The best superhero score

[Romão 2,274]

The recent debate about the Superman/Batman theme has got me curious.

(to simplify things a little bit, I will not include the scores of the sequels that were written by the same composer as the previous film)

Man, I really have to learn how to express myself in English :oops:

[Romão 2,274]

I hope I didn't forget nay influential or important superhero score.

:? Romão, fearing he did.

[Kevin McCallister 0]

Batman is fantastic, but Superman is perfect.

I love both scores, but Superman is just so much richer in themes and cues. And sadly, Batman still has 20 minutes of (great) unreleased music.

Spider-Man comes next I think. It's no Batman, but Elfman supplies the film with an exceptional score that DOES have themes (despite what the people at Ain't It Cool News say) . I love "Costume Montage!"

X-Men would be next IMO. It's not a great score to just listen to, but it suffices in the film. It'll be interesting to hear what John Ottman does (Ottman is rescoring X-Men for the new S.E. DVD as well as the sequel. Wonder what Michael Kamen thinks of this?).

Elliot Goldenthal's Batman is, IMO, an insult to Danny Elfman and is far too bombastic and overbearing. I'll take the theme for the 60s show over that.

I've never heard the Crow score. How is it?

[Romão 2,274]

I do agree that overall Superman has more and better themes than Batam, excluidng the main themes, where I think Batman takes the lead.

And it is a pitty those 20 minutes are still unavailable.

[Morn 8]

I say Superman of course!

With Batman Forever second. After that I don't really care

[ocelot 508]

Superman as best score

X-Men as best film

[Hlao-roo 389]

Hey, what about Darkman (Danny Elfman) and The Meteor Man (Cliff Eidelman)?

Biased little creeps...

[David Vincent 8]

What do you expect in a forum dedicated to John Williams ? :-)

[Morn 8]

Whoever votes against Williams should be banned

[mahler3 478]

Goldmith's 'Supergirl' is a fine score. Just think this theme could have ended up as some of the fabric to the Superman score according to Richard Donner's commentary quote of originally approaching Goldsmith.

Thank the maker that this didn't occur

"I wanted Williams all along" - Ricard Donner (Phew!)

[CYPHER 1]

I'm the first (and hopefully not only) guy, who's voted for X-Men. Batman is a good score that works well in the film. I'm venting my anger and disappointment at the ineptitude of Spider-Man the film by targeting its score in this instance for a thorough dissing. And the score kinda sucked too: typical recent Elfman, all pulsing, yet pointless noise. I haven't actually seen Superman yet and all I've heard of the score is the main theme. While this is obviously excellent, I don't think I'm qualified to vote for it if I haven't heard more of the score, or actually seen the film (Now some here would argue that this doesn't actually make me qualified to vote in this poll, but oh well... :tongue2:). But X-Men is an exceptional score for the film. I haven't listened to much of it on its own, and I'm not sure I'd want to more than once or twice, but it suited the tone of the movie very well. What's more it was eminently compatible with the characters: the X-Men, while righteous and respectable are not well-loved and glorified heroes in the bombastic sense a la Superman and to a lesser extent Spider-Man. They do strive to protect a world that hates and fears them afterall, so a Superman style 'superhero' theme wouldn't have been appropriate at all.

CYPHER

[stewdog1 50]

Superman of course.

I agree with the above poster, ban those who don't vote JW.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Superman as best score

X-Men as best film

I agree Superman is the best score

I disagree about X-Men. It was an ok film, no way it will be a classic.

Superman the movie IS a classic.

It is the best acted, best photographed, best scored, has the best storytelling, and has the best opening.

It is the only superhero film that is also an epic film. It also has a soul, I am not sure the others have.

[Marian Schedenig 8,227]

Superman. Though Batman Forever comes somewhat close. I don't think it's nearly as great as the highlights from Superman, but as I've said before, I'm not that excited about the Superman score as a whole.

I've also said before that since last year's concert in London, I enjoy Goldsmith's Supergirl theme even more than Williams' - but as far as whole scores go, Superman is still a lot better. Girl is nice, but too repetitive.

