESB's league

Marian - who thinks ESB is slightly overrated.

Stefancos- who thinks TESB cannot be overrated

[Lurker 5]

Superman - The Movie.

Neil

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Hmmm...The score is OK, but the film is so dated, and it's corny and miscast.

Stefancos-

[King Mark 3,631]

I'll add Krull,by James Horner, to the list.

K.M.

[StrongBad992648 0]

You know...I have to agree with Stefancos on Tomorrow Never Dies.

I think that it blends orchestral and techno music so well that it locks in perfectly.

Not to mention that his melodies are very good, emotional, and powerful. I love it during White Knight when it breaks into that theme that KD Lang sings later on the soundtrack...it's so heroic...almost like a superhero...and let's face it...that's what Bond has become!

I really enjoy the soundtrack...and the movie. However...it's sequel...completely horrible...two words Denise Richards...lol. The girl acts like she doesn't even know what the square root of 4 is! And she's supposed to be a scientist!

But don't worry Stefancos...I completely agree with you on this underrated soundtrack.

[Morlock 11]

I've always liked Tommorw Never Dies, movie and score. IMO it's the best Brosnan Bond, with one of the best villains of the entire series.

I can't really elaborate as to why I love the score, I just do. Althogh some of it has to be that my expectations of Arnold were very low (not an ID4 fan), and I was just swept away by it.

I also agree with Steef about TESB- cannot be overrated- and Superman- dated and miscast.

I think Conan is great, but not to TESB ranking, and I was never as taken with E.T. as was the rest of humanity (Movie and score). And also I've found I have some anti Star Trek virus in me- I don't like the show (used to though), and I don't like any of the music, except of course for the Enterprise theme.

Morlock- who's constantly surprised by how much he agrees with Stefancos

[Justin 2]

I believe it's my turn to jump in here and mention Raiders of the Lost Ark.

Justin -Amazed at how much everybody likes ESB.

[fommes 153]

Soundtracks that I consider to be as great as TESB:

Tomorrow Never Dies: I fully agree with Stefancos, however, it doesn't match the development criterium, as the second half is slightly different in style than the first half, due to the non-existent post-production schedule I guess.

Raiders and the Temple of Doom. Without doubt. Perfect companions to the films and perfect stand-alones to listen to. The Last Crusade very nearly.

Finally, maybe unexpectedly, The Nightmare Before Christmas. Elfman's best up-to-date. He probably won't be topping it in the near future, however, considering his last scores...

Lotman - listening to Jaws 2

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

How could I forget to mention The Fury? That certainly is at least on the level of ESB. Also, scores like Korngold's swashbuckling scores and Rozsa's Ben-Hur must be included.

Marian - who shouldn't have forgotten.

The Edge (Jerry Goldsmith)

[Adam 1]

My only disagreement with the Steve is that, although TESB is my favorite, I don't necessarily see it as a case where "he poured everything into this" or was at his peak technique-wise. I could be wrong but as I watch the various movies it seems to me that a lot of credit goes to the movie itself which provided opportunities for a rich, epic score in a way that few films ever do. The impression I get of JW is that, within the world of the particular film that he is scoring, he rarely holds back. Its just that certain films are more limiting or less conduscive to music that we most want to hear or whatever. For example, I could argue that his score for Presumed Innocent was as appropriate for Presumed Innocent as the TESB score was for TESB. Its just that the nature of the film, Presumed Innocent, wasn't conducive to the kind of music that most people are going to enjoy as much on its own. Or if we compare the way AOTC was structured and directed with the way that TESB was, I think this further draws out my point.

A lot of the scores mentioned are wonderful, IMO. There's obviously subjectivity involved so it would be hard for me to recommend anything with total confidence. For example, its great to see there are several strong advocates, Marian and others, for The Fury. Its a wonderful score but for reasons of personal taste, I suppose, I don't listen to it as often as many others (though the Epilogue is a definite favorite). Who knows where you'd come down? Probably best to rent the movies and decide what you think of the score before buying it. The music is usually better, anyway, when you know the context with which it was written for.

