Cinema Paradiso (film & score)

[Jurassic Shark 12,097]

I was surprised to find this film and its score don't have a thread here.

 

For starters; anybody knows if any of the two extended cuts are available on blu?

[GerateWohl 4,385]

Never seen the movie. 

Is it good?

 

The score is lovely. 

[Jurassic Shark 12,097]

Yeah, I'd say it's a good movie. Some dodgy make-up work, otherwise I can't remember anything negative about it, except that there's a few lose threads in the regular, shortened release.

[Thor 7,531]

The film is a classic and reference point. 

 

I love the score, of course, but it's in that 'evergreen' category that's been kinda overplayed over the years. In recent years, I find myself listening more to the less famous Morricone titles, than the THE MISSIONs and spaghetti westerns and CINEMA PARADISOs of this world.

[Loert 2,515]

I ugly-cried at the ending when I first saw it. One of my favourite films of all time.

 

The score is really good. I find it slightly ironic that the most famous theme from the movie was written not by Ennio Morricone, but by his son. At least, that's what I've heard, the reality might be different.

 

 

[Edmilson 7,475]

Yeah, I think the famous Love Theme from Cinema Paradiso is actually written by his son Andrea Morricone. Don't know why Andrea's career didn't take off after writing such an internationally famous and iconic theme. Maybe too busy helping papa?

 

Either way, I saw the movie once as a kid and remember pretty much nothing, except for the fact that the DVD I saw began the movie with a blue screen enumerating all the numerous awards the movie had won. I didn't even know any of those awards but I remember feeling "wow, this must be the greatest movie masterpiece of all time to have won all that stuff!".

 

And the use of the Love Theme in The Simpsons was more memorable:

 

 

Always LOLed at the Alien 3 reference 

[Andy 4,147]

I haven’t seen the film or heard the score. 
 

All I can say is that I talked to Ke Huy Quan once at a convention about film music and he says CP is his absolute favorite.  

[Jurassic Shark 12,097]

5 minutes ago, Andy said:

All I can say is that I talked to Ke Huy Quan once at a convention about film music and he says CP is his absolute favorite.  

 

And you didn't feel compelled to watch the film or listen to the score?

[Andy 4,147]

I’m too busy watching trash cinema and b movies. 
 

It’s on my list. 

[Jurassic Shark 12,097]

5 minutes ago, Andy said:

b movies

 

You can watch Star Wars only that many times.

[filmmusic 1,843]

10 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

anybody knows if any of the two extended cuts are available on blu?

2 extended cuts?

I only know of one, which is available (I have this release https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Cinema-Paradiso-Blu-ray/170340/), but I haven't seen it.

I have read that it ruins the movie and the pacing, which of course I love.

[Jurassic Shark 12,097]

15 minutes ago, filmmusic said:

2 extended cuts?

I only know of one, which is available (I have this release https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Cinema-Paradiso-Blu-ray/170340/), but I haven't seen it.

I have read that it ruins the movie and the pacing, which of course I love.

 

Thanks! Arrow it is then.

 

The third cut is between the two others in length, see IMDB.

[JWScores 28]

3 hours ago, Loert said:

I ugly-cried at the ending when I first saw it. One of my favourite films of all time.

 

The score is really good. I find it slightly ironic that the most famous theme from the movie was written not by Ennio Morricone, but by his son. At least, that's what I've heard, the reality might be different.

 

 

It's also one of my very favourite films. Morricone's son (Andrea) composed the melody and the harmony of the love theme (except maybe for small corrections); it is not known beyond doubt how much of the various arrangements and orchestrations of that theme were done by him, or by Ennio. For example, the first 1:20 of this track, 

 

features a particular compositional technique ("suspended strings") which is typical of Ennio. I believe he invented it, and you can hear it in several of his non-film pieces as well as in many of his other film scores: there is almost always at least one theme presented in this fashion. So, this arrangement was done either by Ennio, or by his son but with a clear intention to follow that style. We cannot be sure about who did what in the other (more "standard") arrangements featured in the film score.

 

1 hour ago, filmmusic said:

2 extended cuts?

I only know of one, which is available (I have this release https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Cinema-Paradiso-Blu-ray/170340/), but I haven't seen it.

I have read that it ruins the movie and the pacing, which of course I love.

 

I have to disagree with this. If possible, I strongly recommend to only watch the full director's cut (174 minutes), and nothing else. The final part of the movie, which was largely removed or shortened in previous cut releases, is absolutely essential to understand the story and its meaning.

 

 

 

11 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Yeah, I'd say it's a good movie. Some dodgy make-up work, otherwise I can't remember anything negative about it, except that there's a few lose threads in the regular, shortened release.