Batman is a nice score. Spider-Man was really annoying in the movie, too loud and inappropriate. Can't remember Crow. And I've never heard X-Men.

Marian - who watched Batman Forever because he likes the score a lot, and regretted it.

[Trumpeteer 302]

I knew I would vote Superman before I entered the thread.

But, I truly enjoy listening to Batman and Batman Forever. Both scores fit the feel of the film wonderfully.

[Luke Skywalker 1,798]

:plain: SUperman of course

[Figo 2]

I voted for Ka-Lel, last son of the planet Krypton.

The only good superhero score(s) ever composed by Danny Elfman were for Pee-Wee Herman.

THE CROW?!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest]

Hey the Crow score is awesome. Truly amazing, innovative and interesting. For someone who usually only goes for orchestral scores, this score was an interesting change. Very good.

Superhero score however, I don't think the Crow is a superhero, so it shouldn't even be on this list.

Best Score = Superman

Best Film = Spiderman

[UCFKevin 0]

Why, Superman, of course. It's the second best theme ever created by anyone (second to the Force theme).

HOWEVER the Batman theme is DAMN close.

[Kradia 1]

On July 29 and 30 BRAVO is showing a six part series called "Music Behind the Scenes" . Their first part is on "Heroics".

This part will feature scores from Gladiator and Crouching tiger, and Bill Conti's Rocky. Strangely, It didn't say anything about JW...who's written one of the most heroic scores.....Superman.... :evil:

ARrghh...he's been shut out again....

Next w-e-e-k is romance and music.

Can someone say Titanic :roll:

[Romão 2,274]

The crow is a great score. very original and very haunting. Some of Revell's work is really interesting.

I don' think the Superman film is really that great. Thus far, I don't think there's been a single superhero movie that trully makes the character justice (although the Batmna films sometimes make ther villains justice, but just the villians, they kinda forget about batman).

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Its obvious that you don't even begin to understand Superman at all.

Perhaps you should give Superman another chance, but not being from America, you didn't grow up around the mythos that is Superman.

As far as Batman. Michael Keaton was superb as Batman, in a very complex performance that few thought he could pull off.

Once I saw the movie I had know doubt he was the right choice. Keaton is IMHO the best of the 4 Batmans from the recent films. Adam West will always be BATMAN in my mind.

Joe. Nanananananananana Batman. BAM, POW, ZAP.

[Guest]

There were only 3 batmans from the recent films. Keaton, Kilmer and Clooney.

[Figo 2]

I can't believe there are actually people at this board who either deny the greatness of the first Superman film -- hopefully, they don't know it only from the dreadful network television cut, which is more like a flabby outtakes reel -- or haven't seen it at all!

Personally, I hated everything about The Crow, a judgment which definitely extends to the score. This is one of the worst movies I ever endured in a theatre. Discursive "plot," which should have ended with the cliched Bronson-esque dispatching of the rapists/killers. But no, someone realized the movie was only about an hour long at that point, so they had to introduce a new villain. The film culminates in a leaden duel atop a cathedral in the middle of a thunderstorm. How hackneyed. And how very, very tedious. Too many filmmakers today know their Tim Burton, but nothing, apparently, about the classics. What we get is a homage to a homage to a homage to a homage. Call me old fashioned, but I would think that a director should be required to watch a few movies before actually attempting to direct. A thoroughly unpleasant experience. Certainly, no one deserved to die in its making (except perhaps those responsible for its being produced). I can't believe some people actually liked it -- including a friend of mine, whose recommendations I have since learned to ignore.