- Adam, having major log-in issues

[Pelzter 0]

I can't believe how TESB can rightfully be compared by Tomorrow Never Dies or The Fury... I mean, both of these are good, definitly, but a Star Wars score, and a classic one at that, is certainly a force to be dealt with, and neither a James Bond score nor a 1978 horror score can compete, IMO.

--Pelzter, puzzled by these comparisons...

[nja 0]

. . .  a Star Wars score, and a classic one at that, is certainly a force to be dealt with, and neither a James Bond score nor a 1978 horror score can compete, IMO.

I'm glad somebody finally said it. People! Okay, so there are other composers out there besides JW and some really sharp non-JW scores

BUT

TESB is on a whole different plane of compositional quality as are the majority of JW scores. Its not just that they feature strong moments of composition its that they are so consistently strong (through the whole film).

Consistency- there's your distinction (IMHO).

Forgive the tone- I just had to let it out.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

but a Star Wars score, and a classic one at that, is certainly a force to be dealt with, and neither a James Bond score nor a 1978 horror score can compete, IMO.

--Pelzter, puzzled by these comparisons...

Fine, you have your predjudices, and I will have mine.

Stefancos- Who thinks The Fury and Tomorrow Never Dies are both superiour to the scores for TPM and AOTC.

[Hector J. Guzman 1]

Superman, and E.T. are two of the best scores by Williams. As someone said, Harry Potter... is not even in the same league as Empire and the two I mentioned before.

Music from L.A. Confidential

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Music from L.A. Confidential

Back on a Goldsmith kick, Hector?

Stefancos- enjoying a LOTR kick.

[Hector J. Guzman 1]

It´s Goldsmith week no. 3. It had been a while since I listened a lot of Goldsmith. the 13th Warrior started the trend I think

still L.A. Confidential

[JoeinAR 1,949]

TESB is somewhat overrated, its not as good as Star Wars.

Hector is right, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone is not in the same league as ESB, its in a better league, as in a better score.

Someone tell me why JAWS and Close Encounters of the Third Kind haven't been mentioned yet.

They are every bit as good if not better than ESB.

[Hector J. Guzman 1]

Nopee, Harry Potter, as good as the themes are is not as good as ESB.

I however do agree on Close Encounters, I can´t believe I forgot that one.

[ocelot 508]

I think the Harry Potter series is up there with the Star Wars scores. And why has no one mentioned Hook? The array of themes and developments are astounding in this one film. And yes, Korngold, Steiner and all the others back then in the Golden Era had scores that far surpass all those today.

[Hector J. Guzman 1]

Ah, Hook, gosh darn it! Keep forgeting all of them all of a sudden.

Music from Air Force One

[Forge 0]

ESB is without a shadow of doubt my favourite Williams score and may I add completely eclipses ATOC in both theme content and sheer excitement. The "The Battle of Hoth" track is particularly stunning.

I agree with King Mark, the music to Krull by James Horner is a worthy contender. It is crammed full with themes and the Love theme is especially good. Its Horners best score and just pips Startrek 2 to the top of Horner classics.

[Adam 1]

Partly its a matter of what criteria are we using.

If we’re talking about what scores are a consistently good listening experience then I would expect to have lots of diagreement. People value different things in music and I see no reason why someone shouldn’t take as much pleasure from a James Bond score, Harry Potter, The Fury or

whatever the case might be. John Williams’ favorite, he says, is Close Encounters, which has now been mentioned. He’s less a fan of his own score, TESB, then many of us apparently. But I just see this as normal human difference in tastes. There are people who would prefer Stanley and Iris because they dislike the brashness of TESB. Come to think of it... 99% of the world doesn’t even like film music, particularly.

If we’re talking about the value of a score from the point of view of its relationship to the movie, then that can be discussed a little bit more objectively, I think. And by that criteria, I regard Sleepers is a great score even if I hardly listen to it or a 15 minute synthesizer score can be great or a James Bond score can be great or whatever the case may be.