 

The lose threads are resolved in the full director's cut. Go for it!

[filmmusic 1,843]

1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Thanks! Arrow it is then.

If you have a 4K capability there's an Arrow UHD too! (with the director's cut on regular blu-ray)

https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Cinema-Paradiso-4K-Blu-ray/271419/

[Marian Schedenig 8,212]

On 08/04/2024 at 8:07 PM, Jurassic Shark said:

On 08/04/2024 at 8:02 PM, Andy said:

All I can say is that I talked to Ke Huy Quan once at a convention about film music and he says CP is his absolute favorite.  

 

And you didn't feel compelled to watch the film or listen to the score?

 

He'd live longer.

 

I have the Arrow release, and yes it has both the 127 and 174 min cuts. As with Tornatore's The Legend of 1900, I see no reason to watch the short version. That's why I've never seen Malena, actually - I want to see the full version, but it's hard to come by.

 

CP is a gem of a film, and the score is a perfect match.

[Andy 4,147]

Interesting that the 4K Arrow release was only the Theatrical Cut. There are a significant few at the Blu-ray.com forum who prefer it to the DC.   The 4K is now OOP in the US, with some speculating that a release of the DC is why. 

[filmmusic 1,843]

Well, the short version is the one that won the Oscar for best foreign film and all the prizes.

Anyway, here's Ebert's thoughts on the longer version:

https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/cinema-paradiso-the-new-version-2002

[Marian Schedenig 8,212]

1 hour ago, filmmusic said:

Well, the short version is the one that won the Oscar for best foreign film and all the prizes.

 

And the long version wasn't nominated, so who knows which one would have one had both been contenders…

[Jurassic Shark 12,097]

7 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

He'd live longer.

 

I have the Arrow release, and yes it has both the 124 and 174 min cuts. As with Tornatore's The Legend of 1900, I see no reason to watch the short version. That's why I've never seen Malena, actually - I want to see the full version, but it's hard to come by.

 

CP is a gem of a film, and the score is a perfect match.

 

Fixed.

[Trope 527]

9 hours ago, JWScores said:

 

features a particular compositional technique ("suspended strings") which is typical of Ennio. I believe he invented it, and you can hear it in several of his non-film pieces as well as in many of his other film scores: there is almost always at least one theme presented in this fashion. So, this arrangement was done either by Ennio, or by his son but with a clear intention to follow that style.

Ennio's "suspended strings" effect is one of my absolute favourite techniques of his. It appears in so many of his scores, and it's always a standout moment when he applies it.

[JWScores 28]

32 minutes ago, Trope said:

Ennio's "suspended strings" effect is one of my absolute favourite techniques of his. It appears in so many of his scores, and it's always a standout moment when he applies it.

 

One of my favourite examples, considering how it works in the film, is this (starting at 0:50):

 

 

 

The terminology "suspended strings" is how Morricone himself called the technique in a book written with Tornatore. There, they mention and discuss that the cue "The Crisis" from "The Legend of 1900" had initially been written in this way. However, Tornatore found it not fitting for the scene, so Morricone revised the strings parts to eliminate the suspensions, and so it became the film version we are familiar with. 

 

I believe that the choral part in the first and last sections of the main title of "Secret of the Sahara" is written in the same way (on a static chord that involves the notes C - D - F- G - A ), although it is difficult to say for sure without seeing the score: 

 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, filmmusic said:

Well, the short version is the one that won the Oscar for best foreign film and all the prizes.

Anyway, here's Ebert's thoughts on the longer version:

https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/cinema-paradiso-the-new-version-2002

 

In my opinion, the longest version is the way to go because it gives a completely different perspective on the main characters, especially concerning the actions of one of them; it even changes the meaning of the finale, where Totò watches the collage of cut sequences from the old movies made by Alfredo. And it's much more thought-provoking, it's almost another movie. I watched it not long ago with some other people who were all previously familiar (like me) with the short version, and we all agreed that the 174 min. one was much better. As Sergio Leone once said (about his own "Once Upon a Time in America"): "Sometimes, when you cut a film you actually make it longer". I think it applies to this case 

 

[Trope 527]

1 hour ago, JWScores said:

 

One of my favourite examples, considering how it works in the film, is this (starting at 0:50):

 

 

 

The terminology "suspended strings" is how Morricone himself called the technique in a book written with Tornatore. There, they mention and discuss that the cue "The Crisis" from "The Legend of 1900" had initially been written in this way. However, Tornatore found it not fitting for the scene, so Morricone revised the strings parts to eliminate the suspensions, and so it became the film version we are familiar with. 

