Thematic intregrity of ROTS score as heard in film

[APBez 11]

Seen ROTS twice now. A few words on the use of musical themes in the film.

As I remember the score as it is employed in the film...

... 'The Droid Invasion' track from TPM was used appropriately as the army attack the Wookies.

... 'The Clone Army' music from AOTC used as Anakin leads said army into the Jedi Temple. Makes sense.

... 'Across The Stars' is used appropriately, I think.

... 'The Imperial March/Darth Vader's Theme' used to score the early part of The Emperor's confrontation with Yoda. Not sure this is appropriate.

. 'The Emperor's Theme' isn't used a lot (surprising) and plays over a discussion between Yoda, Obi-Wan and Mace Windu. Why? Very liberal use.

I've read a lot of quotes from Lucas and Williams made as they worked on the score and they talk about themes' employment passionately and stress the appropriateness/accuracy of their use. Not sure the end product supports the philsophies they express though.

What do we think of leitmotif? How strictly should it be adhered to? Bothered?

APBez

... who thinks the score is stil great and JW is too.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I really think the ESB music is very out of place. The music that accompanies Luke getting sucked out the window so perfectly fits with the rushing wind and the dizzying height. In RotS, it plays when Palpy kicks Yoda's ass for the first time. No heights or winds. Very inappropriate, I felt. It wasn't thematic material to begin with, either.

[fommes 154]

Frankly, everything is open to interpretation, and I've (almost) stopped caring for thematic consistence or explanations. Even Leia's Theme in Ben's Death can be interpreted as 'Obi-Wan not only saves Luke, but also Leia, and he's besides Yoda the only one who knows that she's his sister', tracing the moment back to the splitting up of the babies. But all right, the Trade Federation theme in AOTC for the Clone Army was somewhat out of place. Unless you know everything is a set up from the start and leads back to one person.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Well, what I meant is that I just don't understand why there was no new music written. The two scenes don't rightly mirror each other, and there's no thematic link two connect the two.

[Jeshopk 8]

'The Clone Army' music from AOTC used as Anakin leads said army into the Jedi Temple. Makes sense.

Actually, that's not Clone Army music at all. It was cut from AOTC, wasn't in that film, and was written for the beasts coming out at the beginning of the Arena sequence.

Obviously Williams must have written music for the new scene. I wasn't at all moved during the Jedi Temple scene. The tracking was horrendous throughout the movie. I thought it was over after the crash landing, but there was more, and more and more.

I'd say about 50-60 percent of the music is properly placed. There's also alot of in-film retracking, like the beginning of the grievous fight with ObiWan, in which we hear the two previously heard statements of Grievous' theme retracked and spliced together. Most of the middle of the movie had bad pacing, editing and retracking. By the end of the movie, I was very moved and overall it was great. But the tracking problems are about as bad as AOTC, and its a shame.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

At least RotS has a musical third act, so the score can build toward something. AotC severely lacked this, IMO, mainly due to the big battle having only tracked music.

[Jacck 23]

'The Clone Army' music from AOTC used as Anakin leads said army into the Jedi Temple. Makes sense.

Actually, that's not Clone Army music at all. It was cut from AOTC, wasn't in that film, and was written for the beasts coming out at the beginning of the Arena sequence.

Obviously Williams must have written music for the new scene. I wasn't at all moved during the Jedi Temple scene. The tracking was horrendous throughout the movie. I thought it was over after the crash landing, but there was more, and more and more.

I'd say about 50-60 percent of the music is properly placed. There's also alot of in-film retracking, like the beginning of the grievous fight with ObiWan, in which we hear the two previously heard statements of Grievous' theme retracked and spliced together. Most of the middle of the movie had bad pacing, editing and retracking. By the end of the movie, I was very moved and overall it was great. But the tracking problems are about as bad as AOTC, and its a shame.

Damn

I was really hoping there would be little or no butchering this time round...

[Jeshopk 8]

I've read a lot of quotes from Lucas and Williams made as they worked on the score and they talk about themes' employment passionately and stress the appropriateness/accuracy of their use. Not sure the end product supports the philsophies they express though.

Actions speak louder than words. Williams' intention is certainly not to retrack everything. I think Lucas is just stroking his ego at those times, thinking "I just want alot of classical music I can put in my film." Remember, Williams convinced Lucas that he should write original themes rather than re-arranging classical standards. So its been a tug of war the whole time.

Someone really must like retracking music, and it sure ain't Williams. He writes music for moments.

[Jacck 23]

I've read a lot of quotes from Lucas and Williams made as they worked on the score and they talk about themes' employment passionately and stress the appropriateness/accuracy of their use. Not sure the end product supports the philsophies they express though.