I guess I'm not as confident in declaring certain Williams scores "better" because its not clear to me what criteria people are using. Maybe its just a way of stating a preference in which case this says much more about our own personal quirks of taste than the score itself. Much easier for me to talk about favorites as Forge just did.

- Adam

[Forge 0]

Here’s my feelings on what makes a great score. A good score is one which complements a movie, emphasising emotional development and reinforcing the directors vision and story. A great score is one which not only does the above but also shines on its own!

[Lurker 5]

I mean, both of these are good, definitly, but a Star Wars score, and a classic one at that, is certainly a force to be dealt with, and neither a James Bond score nor a 1978 horror score can compete, IMO.

Pelzter, do you know these scores? I'm not the biggest Tomorrow Never Dies advocate here (you want to hear a great Bond score, check out You Only Live Twice), you seem to dismiss these scores way to easily. What do you mean The Fury is only "a 1978 horror score"? So what? It's a fabulous score, and it has something The Empire Strike Back doesn't have.....intelligence. The Fury is a very smart score. The whole thing runs 55 minutes in a 2 hour movie (and not all of that 55 minutes was even used). It's very well spotted and the music is very effective when it's needed. TESB on the other hand is scored wall to wall, and isn't very effficient in the film. Sometimes scenes can play quite well without music. Wisely, some cues were "dialed out" in the film. Having all this music can make for a good listen on the soundtrack album, but from a film making standpoint it demonstrates a lack of vision on the film makers part. They should know when music is needed and when it's not.

Neil

[Adam 1]

Here’s my feelings on what makes a great score. A good score is one which complements a movie, emphasising emotional development and reinforcing the directors vision and story. A great score is one which not only does the above but also shines on its own!

I guess we disagree somewhat. There are scores I would consider great but I don't listen to very often. So it doesn't seem a composer should be marked down for writing for a film that only needs 10 minutes of modernistic, non-thematic music so long as it seems like the right score for the movie. It might be a less than great listening experience but the perfect score for that movie. It might be just as challenging and just as impressive in its own way as a film score.

I guess I'm basing this on the idea that any movie has the potential for a great score so long as a composer is able to find its "soul", so to speak, and communicate that musically. And its worth noting that people will differ widely in their interpretation of what "shines on its own".

- Adam

[nja 0]

I have heard JW say on several occasions that his primary objective is doing whatever music best fits the film and any way in which the music is enjoyable beyond the film is a bonus.

Here?s my feelings on what makes a great score. A good score is one which complements a movie, emphasising emotional development and reinforcing the directors vision and story. A great score is one which not only does the above but also shines on its own!

I guess we disagree somewhat. There are scores I would consider great but I don't listen to very often. So it doesn't seem a composer should be marked down for writing for a film that only needs 10 minutes of modernistic, non-thematic music so long as it seems like the right score for the movie. It might be a less than great listening experience but the perfect score for that movie. It might be just as challenging and just as impressive in its own way as a film score.

I guess I'm basing this on the idea that any movie has the potential for a great score so long as a composer is able to find its "soul", so to speak, and communicate that musically. And its worth noting that people will differ widely in their interpretation of what "shines on its own".

- Adam

Is there not a weee bit of semantic confusion here. I might say a film was well-scored even if it only contained five minutes of stuff not worth putting on the turntable because that's what the film needed.

Referring to "a great score," however seems to imply an independent coherency to the music that makes it interesting apart from the film.

A connotational difference that some would question, but perhaps one worth considering.

[Adam 1]

I think that a lot of people, maybe most people, are looking for "independent coherancy" when they judge a score. And I'm arguing that perhaps we shouldn't when it comes to film scores. Its partly a matter of semantics, you're right, but I think it makes sense to have a separate evaluation of something's value as music as compared with its value as a film score. A film score can be evaluated on the terms with which it was created, as a contribution to a larger product, the film.

