The Doctor Who Thread.....

[Sweeping Strings 2,365]

Enjoyed it greatly ... Davros might be a wily deceitful old bastard, but the Doctor is moreso. Skaro seemingly reduced to rubble again ... I wonder how long before it reappears?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Well I'm guessing only the city is destroyed. And both Missy and Davros seem to still be around.

I personally wish that The Doctor would have actually been deceived by Davros rather then knowing what he was up too all along.

The ways it plays out now rather cheapens the earlier scenes of bonding between The Doctor and Davros.

Moffat and co did the same thing with Sherlock's The Empty Hearse, where it turns out that Sherlock allowed Moriarty to destroy his reputation, and that everything that happened was meticulously planned.

It's very clever of course, as most of Moffat's writing is, but it feels dramatically false.

[Arpy 4,145]

"Let me look upon you with my own eyes."

I wouldn't have minded one bit if they went the sentimental route and Davros hadn't deceived The Doctor in some plot with Sarf.

BUT...

...Sonic. Fucking. Sunglasses.

What the hell?

Hopefully this is some stunt like the Sonic Cane from Let's Kill Hitler. Please?

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

Actually the genocide proposition was probably a callback to the Tom Baker era Genesis Of The Daleks rather then anything Eccleston.

The music was rather good. Some nice vocalizations.

No obvious hint of a season arc right now. I'm guessing Missy will be back, possibly teamed up with Davros?

Oh, it might well be a nod to Baker's Doctor, and I wasn't implying that it actively references Eccleston. But I've only seen two or three Baker episodes, and the most Dalek genocidal Doctor I've seen is Eccleston's. Was Baker as dark as him?

Yes, the music seems to take a more active role again this season, which is good. There really doesn't seem to be that much notable music from S8.

And I'm not hasty in trying to figure out the arc. I expect it will become clear in due time - and often enough, it's only vaguely hinted at in the earlier episodes anyway. At least we've already had a two parter again. S8 had neither that nor a strong arc.

I personally wish that The Doctor would have actually been deceived by Davros rather then knowing what he was up too all along.

The ways it plays out now rather cheapens the earlier scenes of bonding between The Doctor and Davros.

I don't know. I liked the sentimentality of it, but at the same time it seemed awfully short sighted of the Doctor. It's more convincing the way it turned out.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No Baker wasnt as dark as Eccleston. But Genesis Of The Daleks is a rather famous serial from his era. The first to feature Davros, and it has a scene where The Doctor gets the chance to essentially prevent the creation of the Daleks, but ponders if he has the right to do so.

The set-up of the scene in last nights ep, and the fact that it was being staged as Davros final one gave it a strong connection to Genesis Of The Daleks.

Btw, the two episode titles so far The Magician's Apprentice and The Witch's Familar. They don't seem to have any clear relevance to the episodes. The only thing is that they could both be said to indicate Clara.

Yes, the music seems to take a more active role again this season, which is good. There really doesn't seem to be that much notable music from S8.

There were a few kinda muted statements of the new Doctors theme introduced last year that didnt really convince. It doesnt strike me as a very versatile theme. Unlike say The Doctor Forever

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

It's telling that the most thrilling rendition of it on the album actually couples it with Smith's material.

Btw, the two episode titles so far The Magician's Apprentice and The Witch's Familar. They don't seem to have any clear relevance to the episodes. The only thing is that they could both be said to indicate Clara.

Well yes, I think they clearly related to Clara. They're very Moffat titles - two takes on the same idea. Coupling is full of those, and The Girl Who Died/The Woman Who Lived later this season is another example.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

As for the season arc, I wonder if it relates to the Doctor's confession disc, which he quickly put back in his pocket.

[Sweeping Strings 2,365]

Steef, your earlier post about the Doctor being surprised that mercy is in a Dalek's vocabulary despite the fact that one begged River for it ... the Doctor's not actually in the vicinity when River and the Dalek are having that exchange, if memory serves. So maybe that explains it.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I realize that. I also realize that this was a partially stone Dalek, from a universe that doesn't exist any more.

It still feels like something of a slip-up though. The scene would be stronger if no Dalek had ever said the word "mercy".

