We are witness to John Williams declining ability.

[nightscape94 965]

Actually, this year is awesome for movies, and I've generally loved many films that have come out.

Tim

[Incanus 5,716]

To say John Williams is declining in his ability is ignoring the obvious, which is most movies these days are crap.

I'm sorry that is a ridiculous statement.

People have been saying for many dacades now that movies these days are crap, and that the old movies were far better.

It's like every generation hating the music their children listening too.

But it is only natural. Everything was better in the golden olden days you know The pidgeons were fatter, grass was greener, sky was more blue (no it was not black and white like those old movies have you believe). People were happier and kinder and candy rained from the sky... I'll just stop now.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I have yet to be convinced that the world was a better place in the pre-internet years.

Old coots!

[Incanus 5,716]

For me us a film music fan the pre internet era could not have been worse. There were very few people who cared to listen to my rants about film music. Now there is a whole internet full of MBs for me to torture with my uninsigthful banter

[Ledzo 0]

llll

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Also, the crap movies from the 40's, 50, 60, and 70's have long been forgotten.

[mstrox 6,651]

I'll come out of hiding to play.

I agree with Joe. Although I think Williams' work has been growing hit-or-miss since around 1995, it seems to be getting more and more frustrating to me. Star Wars Episode III was a huge disappointment (both as a score and as a film), whereas I and II were, at least for the scores' part, not--and after seeing the movies of I and II, I didn't exactly have high hopes for the score or the film of Episode III. I haven't heard any Geisha yet, so I can't comment on it.

Although I think War of the Worlds, while hard to listen to as a seperate album, is Williams' best work since A.I.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Also, the crap movies from the 40's, 50, 60, and 70's have long been forgotten.

Not by me, and I'm only 20. Most movies from the last five years have done very little to tickle my fancy. Some of them may be crap, like some of Hitch's less-than-stellar films, but they're good crap.

[Incanus 5,716]

Also, the crap movies from the 40's, 50, 60, and 70's have long been forgotten.

Yep. That is true also but the movies that Williams has scored in the 70's like Eiger Sanction and 1941 were not the most brilliant moives and yielded still good or relativley good scores. It was funny to read Bernard Herrmann complaining about the movies being crap in one interview from 1970. He said there were no good films any more and the popular music was horrible.And he also bashed the audience. "Crappy movies with crappy music for a crappy audience" were his words. The movies at the beginning of the 70's were not so great I suppose:) But there are always those who see the decline where there is none and pine for the "good old days".

[Ledzo 0]

llll

[Incanus 5,716]

There is a huge amount of bad movies being produced these days. Most do not reach the theaters even but live only on DVD or VCR formats. I have more than once made the error and rented an obscure movie like that and regretted the very instant I have watched it for a minute. Of course I can't speak for previous decades and I am sure there were lots of bad movies then also.

[Ledzo 0]

llll

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

I agree with Joe.  

Although I think War of the Worlds, while hard to listen to as a seperate album, is Williams' best work since A.I.

Spot the irony

[matmilne 0]

Indeed, actually i wouldn't have got any of my censored work known if there wasn't the internet and i wouldn't have had to score any censored movies either. However i wouldn't have been able to get in touch with anyone famous so my career wouldn't have gone anywhere.

The internet's impact will not fully be known for another 30 years however preliminary estimations suggest that it has had the same effect on the telephone society as the telephone had on the mail society.

[mstrox 6,651]

I agree with Joe.  

Although I think War of the Worlds, while hard to listen to as a seperate album, is Williams' best work since A.I.

Spot the irony

"Although" being the key word

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

AI and joe do not mix toghether...

[Ledzo 0]

llll

[nightscape94 965]

AI and joe do not mix toghether...

Shawn Murphy should be able to take care of that.

Tim

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

That whould be the blowing point of the relation i fear...

[matmilne 0]

so what does this debate come down to?

Are his abilities really declining or is he writing incdental music with little effort, saving up all his good melodies for another great movie like jp?

I wish it was the latter but it may not be so considdering how many films he's scored. Eventually the creative side burns out and you're left with only memories.

I'm sure he's just saving up really good melodies to complement a really good movie so that it becomes a great movie.

[nightscape94 965]

Soooo...you're saying he's just sitting on a goldmine of melodies, conserving them for a more opportune time?