 

I believe that the choral part in the first and last sections of the main title of "Secret of the Sahara" is written in the same way (on a static chord that involves the notes C - D - F- G - A ), although it is difficult to say for sure without seeing the score: 

 

 

I love that cue from The Mission! I'll share some of my favourites.

 

Sentimental Walk (and the many other tracks from Love Affair which use this technique). Absolutely gorgeous.

 

Humanity (Part 1). At about 5:10 in the cue, there's a beautifully icy passage (one of my favourites from the whole score). Love the underlying cluster as well.

 

Four Interludes (just to keep us on track, given the . The third interlude (0:53) is floaty and ephemeral. I like the harmonic ambiguity.

 

I'd be fascinated to know the exact method Morricone used to generate these textures. I'm sure he would have had some systematic/mathematical way of dividing the harmony up across the string section and deciding when they would each move to the next note.

[JWScores 28]

2 hours ago, Trope said:

I'd be fascinated to know the exact method Morricone used to generate these textures. I'm sure he would have had some systematic/mathematical way of dividing the harmony up across the string section and deciding when they would each move to the next note.

 

 

Yes, there is a systematic thought beyond that. I'll explain with an example.

 

Suppose you have a melodic theme in (say) 4/4, with a clear and regular harmonic and melodic rhythm. The procedure of "suspended strings" consists in letting the 4 upper parts of the strings (violins I, violins II, violas, and cellos) be made of sequences of held notes, each one having the duration of 5/8, and in letting the 4 sequences corresponding to the 4 parts start in different eighths of the first measure. For example: in bar 1, violins I start playing sequences of 5/8 notes starting on the first eighth of the measure; violins II start a different sequence of 5/8 notes on the fourth eighth; violas start another sequence on the third eighth, and cellos start another sequence on the second eighth. In this way, no two parts are ever going to attack any note simultaneously, therefore chords become kind of "blurry" and, indeed, harmonies are "suspended". This generates sequences of very short chords that are extremely strange but preserve a reminiscence of the original harmony, and a sense of motion due to the fact that, basically, at every eighth the harmony changes in one voice. 

 

If you can read music, you may want to see it written down, for example in this publicly visible perusal score: 

 

https://www.wisemusicclassical.com/work/63469/The-Legend-of-1900-Suite--Ennio-Morricone/

 

You will find two examples of this kind of writing, starting at page 5 and at page 22. The one starting at page 5 is probably the first version of "The Crisis", which I was mentioning in an earlier post. There are also plenty of examples of this technique in Morricone's commercially available concert pieces.

 

 

 

[Trope 527]

55 minutes ago, JWScores said:

 

 

Yes, there is a systematic thought beyond that. I'll explain with an example.

 

Suppose you have a melodic theme in (say) 4/4, with a clear and regular harmonic and melodic rhythm. The procedure of "suspended strings" consists in letting the 4 upper parts of the strings (violins I, violins II, violas, and cellos) be made of sequences of held notes, each one having the duration of 5/8, and in letting the 4 sequences corresponding to the 4 parts start in different eighths of the first measure. For example: in bar 1, violins I start playing sequences of 5/8 notes starting on the first eighth of the measure; violins II start a different sequence of 5/8 notes on the fourth eighth; violas start another sequence on the third eighth, and cellos start another sequence on the second eighth. In this way, no two parts are ever going to attack any note simultaneously, therefore chords become kind of "blurry" and, indeed, harmonies are "suspended". This generates sequences of very short chords that are extremely strange but preserve a reminiscence of the original harmony, and a sense of motion due to the fact that, basically, at every eighth the harmony changes in one voice. 

 

If you can read music, you may want to see it written down, for example in this publicly visible perusal score: 

 

https://www.wisemusicclassical.com/work/63469/The-Legend-of-1900-Suite--Ennio-Morricone/

 

You will find two examples of this kind of writing, starting at page 5 and at page 22. The one starting at page 5 is probably the first version of "The Crisis", which I was mentioning in an earlier post. There are also plenty of examples of this technique in Morricone's commercially available concert pieces.

 

 

 

You, sir, are a legend (of 1900!). Thank you so much. I do read music, so that score example was really helpful. I'm going to analyse the score further to see if there's a pattern or logic to the note progression/intervals within the individual parts.

 

This whole discussion reminds me that I actually tried to achieve this floating effect over a year ago in a piece I was trying to write for orchestra, inspired by Cinema Paradiso and other Morricone soundtracks I was listening to at the time. I didn't have any Morricone scores (i.e. sheet music) to analyse, so I tried to replicate the effect/something similar by ear. Here's a little excerpt, where I tried to get a similar floating effect in the high winds. Obviously nowhere near as effective as the strings.