I can only imagine the gnashing of teeth on the Doctor Who forums about this!

[Richard Penna 3,696]

More gnashing than over a Tardis that can magically disintegrate when under attack in one specific episode?

The article on the Clara storyline was certainly right - the writers can make up just about anything, but as it's the Who universe, somehow it doesn't have to make sense.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The show in its history has many examples of one-off solutions that are then magically forgotten when the episode finishes.

They do seem to abuse this privilege though.

[KK 3,307]

First episode was kind of messy, but second episode was much more fulfilling. The conversation between Davros and the Doctor was wonderfully portrayed, but as Steef said, I too wish the Doctor was actually deceived. It kind of discredits what was almost a beautiful moment when both sides were playing it.

[Sweeping Strings 2,365]

More gnashing than over a Tardis that can magically disintegrate when under attack in one specific episode?

The article on the Clara storyline was certainly right - the writers can make up just about anything, but as it's the Who universe, somehow it doesn't have to make sense.

The system by which the Tardis did that ('HADS') DOES have a history in the show, albeit a small one ... it was used by the Second Doctor, and I think the only other time was by the Eleventh in 'Cold War'.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Under The Lake / Before The Flood

The first episode is a solid, but very typical isolated space station/moonbase/underwater base under attack by weird alien or supernatural creatures story. The second episode kinda puts it all on it's head and turns it into a very clever time paradox story (a staple of the Moffat era)

The fact that this is a two-parter helps the story breathe. There have been instances where a similar ambitious set-up was told in 45 minutes.

Capaldi and Coleman are in good form and the guest characters are better then average. I have no idea who the Fisher King was or what he wanted though.

Apparently this season will be all two-parters, which is actually a very interesting idea.

Capaldi breaking the fourth wall about Beethoven and giving a little sample of his guitar was just cool! I wonder if this time paradox is in any way part of the season arc (assuming it has one. Curious about the War Ministry)

Music was largely forgettable with the exception of tonights title theme with electric guitar overdubbs. Great fun!

[Richard Penna 3,696]

I just finished, and my head is spinning. That is all.

[Sweeping Strings 2,365]

Enjoyed it ... must admit I wasn't crazy about the fourth wall-breaking at the start, though. Not sure how much I like the show acknowledging the fact that it knows it's a show, if you get me.

That said, it has at least being doing it from the start ... the First Doctor once extended a Christmas greeting to 'all of you at home'.

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

The first episode is a solid, but very typical isolated space station/moonbase/underwater base under attack by weird alien or supernatural creatures story. The second episode kinda puts it all on it's head and turns it into a very clever time paradox story (a staple of the Moffat era)

I had a similar experience with the opening two parter. The first episode was promising, but it was the second part that really made it work by putting it into context.

Capaldi breaking the fourth wall about Beethoven and giving a little sample of his guitar was just cool!

Some cool cinematography there. Also Capaldi is in top form. I liked him a lot in the previous season, but there was often something off about the series in general (e.g. the Doctor/Clara relationship). A bit uneven. But then, I wasn't a fan of Smith's at all in his first season (Gillan and the scripts made it all work) until he came into his own in his second season. I appreciated Capaldi much more right from the start, but now it finally all seems to click as a whole.

Music was largely forgettable with the exception of tonights title theme with electric guitar overdubbs. Great fun!

There were a few moments. A lovely rendition of the Clara theme, for example.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

But then, I wasn't a fan of Smith's at all in his first season (Gillan and the scripts made it all work)

You must be joking?

Smith's first season was his best one by far!

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

I think I might have liked his second season even more, but his first was great. It's just Smith himself that I wasn't really happy with at first, as a successor to Tennant, not until his second season. In contrast, I found Capaldi great right away, but I felt the show as a whole hadn't fully adapted to him yet, until now.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Series 5 didn't just have a new Doctor but a whole new production crew etc. so it makes sense that parts are a big rough around the edges. But Smith sold me from The Eleventh Hour.

I still maintain that series 5 is the most successful overall.

[KK 3,307]

I agree. It's Moffat's best season I believe.