Actions speak louder than words. Williams' intention is certainly not to retrack everything. I think Lucas is just stroking his ego at those times, thinking "I just want alot of classical music I can put in my film." Remember, Williams convinced Lucas that he should write original themes rather than re-arranging classical standards. So its been a tug of war the whole time.

Someone really must like retracking music, and it sure ain't Williams. He writes music for moments.

Amen Sister!! o_O

*toddles off*

[Jeshopk 8]

At least RotS has a musical third act, so the score can build toward something. AotC severely lacked this, IMO, mainly due to the big battle having only tracked music.

That helps the movie. The Mustaphar/BOTH/Finale music is pretty much coherent and properly placed. I agree with what Mr. Brathmask said about the ESB reprise, though. Not sure what that was all about.

[Morlock 11]

I think it all fit thematicaly. Dramaticaly, however, IMO two things didn't fit. First, the duel of the fates in the Palpatine/ Yoda fight. Thematically, it fits perfectly. But in the film, it's impact was lost on me. And when Vader rises at the end, having it in the middle of statement of the funeral theme. While it of course fits, Vader's rise needed something else. The Imperial March might have been out of place, but it at the very least needed to have it's own cue, not to come in the middle of a statement of a theme.

[Lurker 5]

The Qui Gon funeral music for the birth of Vader was all wrong, but what do you expect from a series of movies that plays giant fish music during light saber fights? And again, Trade Federation music for "Vader" leading the clones into the Jedi temple? Of course this was tracked.

Neil

[King Mark 3,631]

from ?  And again, Trade Federation music for "Vader" leading the clones into the Jedi temple?  Of course this was tracked.

Neil

Well,it was mixed in so ridiculously low in AotC maybe we'll at least hear it this time since it's a great passage,as far as short passages go.

K.M.

[Lurker 5]

Correction, it's the arena music used in the march towards the Jedi temple. So this really key scene is tracked! Yuck!

Neil

[King Mark 3,631]

Hmm,wasn't that music unused in AotC?

K.M.Who hasn't seen AotC since 2002

[Adam 1]

Yeah. The positive aspect is that at least there wasn't as much of the quick edits to different tracked material. But its only because things got so bad with the first two films that one can sound positive about it this time around - our expectations have been lowered so far in that dept. Its still really bad from the point of view of how his score ought to sound.

Some random thoughts on some of the themes...

Besides the main titiles and the start of the end credits, I see the force theme as the main link for all 6 movies. With the first 2 prequels, JW only used it in the obvious situations where the force is evoked. In RotS, he uses it much more liberally. Its on the album more but there also several very good versions not on the album. More than any theme, I think it represents the heart of the story so it was good to see it take a more prominent role. But it has to be one of the most quoted themes in film history, outside the Bond theme I suppose. Maybe that’s why he gives it a different chord progression in this film, to try to keep it somewhat fresh.

I thought Leia’s Theme feels like it was written as much for RotS as it was Star Wars. The dramatic rendition in the end credits, though written almost 3 decades ago, gives the right kind of feeling that I think the film needed with the ending. It feels right emotionally and also as a way of triggering a connection in people to the first triology, almost as though he’d planned that theme to do that all along.

BotH theme was a highlight. On one hand it has no connection to the other films or even the first 2/3 of the movie. But that maybe helped to distiguish the final duel even more as a stand-alone dramatic pay-off - kind of like the dramatic centerpiece of the movie as promised in all of the hype.

- Adam

[nightscape94 965]

I thought the funeral music (which should be thought of as just that, funeral music, not specifically Qui Gon's funeral music) was great at the birth of Vadar. This is the final loss of anything that might have resembled Anakin. It was a death, and his rise is a sad beginning to a new chapter in the saga.

Tim, who really liked the more subdued version of the funeral music during Padme's procession, and is mad that it wasn't included on the OST release.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I thought the funeral music was appropriate, but I too wish we'd gotten the version for Padmés funeral on the CD as well.

I also really liked that rendition of the Force theme when Obi-Wan sets off for Utapau in his fighter.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

I loved how the Force theme is used in this movie as Obi-Wan Kenobi's theme, much like it was in A New Hope, making the connection between both trilogies stronger. I don't know if this was intentional, but I hardly think so. It's just a great coincidence, since Williams needed a theme for Obi-Wan and obviously wasn't going to write a new one. Besides, Obi-Wan's actions are so in connection with the Force, it only seemed obvious. Very good choice that made for a fascinating thematic link, in a roundabout way.

[Luke Skywalker 1,807]

That's why Throne Room (really, the Force Theme) made some sense in the end credits...

[fommes 154]

I don't see it as the 'Throne Room', but as the concert version of the Force Theme, indeed.