That's not to say "independent coherancy" isn't important since we're not collecting soundtracks as mere academic studies but to enjoy and listen to. Its just that a fair evaluation of a film score shouldn't take this into account because its not really fair to the composer. For example, its not JW's fault that Presumed Innocent is a tiny, dialog driven movie with very little emotional range where music has to play a role that might make it less impressive in pure musical terms. So, in evaluating his effort, his film film score, I look at the movie and I try to judge what were the requirements and limitations of the movie and judge, as best as I can, how well he satisfied the needs of the film. I just think that its better to separate the criteria somehow and having a stricter definition what constitutes the value of a film score seems like a good way to do this. But thanks for your response which was helpful in clarifying my own thoughts about this.

- Adam

[Adam 1]

I mean, both of these are good, definitly, but a Star Wars score, and a classic one at that, is certainly a force to be dealt with, and neither a James Bond score nor a 1978 horror score can compete, IMO.

Pelter, do you know these scores? I'm not the biggest Tomorrow Never Dies advocate here (you want to hear a great Bond score, check out You Only Live Twice), you seem to dismiss these scores way to easily. What do you mean The Fury is only "a 1978 horror score"? So what? It's a fabulous score, and it has something The Empire Strike Back doesn't have.....intelligence. The Fury is a very smart score. The whole thing runs 55 minutes in a 2 hour movie (and not all of that 55 minutes was even used). It's very well spotted and the music is very effective when it's needed. TESB on the other hand is scored wall to wall, and isn't very effficient in the film. Sometimes scenes can play quite well without music. Wisely, some cues were "dialed out" in the film. Having all this music can make for a good listen on the soundtrack album, but from a film making standpoint it demonstrates a lack of vision on the film makers part. They should know when music is needed and when it's not.

Neil

Its probably bad form for me to respond to this since you were directing it to Peltzer and I've already posted half a book in this thread. But this really is going to be my last day for awhile (I promise) so hopefully I can be forgiven. And though I disagree to a certain extent, I appreciate that you explained your position in a way that was very on point. Generally, I'm left wondering where people are coming from when they declare something to be better.

I see the danger in having a lot of music in the TESB because its demanding a lot of attention from the audience and a potential loss in "efficiency". On the other hand, the movie as I see it, seemed to be calling out for wall-to-wall music so that the criticism, if accurate, would be

a more appropriate criticism for the way the film was directed and edited and not so much the way it was spotted, I think. When I look at the scenes where music was left out, and having the benefit of hearing the material that was supposed to appear, I came to the opposite conclusion - that the scenes would seem more compelling with the music left in. So, in a sense, I would have liked more music in the movie and would have even considered it a more intelligent choice given the movie JW was working with. In general, I think that for people who really like the movie, the experience will be enhanced. Others who buy into it less might find the music wearying. But I think his job is to score the movie as is and let its virtues or faults fall where they may. But your point of view is certainly legitimate and I could be making a wrong judgement about this.

But, either way, there is still an enourmous amount of intelligence that goes into the score for TESB - creating the right thematic identification, the right pacing, the right sound and texture, capturing the overall arc and feel of the film as well as all the individual scenes and the minutia of detail within the scene, etc. And The Fury has all of this, too of course, which would make it difficult for me to make a judgement about one or the other being better. But, again, I do appreciate that you explained where you were coming from and sorry to go on so long, yet again.

- Adam

[King Mark 3,631]

I don't have a problem with the unscored segments of ESB,the film doesn't suffer from it(as long as we have the intended score on c.d.).

My biggest problem is with the (mostly)unscored Podrace in TPM .

K.M.

[Adam 1]

I've tried cueing up some of the unused cues with the movie and found that in at least a couple of places it added quite a lot. The net effect for a long movie like this is probably pretty slight either direction but, at least, in isolation the scenes seemed improved to me. For example, the Luke/Vader duel where Luke loses his lightsaber takes on a much greater sense of drama with the music. And even the earlier scenes on Hoth would have moved a lot quicker with the music he wrote. It wasn't crucial to have music and it works fine without it for the most part but that's not to say a scene doesn't benefit from scoring. Ultimately, I think Lucas or somebody made the same judgement as Neil, which could be correct, that the audience needed more breaks, so to speak.