Joe and I agree about a great many things, but I thought all the Batman movies sucked, through and through. (Okay, I didn't see the fourth, and I only caught the third on TV.) MICHAEL KEATON AS BATMAN?!!!!! I remember groaning at the announcement, all those years ago, and I'm afraid after actually witnessing his performance, I can't say that my opinion has been altered. Physically, he was all wrong for the part. They had to give the guy body armor to try and distract us from the fact that he has no chin whatsoever, and probably stands about 5-foot-two in his socks. Where's the adventure in sending out a hero in an invincible suit? This is not the Batman I grew up with. Sure, Batman is supposed to be dark and psychological, but he should also be able to move! Adam West may not have been all that faithful to the comics, either, but the TV series at least struck a whimsical tone and ran with it. Tim Burton knows everything about style and nothing at all about pace. He may be a lot of things, but a good storyteller ain't one of them. I'm also not a fan of Elfman's music -- although it beats the crap out of the Prince songs, which, regardless of their quality, had absolutely no place in a Batman movie. Such blatant commercialism has unfortunately become the rule, rather than the exception.

Figo, who will actually get to see Superman on the big screen next month (although in the recently retooled version ).

Hope it doesn't suck.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

It doesn't but its not perfect either. There is no way they can damage the heart and soul of the movie.

Since alot of the original sound had deteriorated so badly they had to recreate alot of the sound effects. Of course they went with the 90's approach rather than the 70's aproach. And they didn't do well in that but it is pasable.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Man, just about everything in your life is negative, isn't it.

Stefancos- who thinks no one can "bitch" about things as much as Figo.

[Gamecube 0]

Lay off stiff.

[Romão 2,274]

You sure are negative, Figo.

Michael Keaton was, IMHO, perfect as Batman.

Tim Burton is a great director (Batman, Ed Wood, Mars Attacks, Sleepy Hollow, Edward Scirssorhands), is a visual genious and is one of the very few directors that has cult following.

I agree with the comments on Prince's contribuition in the film, it's completly out of place.

The crow wasn't a great film, but the score is pretty interesting and original. Very atmospheric.

I do respect the character of Superman for its iconic value and what it started. Superman was the first.

But isn't it curious that Superman is considered to be a more American hero than batman, when Supes is a an alien and Bruce Wayne is, indeed, american?

But I still fail to see what's so great about the first Superman film. The only thing I see about it that's superb is the score. And Lex Luthor wasn't even bald (that's kinda a responde for the people that considerer Keaton a bad casting choice due to fisical qualities).

[David Coscina 4]

Superman has so much great music, although I favor the first half over the second. the serious music in Smallville is amazing (Pa Kent's Death) along with the Krypton music from the beginning.

After Superman, I'd probably go with UNBREAKABLE maybe because it's the most intelligent comic book movie ever made, and the music supports the film beautifully. Some great string writing in the vein of Vaughan Williams and a distant trumpet anthem that pays tribute to Williams' Superman, if only subconsciously.

I know. I'm on a James Newton Howard kick these days. But Spiderman is okay (should have been jazzier to my mind- I actually composed about 7 pieces based on Spiderman in 1998-2000). Batman and Batman Forever are not faves in my books for either composer. Goldenthal's best Batman music was oddly in COBB (Reno Ho). Or Demolition Man for that matter.

I won't even mention The Crow...

[Romão 2,274]

What's so bad about the Crow anyway?

I like the score a lot.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Man, just about everything in your life is negative, isn't it.

Stefancos- who thinks no one can "bitch" about things as much as Figo.  

See, that's why he's winning the poll...

[CYPHER 1]

I second that mention of Unbreakable. It's the best superhero film ever made and has a fine score too.

CYPHER

[Figo 2]

Tim Burton is vastly overrated, mainly by a lot of disenfranchised art students with nose-piercings. As I said, he has no concept whatsoever of storytelling. His only good films so far (and I wish he would just stop), were Edward Scissorhands, which in my opinion was a better satire of suburbia than American Beauty (except for the stupid Frankenstein ending) and Ed Wood. And it's quite possible both were accidents, especially Wood, which was very lucky to be graced with a transcendant performance by Martin Landau. Oh yeah, I also liked Pee-Wee's Big Adventure, which seems to be more Tim's speed than Batman. He should be painting graphic novels, not directing.