[Luke Skywalker 1,807]

Thats what i think.

Isnt it on the liner notes? That it was made to remember the greatness of the republic?

And really, throne room? Was there a throne? Was there a royal person? (Leia is not from Yavin IV...)

Still it could be still a Massassi throne room...

[homiealex 1]

Hello all,

The music in "Revenge of the Sith" that everyone keeps calling "Clone Army" music isn't!!! It's music from "The Arena" in "Attack of the Clones", the first 2/3 of the piece that was actually cut from its origianl film. If watching only the films, we actually haven't heard it yet (similar to the Podrace music cut from "The Phantom Menace" and used the Battle of Geonosis in "Attack of the Clones"). It fit ok but I'm sure Williams composed something more interesting.

I didn't like the part from "The Empire Strikes Back" being used during the Yoda/Sidious fight, whether it was Williams' decision or Lucas'. I know it was a new recording and not tracked, but I don't consider it an original cue (although it is a faster tempo, and the 3 punctuated trumpet/brass notes embellishing the 2nd half of Darth Vader's theme are faster-maybe 16ths instead of triplets-, and the new last 4 notes).

I heard some other quiet parts from "The Phantom Menace" tracked throughout the score, and at least one unreleased cue from "Attack of the Clones".

More obviously, I heard "Escape from Naboo" and "Anakin Destroys the Federation Battleship" from "The Phantom Menace" tracked into the opening battle (which was brilliant in my opinion! And I mean the battle itself, not the msuic edits). I like the film version of the music that segues from the Main Title into the actual battle A LOT more than the soundtrack version (the end of the Main Title being cut short).

God bless,

Alex

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Thats what i think.

Isnt it on the liner notes? That it was made to remember the greatness of the republic?

And really, throne room? Was there a throne? Was there a royal person? (Leia is not from Yavin IV...)

Still it could be still a Massassi throne room...

The cue has been called The Throne Room since 1977, most likely named by John Williams himself.

That's enough for me.

[SeekUYoda 0]

I thought the funeral music (which should be thought of as just that, funeral music, not specifically Qui Gon's funeral music) was great at the birth of Vadar.  This is the final loss of anything that might have resembled Anakin.  It was a death, and his rise is a sad beginning to a new chapter in the saga.

Tim, who really liked the more subdued version of the funeral music during Padme's procession, and is mad that it wasn't included on the OST release.

Yeah.... what he said. Ever since Episode 1 I wanted to hear more of that theme!

[diskobolus 3]

Thats what i think.

Isnt it on the liner notes? That it was made to remember the greatness of the republic?

And really, throne room? Was there a throne? Was there a royal person? (Leia is not from Yavin IV...)

Still it could be still a Massassi throne room...

The cue has been called The Throne Room since 1977, most likely named by John Williams himself.

That's enough for me.

The location is called exactly Massassi Throne Room.

http://www.decipher.com/starwars/cardlists...throneroom.html

[Todd 30]

More tracked music:

In the "We do not grant you the rank of master" scene in the Jedi council room...you can hear tracked music from THE SENATE from TPM.

[batmanand 0]

I think the AOTC "The Arena" music for a large part of the "Anakin takes on the Jedi temple" section was good for two reasons. Firstly, it worked as musical underscore to the scene. Secondly, much of it was not used in AOTC (the film), so this was its first film use, hence it was good.

Shame "Escape from Naboo" returned again. Don't get me wrong - fantastic cue - but to use it three times more in the prequels (the pod race in TPM, Yoda to rescue in AOTC and now R2D2 slides in ROTS) than it was meant to be used is a little excessive!

[Todd 30]

I hate that cue...."Escape from the Arena"

[batmanand 0]

Which one is that? Is it the second last track on the OST or some other cue?

[TheRuleOfThirds 0]

Nobody's noticed that Williams wrote "Tie Fighter Attack" into the opening battle. When I heard it, I was grinning from ear to ear.

A lot of the themes didn't really fit in too well as recurring melodies matching with characters or suggestions of characters, but musically, as underscore, they do.

I like the melody of "Escape from Naboo", but I wish instead of using the same version of it in all three films, I wish different variations could be used. For instance, the "Droid Invasion" theme from TPM being used for the Clones. Now that I've brought that up, I'm going to venture out on a limb and suggest that maybe there's nothing set in stone saying that that particular theme is the "droid" or "clone" theme. Maybe it's just a military theme--which it sounds like it could be. If it was used during a love scene, we couldn't really say that. But it's not. So there's my theory. TI/LI.

One theme I'm really disappointed in not being used nearly as much in the prequels is the main theme. It was used twice in TPM, only one written for AotC, and twice in RotS. In the OT, it's heard constantly--the best being "Return of the Jedi/Sail Barge Assault."