 

[filmmusic 1,843]

5 hours ago, JWScores said:

In my opinion, the longest version is the way to go because it gives a completely different perspective on the main characters, especially concerning the actions of one of them; it even changes the meaning of the finale, where Totò watches the collage of cut sequences from the old movies made by Alfredo. And it's much more thought-provoking, it's almost another movie. I watched it not long ago with some other people who were all previously familiar (like me) with the short version, and we all agreed that the 174 min. one was much better. As Sergio Leone once said (about his own "Once Upon a Time in America"): "Sometimes, when you cut a film you actually make it longer". I think it applies to this case

OK, you convinced me.

I'll watch it and see how it goes..

I'm not terribly familiar with the theatrical cut either, so I won't know what scenes where added, except for the last past I guess...

[JWScores 28]

8 hours ago, Trope said:

You, sir, are a legend (of 1900!). Thank you so much. I do read music, so that score example was really helpful. I'm going to analyse the score further to see if there's a pattern or logic to the note progression/intervals within the individual parts.

 

Happy to help! I didn't study the logic in the individual parts for that specific piece, although I believe it's essentially this: 

 

1) the 4 parts combine in such a way that the chords of a standard harmonization are often alluded to, if never (or almost never) exactly realized;

2) the harmonic appoggiaturas should not resolve; e.g., if the parts outline a dominant chord, the VII grade will not move to the tonic in the next chord; it will rather jump to another grade of the scale (I know this is one of Morricone's principles when writing in this style, as he mentioned it in a lecture);

3) in an individual part, for the reasons above, jumps are favoured, as opposed to motion to adjacent grades.

 

 

8 hours ago, Trope said:

This whole discussion reminds me that I actually tried to achieve this floating effect over a year ago in a piece I was trying to write for orchestra, inspired by Cinema Paradiso and other Morricone soundtracks I was listening to at the time. I didn't have any Morricone scores (i.e. sheet music) to analyse, so I tried to replicate the effect/something similar by ear. Here's a little excerpt, where I tried to get a similar floating effect in the high winds. Obviously nowhere near as effective as the strings.

 

I cannot play the sample, but I did read the score excerpt and, indeed, it has a similar floating quality (and the C7+/9 chord in the strings is very "morriconian" as well). Nice work! The stylistic differences are due to the features outlined above. 

 

 

 

 

[Marian Schedenig 8,212]

On 08/04/2024 at 11:19 PM, Marian Schedenig said:

I have the Arrow release, and yes it has both the 127 and 174 min cuts.

 

Two comments:

1. I was talking about Arrow's "2-disc special edition", which no longer seems to be available. But according to their website, the regular release also includes both cuts. I wonder if the bitrate is reduced, because the 2-disc version has a separate disc for each version of the film, and the regular has both on one disc. Or perhaps the regular is dual-layered and the 2-disc wasn't.
2. Arrow is having a sale right now, and Cinema Paradiso is only £10.00.

[filmmusic 1,843]

35 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

Two comments:

1. I was talking about Arrow's "2-disc special edition", which no longer seems to be available. But according to their website, the regular release also includes both cuts. I wonder if the bitrate is reduced, because the 2-disc version has a separate disc for each version of the film, and the regular has both on one disc. Or perhaps the regular is dual-layered and the 2-disc wasn't.
2. Arrow is having a sale right now, and Cinema Paradiso is only £10.00.

This release that you linked with this cover seems to be from the new restoration!

I have the old restoration with this cover: https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Cinema-Paradiso-Blu-ray/170340/

and honestly I think I like the color grading more in that one.

If you check every comparison here, the old one is more saturated and colder, than the warmer new restoration:

https://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?d1=15062&d2=15060&s1=157230&s2=157199&i=0&l=0&a=0

[Marian Schedenig 8,212]

I wasn't even aware they were two different masters! I also have the older one.

[Jurassic Shark 12,097]

On 12/04/2024 at 7:13 PM, Marian Schedenig said:

 

Two comments:

1. I was talking about Arrow's "2-disc special edition", which no longer seems to be available. But according to their website, the regular release also includes both cuts. I wonder if the bitrate is reduced, because the 2-disc version has a separate disc for each version of the film, and the regular has both on one disc. Or perhaps the regular is dual-layered and the 2-disc wasn't.
2. Arrow is having a sale right now, and Cinema Paradiso is only £10.00.

 

The release you linked to has two discs. 

[Marian Schedenig 8,212]

I'm confused now.

[Jurassic Shark 12,097]

That's JWFan.