As for the character of Superman as American icon, I don't see any irony at all in his being from another planet. We're all immigrants (or descended from immigrants) here in the States, after all. What could be more American than that? Anyway, Clark Kent was raised in the Midwest, an area of the country which has, traditionally, been depicted as the seat of morality and good values. Batman is an urban phenomenon, the jaded soul of the American city, and occupies the same realm as Edward Hopper's painting "Nighthawks," and the American hardboiled detective novel. I don't see any problem with calling either of them quintessential American heroes.

I agree with Fiery Angel (great name, by the way -- after the opera by Prokofiev?) that the first half of Superman is more compelling than the second. Talk about iconic! Too many superhero films these days dispense with or severely undersell their protagonists' mythic roots. Richard Donner struck precisely the right tone with the Smallville scenes. As for Lex Luthor not being bald -- did you not see the end? I agree, Lex is not quite what he was in the comics. In fact, the shenanigans with Otis could have been lifted right out of the Batman television series. But Gene Hackman is a great actor, and I think he pulled it off. It was much more painful to see him in Superman IV.

Believe it or not, I too liked Unbreakable. I think a lot of people were disappointed, because they went into the theatre expecting another Sixth Sense. But if you take the film on its own terms, and suspend your disbelief just a little bit, it's actually a pretty good movie. And it was filmed just around the corner from my old bookshop. I actually saw Sam Jackson standing outside smoking a cigarette!

Figo, surprised to be branded negative by Stefancos.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

As for the character of Superman as American icon, I don't see any irony at all in his being from another planet.  We're all immigrants (or descended from immigrants) here in the States, after all.

Let me take this opportunity to remind you that immigration is not limited to America.

What could be more American than that?  Anyway, Clark Kent was raised in the Midwest, an area of the country which has, traditionally, been depicted as the seat of morality and good values.

Figo, surprised to be branded negative by Stefancos.  

You never realized i considered you to be a rather cynical and negative person?

Stefancos- who finds that hard to believe.

[David Coscina 4]

I agree with Fiery Angel (great name, by the way -- after the opera by Prokofiev?) |

Yes, you are correct. My post name is from Prokofiev's Fiery Angel opera. Pretty much the only one I really dig from him. His 3rd Symphony uses the material from the opera in astounding ways. If you want a seriously heavy piece of music, try out Riccardo Muti's reading of the 3rd.

[Figo 2]

Try it out? I'll have you know, I own it! I'm actually playing Muti's version of the Prokofiev 5th in the next hour (Muti's birthday today). Do you know Jarvi's recording of the complete opera?

Steffy, Steffy, Steffy -- as usual, you take my remarks out of context. My response to Merkel, if you had bothered to read his post, was wholly appropriate. Of course, every country has its share of immigrants, even places no one in their right mind would want to immigrate to (like Holland). Merkel was pointing out the irony that Superman is considered a quintessential American hero, and yet he hails from another planet. What no one seems to have leaped upon is the fact that he was created by a couple of Jewish Canadians.

Figo, negative, perhaps, but seldom ill-informed.

[David Coscina 4]

Try it out?  I'll have you know, I own it!  I'm actually playing Muti's version of the Prokofiev 5th in the next hour (Muti's birthday today).  Do you know Jarvi's recording of the complete opera?

Yep. I own it. Better than the live recording. Very distracting hearing those character's stomp all over the stage.

Did you notice the motif from Stravinsky's Firebird in Fiery Angel? Scholar's say this was Prokofiev's way of laughing at Stravinsky and his followers. I believe this too. There was always a bit of a rivalry between those two.

[Justin 2]

Superman! Superman! SUUUUPEEEERRRMAN!!

Justin -

[Ren 75]

I just don't know how anyone could say Superman can't win. Look at the premise that story has set for American Culture.

[Figo 2]

Try it out?  I'll have you know, I own it!  I'm actually playing Muti's version of the Prokofiev 5th in the next hour (Muti's birthday today).  Do you know Jarvi's recording of the complete opera?