I call RotS the thematic equivalent to TESB, as far as the inconsistency goes. I watched Empire today and noticed that Princess Leia's theme is used during the Battle of Hoth. Not to mention all the uses of Yoda's theme on Bespin.

[Henry B 50]

It was used twice in TPM

Four times in TPM... don't forget "Duel in the Desert," and a bit in "Anakin Is Free" sounds a lot like the B section of Luke's Theme.

I call RotS the thematic equivalent to TESB, as far as the inconsistency goes. I watched Empire today and noticed that Princess Leia's theme is used during the Battle of Hoth. Not to mention all the uses of Yoda's theme on Bespin.

When is that? Mike Mattesino mentions Leia's Theme in "Imperial Walkers," but he probably confused it with a high string rendition of the Walker theme.

[TheRuleOfThirds 0]

It's like right before the part where Veers says, "You may start your landing," and before Wedge harpoons the walker.

[Adam 1]

Princess Leia's theme is used consistently in TESB. For example, Han says he'll get her out on the falcon during battle of hoth and I think it shows up there. So its usually reacting to her being mentioned or something she does. Star Wars its used inconsistently, of course, after Ben dies.

- Adam

[Luke Skywalker 1,807]

About the drums after the opening crawl, are they BUM----BUM----BUM----BUM... or BUM--BUM----BUM--BUM----...

If the latter, it may appear on the CD in 1st track 3:17 to 3:33?

I hope it is, since it would mean Williams still could have composed it. THe recorded the drums appart from the main orchestra, and then since the opening thins could not appeal to the main public they used them isolated...

If not it just could be Ben Burrt's 'compositions' like the Geonosis arena source music...

[Elmo Lewis 6]

One theme I'm really disappointed in not being used nearly as much in the prequels is the main theme.  It was used twice in TPM, only one written for AotC, and twice in RotS.  In the OT, it's heard constantly--the best being "Return of the Jedi/Sail Barge Assault."  

Well, consdering it's a theme written for the character of Luke Skywalker, who is missing from the prequels, I don't see how this is inapropiate at all. It was okay to play it in TPM, it gave us all a "Star Wars is back" feeling when the action started. In AOTC, it was tracked, so there's no reason for it being there at all. And I missed the subdued version watching ROTS - where does it play?

[nightscape94 965]

It plays at the last scene. The transition from Alderaan (spelling?) to Tatooine when Obi-Wan delivers baby Luke to Uncle Owen.

Tim

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Is that the one where it's played by strings in track 13 on the CD? Because I meant the other one, where it's played very softly by brass, somewhere in the CD I can't remember now. I'm not hearing things, am I?

[MontyBurns 0]

I really think the ESB music is very out of place. The music that accompanies Luke getting sucked out the window so perfectly fits with the rushing wind and the dizzying height. In RotS, it plays when Palpy kicks Yoda's ass for the first time. No heights or winds. Very inappropriate, I felt. It wasn't thematic material to begin with, either.

This to me, in the final edit, is clearly not where it was intended to be.

From the screenplay:

“ANAKIN lashes out at OBI-WAN, and they begin a ferocious sword fight. ANAKIN throws CONTAINERS at OBI-WAN using the Force.

They work their way off the landing platform and into the main entry hallway. ANAKIN kicks OBI-WAN, and OBI-WAN drops to a lower level.”

As scored it was an intended blatant call back to Empire because a scene showed that Anakin does exactly to Obi Wan as he later does to Luke. Now, where it is in the final cut, it kind of works, but the reprise of ‘The Duel’ cue from Empire loses its actual purpose.

[King Mark 3,631]

If that Anakin throwing those containers was cut,then your obviously right.

K.M.

[Adam 1]

Whover mixed the music understood that the TESB music didn't work as well in the film because I noticed it getting quieter than the rest of the score. I didn't notice the theme that you mentioned, Ender. Its on the CD but I don't think it survived in the film. But maybe I just missed it.

- Adam

[Henry B 50]

Is that the one where it's played by strings in track 13 on the CD? Because I meant the other one, where it's played very softly by brass, somewhere in the CD I can't remember now. I'm not hearing things, am I?

Yes, it's in "Grievous and the Droids," but it was cut from the film.

[Luke Skywalker 1,807]

Anyone can anwer my question about the opening music?

Please, i need it

[nightscape94 965]

Luke, I think that's just the reprise of that drum part because I remember hearing it after the opening crawl, isolated, leading into the Force march, then later on as it appears on the CD. It's a shame they lopped off the beginning and edited it right into the action...

Tim

[Luke Skywalker 1,807]

Oh thanks