But it's hard coming off of Tennant's tearful farewell, whomever his successor would have been.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Just listened to Vale Decem and couldn't help tearing up!

The last 10 or 15 minutes of that episode, from the moment Wilf knocks four times is essentially one giant cry fest!

[Arpy 4,145]

I agree with Stefan, series 5 was the best of Smith's seasons. Everything felt new but at the same time well-steered by Moffat as if he knew what he was doing for once. Season 7 picked up quite well, but effectively destroyed the Silence's dramatic 'presence' throughout seasons 5 and 6.

On the topic of End of Time, Murray really turned up the writing for those two scores. You have the thrilling nature of the Doctor's theme throughout and the return of The Master's theme which I was always fond of since series 3.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The Girl Who Died

Like the previous two part 1's this is a very bog standard, and somewhat underwhelming episode, which ends with an interesting twist. So I'm guessing ep 2 will elevate the material of this one enormously.

So it's hard to judge this episode accurately, but throughout I wasnt very interested in most of what was going on. The vikings weren't very interesting characters, even Maisie Williams felt underused. The villains were the usual bunch of indestructible aliens who are beaten with great ease.

This episode finally makes the fact that the 10th Doctor previously saved someone who looks just like the current one a canonical fact. It's a nice touch, which doesnt have any actual relevance to the story here (its used to beef up The Doctor's decision to save Ashildr).

The end is however good, and the promise for the next episode is strong.

The music was also very nice, though the special effects in this one were the weakest this season.

Part two might be stellar, but that won't change the fact that this one is a bit too underwhelming.

[Sweeping Strings 2,365]

Hmm ... I thought it was full of amusing lines (the weight that's been lifted from Twelve's shoulders since 'Am I a good man?' was resolved makes him a joy to watch), and I found the Doctor's translating of the baby's cries followed by Clara's gentle touch of his face and 'You just decided to stay' rather moving.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Those were good moments.

The Woman Who Lived

A very good part two, without really becoming a classic. The many scenes between The Doctor and Ashildr were the obvious highlight. With some nice observations about life and death. Though some of them have been heard before on Doctor Who, especially the fact that The Doctor never stays around to deal with the consequences of his actions.

The actual plot was really waver thin though. Again an alien with impressive make-up, but little or no character of interest. Potential end of the world...but saved with a fairly simply, and convenient fix.

Maissie Williams was excellent and I hope she comes back soon.

[Richard Penna 3,696]

The alien character was pointless in my view - just served as a very weird way to present a potential way out for Ashildr.

Definitely, there was virtually nothing to the plot - it was all secondary to the character examination of someone with immortality forced upon them. The photo zoom-in right at the end gave me chills.

It was also a rather interesting concept that the Doctor won't take her along because he feels he needs to be with someone who appreciates the value of life and is thankful for it. It seems like a perfect line to say after he yet again puts Clara in peril in the previous episode.

And I'm definitely liking this 2-parter structure - the fewer 'situations' they have to come up with, the better. Actually the only part I've not liked so far is Missy. Nothing against the actress - purely the writing - I barely understood what the heck was going on with her in Death in Heaven and The Magician's Apprentice.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Since this is essentially a "companion-lite" episode, I wonder if that means we will have a "Doctor-lite" episode as well.

Not having Clara actually helped in this story.

[KK 3,307]

Meh.

Disappointed by the last two episodes. But they did have some good spots, and they promise potential from Williams' character.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Indeed!

[KK 3,307]

I'm guessing this will be Clara's last season. I wonder if she'll die...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Would be the first regular companion to do so since 2005

[stewdog1 50]

I thought Amy Pond died.

Sent from my LGLS991 using Tapatalk

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

She did, but only after living a full live in the past, which the Doctor could never visit...even though he had a time machine...

[stewdog1 50]

Oh ok. For some reason I thought when she left it was to die with her husband.

Sent from my LGLS991 using Tapatalk

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

She didnt leave, she was taken....

[stewdog1 50]

Ok, it's been a while since I've seen it.

Sent from my LGLS991 using Tapatalk

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

That much is certain....

[Jay 37,378]

Hey stewdog can you remove the signoff line you have tapatalk adding to every post? Thanks!