Yep. I own it. Better than the live recording. Very distracting hearing those character's stomp all over the stage.

Did you notice the motif from Stravinsky's Firebird in Fiery Angel? Scholar's say this was Prokofiev's way of laughing at Stravinsky and his followers. I believe this too. There was always a bit of a rivalry between those two.

Bartok did the same thing to Shostakovich, with his Concerto for Orchestra, which openly mocks the Leningrad Symphony. Now I have to go home and listen to The Fiery Angel this afternoon!

Prokofiev may have felt as if he enjoyed a rivalry with Stravinsky. Comparisons were always being drawn, and he was certainly striving for a succes de scandale on the magnitude of his compatriot's Le sacre du printemps -- but it wasn't to be. Stravinsky got there first, and left Prokofiev in the dust.

That's not to say Prokofiev didn't have it all over Stravinsky when it came to melodic invention and -- when he finally found the courage to just be himself -- popular appeal.

[Romão 2,274]

I just don't know how anyone could say Superman can't win.  Look at the premise that story has set for American Culture.

Well, I'm not american.

And BTW, Figo, I'm no art student, and Edwrad Scissorhands and Ed Wood werent' great films by accident. And Sleepy Hollow and Mars Attacks are also great films.

[Figo 2]

I just don't know how anyone could say Superman can't win.  Look at the premise that story has set for American Culture.

Well, I'm not american.

And BTW, Figo, I'm no art student, and Edwrad Scissorhands and Ed Wood werent' great films by accident. And Sleepy Hollow and Mars Attacks are also great films.

None of them were great. I wouldn't go overboard, here. Sleepy Hollow and Mars Attacks could hardly even be called good. Have you ever read Washington Irving? You'd be hard pressed to find any plot points in common. Even supposing we take it on its own terms, Sleepy Hollow was rather thin brew. Good production design (and Christopher Walken) does not a good film make.

Perhaps Burton should stick to movies with characters named Ed?

Figo, wishing the last one had been called Planet of the Eds.

[Morn 8]

That's not to say Prokofiev didn't have it all over Stravinsky when it came to melodic invention and -- when he finally found the courage to just be himself -- popular appeal.

Stravinsky keep pushing the envelope though

[Figo 2]

Listening to The Fiery Angel all damn afternoon.

Here's Prokofiev, kvetching about Stravinsky [from the liner notes]: "Could it be that in Moscow they saw a Wagnerian influence in this opera? What the devil! I had nothing of the sort in mind and don't even like that composer any more. And tell your little modernist, by the way, that another little modernist, whom they tout hereabouts as the very Moses of modishness, was not above whistling a bit of Meistersinger in his Apollo!"

The Moses of Modishness! I can practically see him as he is writing this, looking all the world like Ronald Lacey, the sadistic Nazi in Raiders of the Lost Ark, to whom he bore an uncanny resemblance. I'm betting you could have fried an egg on his shiny little forehead.

[Morn 8]

My god Figo, why do you associate modernism with nazism? Don't you realise it's important for the future of music?

Morn - Who loves modernism

[Figo 2]

What are you talking about, Morn? I was just saying Prokofiev looks a hell of a lot like Ronald Lacey. For godsake man, pour yourself another cup of coffee!

Figo, who only a few months ago was lambasted for defending so-called ivory tower composers.

[Morn 8]

Thought you were implying he was like that nazi as well in more than looks

[King Mark 3,631]

I wonder if this poll shoud even have been made.

K.M.Superman :music.

[King Mark 3,631]

Goldmith's 'Supergirl' is a fine score.  

(Phew!)

Yeah,and beats the crap out of Superman

Dan Hobgood

[David Coscina 4]

Goldmith's 'Supergirl' is a fine score.  

(Phew!)

Yeah,and beats the crap out of Superman

Dan Hobgood

How can one piece of music beat the crap out of other music. Especially when we're talking Williams and Goldsmith? I think they are on par with each other in terms of talent and effective writing for the film medium.

This isn't a boxing match you know. Sheesh.