- Adam

[Chris ChrusherComix 46]

The Empire Strikes Back is in a league all it's own.

In my opinion, Williams' streak of 1977 (Starting with Star Wars) through 1983 (Ending with Return Of The Jedi), he was at the top of his form.

Not saying that anything before or since isn't great... but that period was pure magic.

-Star Wars (Started the streak. Flawless film score to a great film.)

-Black Sunday (The score is dark and great. Needs a legit release. The boots are all poor-sounding. Unsure... was this pre, or post-Star Wars?)

-CE3K (I'm not a big fan of this film, OR score, but I can't argue how excellent it works.)

-Jaws 2 (The movie sucks other than the fact that it gave Williams something to write this classic to.)

-The Fury (I like the movie, but the score is second to only ESB in my book.)

-Superman: The Movie (Can't argue how great this score works in this excellent film.)

-Dracula (I've never seen the whole thing, but the parts I did see were perfect with the music.)

-1941 (A comedy score which I feel is vastly overrated. I even liked the silly movie, LOL.)

-TESB (My personal unmatched rival in scores and films.)

-Raiders Of The Lost Ark (Perfect film & score.)

-E.T. (This is the perfect example how a film makes or breaks a film. And this score MADE this film.)

-Return Of The Jedi (I recently fell in love with this score again- the sound quality on the SE made me lose favor in it... but the Boxed Set regained it).

The only exceptions in this era come from the ones I've never seen, although I have the scores:

-Heartbeeps (I never saw this one, so I cannot say. If I saw it, it was a LONG time ago & I forgot.)

-Yes Giorgio (OK, he only did the main theme, and I've never seen it, so I can't say.)

-Monsignor (Never seen it, but the soundtrack has the same feel to it as the rest in this period.)

You could stretch the streak out a few years before and after to include scores like Jaws and Indy:TOD, but that is just my feeling personally. The original Star Wars Trilogy and pretty much every score inbetween them.

I'll agree with Steef on Braveheart. Although that is one film I wished Williams did too. My DISTANT favorite from Horner, but still think Williams would have done something unbelieveable.

Bond scores? You guys are really that high on them? I've never gotten into them, although I have nothing against them either.

[Chris ChrusherComix 46]

Potter scores and movies are the MOST overrated things I've ever seen. The 1st one was enough for me, I haven't even tried to watch the 2nd one yet.

This is coming FROM a JOHN WILLIAMS FAN!?

Yes. I think the whole franchise is stupid.

I personally feel that Williams should have scored the LOTR franchise instead. Because I liked the 1st one despite the fact that I though the score was boring drivel. And although I did like the 1st one, I still haven't seen the 2nd LOTR yet either.

I'll just wait for DVD, PPV, or cable TV.

There, I said it. I HATE HARRY POTTER! LOL!

[JoeinAR 1,949]

poor poor Chris.

you need to talk to KM.

[Chris ChrusherComix 46]

I did talk to KM. I told him I hated Potter last year I think.

The funny thing is I liked the CD score when I 1st heard it, then soured on it, while KM was oddly the opposite, NOT liking the CD score at first and then learning to like it more.

[King Mark 3,631]

well,just like the books,the trick is to start reading at the third one,because I had lost interest in the middle of the second one last year.

and I still have my reservations about the movies and the scores(not the themes,which are top notch,but a lot of the underscore,as I said in another thread.)

K.M.

[Chris ChrusherComix 46]

Yes, perhaps that's it. KM may have pointed out a point that I didn't realize to say until he mentioned it: The underscore.

It just didn't impress me in the 1st score (film and CD) and the 2nd CD (waiting to see the film). There are some moments in Potter that should have had cooler music... I just haven't been impressed.

Of course, several of the themes are good, but not as good as some of his themes for Star Wars or Indiana Jones franchises. I guess I like a more adult-themed adventure. And yes, even Star Wars is more adult than Potter, IMO, which I find absolutely NO appeal in. I know many of you are big Potter fans, and it's not meant to be an insult for people that DO like/love it... but for me, the Potter scores and movies are NOT in the upper echelon in my favorite film score/movies lists.