[stewdog1 50]

Ok it should be gone now. I hate how it does that by default.

[Jay 37,378]

Yea, it's an annoying feature.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Better, now go back and edit all your previous posts that have that sig!

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

Those were good moments.

The Woman Who Lived

A very good part two, without really becoming a classic. The many scenes between The Doctor and Ashildr were the obvious highlight. With some nice observations about life and death. Though some of them have been heard before on Doctor Who, especially the fact that The Doctor never stays around to deal with the consequences of his actions.

I liked the first episode well enough, and the two parter as a whole. It nicely touches some of the deeper issues that have fuelled the strongest episode in the past (though they've been done better before). I did find the editing in the second part really annoying though, it actually dragged the whole thing down for me a bit. Still, I'm liking this season a lot - it has a sense of coherence and purpose that was lacking last year. And Capaldi is in top form.

Maissie Williams was excellent and I hope she comes back soon.

It certainly looks like it. I'm trying not to think too much about it (for risk of overthinking and then being disappointed), but there seems to be a strong season arc developing, what with ripples and tidal waves and an undying counterpart to the Doctor.

[stewdog1 50]

Better, now go back and edit all your previous posts that have that sig!

Never!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The Zygon Invasion/The Zygon Inversion

A somewhat rare attempt in the Moffat era to do a full invasion of Earth type story.

They never have quite the scale or importance of the invasion stories from the RTD era, which had (by the looks of it) hundreds of extra's and put as much effects on the screen as the budget allowed. So as clever as this one is, it never reaches the heights of The Christmas Invasion, The Sound Of The Drums, The End Of Time etc. etc..

It makes up for it be being very clever and funny. Though as usual the plot basically consists of throwing one sudden plot twist after another (this is what passes for great writing these days).

The first episode suffers a bit because it's painfully obvious that a Zygon took over Clara's place. But the stuff about the two Osgood's is great.

Episode two once again provides some more depth by giving Capaldi a moment to shine. Though essentially the final resolution is no different then what happened in that Basement in day Of The Doctor.

This season has been incredibly arc light. There are a few things that might point to a continuation later in the season, but so far every story seems remarkably self contained. Which is surprising and rather wonderful. Recalls the RTD era where the arc was mostly a very subtle and intrusive thing that only became clear in the season finale.

Moffat really brought the season arcs up front and centre, often to the detriment of the overall result.

Solid two parter, no classic though.

[Sweeping Strings 2,365]

Capaldi was utterly superb as he pleaded with Clara's Zygon double not to plunge them into all-out war with the human race.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yes.

But did you ever feel that the world, or the Zygon race was really at stake?

[Richard Penna 3,696]

I was enjoying this week's until the 'empty' twist. It felt a bit like it cheapened Capaldi's superb monologue.

Saw the ''why it's called the Osgood box' thing coming miles off (come on, did anyone not?). It's a story that almost feels like it could've been the series finale, but I'm glad it wasn't.

On the good side though, Capaldi and Coleman were fantastic, and the writing was wonderfully witty.

[KK 3,307]

One of Capaldi's best moments yet, though the episodes were okay, though in some ways rather disappointing.

The seasonal arc seems to keep foreshadowing a darker fate for Clara and her relationship with the Doctor. Colour me intrigued.

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

But did you ever feel that the world, or the Zygon race was really at stake?

No. Which is why I'm not really a fan of the UNIT and Earth invasion episodes in general. They're good when they're strongly character driven, which this one wasn't. It was also more implausible than most, it seemed, which didn't make things easier. So yes, solid, but probably the weakest episode so far this series (the first part was a bit stronger than the second, as far as I remember).

Killer finale for Capaldi though.

I was enjoying this week's until the 'empty' twist. It felt a bit like it cheapened Capaldi's superb monologue.

I don't think it did. The whole thing seemed to straightforward, too hinged on having the Doctor save the day unprepared. The empty box didn't take away from his achievement (especially considering that Bonnie didn't call it until he was done), but it gave more credence to the entire setup.

And I loved the Doctor's question: "What's wrong with pointless?" - I'll try to use that in the future.