[MSM 126]

I think that it blends orchestral and techno music so well that it locks in perfectly.

Which one is better, TND or TWINE?

I really enjoy the soundtrack...and the movie.  However...it's sequel...completely horrible...two words Denise Richards...lol.  The girl acts like she doesn't even know what the square root of 4 is!  And she's supposed to be a scientist!  

Yeah... don't tell me you'd rather saw a smart girl than Denise Richards in TWINE...

Regarding the topic, I think Jurassic Park is up there with TESB. It's full of thematic beauty and strikingly coherent.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

I think the Potter scores, particularly the first one, are much more than just great themes. It's the use of themes, and their variations, that amazes me, and a lot of this is in the underscore. That and the orchestrations make it considerably more complex than ESB, IMHO, which is from an era when Williams wrote high-quality scores for blockbuster movies, but left the really complex stuff for smaller films like The Fury.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

And yes, even Star Wars is more adult than Potter, IMO

all I can say to that is YIPPEE.....

Joe, watching Chris' statement go up in flames like a Trade Federation Starship.

Chris' basic point I do understand, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone is about a group of 6th graders(as measured in the US). As far as which is more adult TPM, and AOTC vs HPSS and HPCOS, I use my statement above.

[ocelot 508]

lord have mercy

[Justin 2]

TESB on the other hand is scored wall to wall, and isn't very effficient in the film.  Sometimes scenes can play quite well without music.  Wisely, some cues were "dialed out" in the film.  Having all this music can make for a good listen on the soundtrack album, but from a film making standpoint it demonstrates a lack of vision on the film makers part.  They should know when music is needed and when it's not.

While I don't completly agree in the case of ESB, I do think this is the biggest problem with HP both films need more silence.

Justin -Who thinks less is indeed more.

[ymenard 54]

ESB-like soundtracks? Well, JW went through a short, yet prolific Gothic era. TESB is the apogee of that period. You can include "The Fury" in that, "Jaws 2" but especially, "Dracula".

[Albaicin 0]

What strikes me most about TESB, are the rich orchestral textures and the way in which different themes and subthemes are developed in multiple layers.

Comparable soundtracks are, IMHO:

- Superman

- Hook

- Cutthroat Island (Debney)

- Star Trek: the Movie (Goldsmith)

- Young Sherlock Holmes (Broughton)

- Krull or Willow (Horner)

- The Adventures of Robin Hood (Korngold)

And comparable classical orchestral works:

- Daphnis et Chloe (Ravel)

- Rachmaninov's second symphony

- Mahler's eigth symphony

- Alpine Symphony (Richard Strauss)

- Romeo and Juliet (Prokofiev)

- Enigma Variations (Elgar)

Anyway, in terms of orchestral writing, I think that it is difficult to find such an impressive and most perfect score as TESB.

[nja 0]

 JW went through a short, yet prolific Gothic era.  TESB is the apogee of that period.  You can include "The Fury" in that, "Jaws 2" but especially, "Dracula".

???

If so, where did 1941 come from (written in 1979)? If JW was in a "gothic period" he sure got out of it quickly.

Perhaps, just perhaps, three of his darker scores happened to fall within a few years time.

I would be hesitant to make anything out of what was likely coincidence- and certainly think twice before calling it a period.

[ymenard 54]

It's not because you are in that period that you can't derogate outside of it. It's like his current period, he still made a "pause" for CMIYC, similar to "1941". I wouldn't call having almost your 3 darkest score almost one after the other, a coincidence.

[Morn 8]

No one said Ben Hur, King of Kings, Cleopatra or Spartacus??

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Superman - The Movie.

Neil

A few weeks ago, I would have thought that choice could only be based on fanatism. But I discovered this score while on the coast, and I couldn't agree more. The most similar score to The Empire Strikes Back, in style, quality and proportions is this one.

It's a lot more upbeat, though, in case that was the reason you liked TESB. But if it isn't, I think it's the best choice you can make.