Tim

[matmilne 0]

wishful thinking perhaps but it would make a lot of business sense. a great movie is shown a lot so loads of royalties there and a great score gets a great album and a lot of awards so again big bucks there so maybee he's just waiting for an inspirational movie.

or perhaps he's waiting for something good to go out on.

a lot of good musicians retired with the highest point in their career

[Jeshopk 8]

When Williams sits down and writes a new theme, he does not think to make it memorable, but appropriate. And he also seeks to satisfy his artistic goals for the piece, which are not always to be so obvious as the Raiders March. Williams is not afraid to write a theme that the audience won't remember consciously. I doubt he thought JAWS would be memorable. It is hardly a theme, but more of a sound effect.

[A24 4,346]

When Williams sits down and writes a new theme, he does not think to make it memorable, but appropriate. And he also seeks to satisfy his artistic goals for the piece, which are not always to be so obvious as the Raiders March. Williams is not afraid to write a theme that the audience won't remember consciously.

You sound as if you know Williams' most inner thoughts, Jessie.

[Jeshopk 8]

Well, he has said this himself. He doesn't expect people to consciously remember the themes, but for them to effect the viewer subconsciously who sees the film once and never buys the album, which is what most of the viewers will be.

[A24 4,346]

Well, he has said this himself. He doesn't expect people to consciously remember the themes, but for them to effect the viewer subconsciously who sees the film once and never buys the album, which is what most of the viewers will be.

I'm shocked!

[matmilne 0]

never judge a book by its cover, never judge a person by what they say.

[Jeshopk 8]

His memorable themes are "happy accidents" as he says. But is it any accident that his most memorable themes happen to be for huge blockbusters? Could it be that the consensus for the memorability of these themes springs not from the notes written by the composer, but by the immense popularity of the films?

Would anyone remember Raiders March if it was written for The Patriot? I would, but I remember the Patriot too, so I am a freak.

[Ledzo 0]

llll

[Jeshopk 8]

And Azkaban and Sith are very recent scores. I think much of the frustration by melody lovers comes from the fact that only once a year on average do they get the kind of melodic output they crave.

Wherease I get off on all of it.. Lucky me

We're all spoiled, that much is certain.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I consider this to be a healthy debate. Why else talk about music, but to describe opinions?

Well indeed it is a good debate. But the chances of changing somebody's opinion about Williams are quite small and I am sure that has never been the main point here. Carry on soldier!

the whole point of my thread was to encourage discourse,

[Padme 0]

John Williams is better now that he has ever been. His themes are becoming more complex. His score for Revenge of the Sith was daring and quite simply.... perfect. His way of bringing out the correct feelings and emotions to suit the imagery was astounding. He is by far the best composer around today

[JoeinAR 1,949]

his music is no more complex now than it was back in 1977.

[Padme 0]

Do you have proof of this? I love all his soundtracks but as years have gone on there has been a progression, its only natural, the more you do something the better you get at it

[scissorhands 16]

his music is no more complex now than it was back in 1977.

LOL

I agree with everything Padme said. The current Williams is the best Williams ever. Moreover, his works sound unique, personal, he seems so comfortable writing as he never did before.

[Padme 0]

Exactly, Across the Star was the first time I realised how wonderful he was becoming, it is very complex for what should be just a simple, tragic love theme, but it isnt. The layers and diversity of the music is beautiful and it is still one of my favourite pieces of what he has written

[Ledzo 0]

llll

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I doubt many of these modern scores are any more complex than CE3K, ET, Monsignor, Dracula, Star Wars, Superman, ESB and many other 74 to 84 scores.

[scissorhands 16]

but the modern scores feel like there's more to them because the pressence of the whole orchestra is always there now.

Have you actually heard "Saving Private Ryan", "Stepmom", "A.I." or "Minority Report"? Those are even more austere works.

[scissorhands 16]

So he didn't use full orchestra, huh?

(scissorhands, aplying some more demagogy to this thread)

[Ledzo 0]

llll

[King Mark 3,631]

If I have to find a real "peak" in all of Williams career,it has to be Amazing Stories,the Mission.That's where the full impact of his thematically driven style for Star Wars,Raiders and E.T. all came togheter brillantly for 30 minutes.For this short score the best that John Williams has to offer was developped to the full extent that it could be.Afterwards his style changed.

K.M.

[Ledzo 0]

llll

[Incanus 5,716]

You can choose what period you like as Williams' peak of abilities. His abilities have grown over the years and his current style is as brilliant IMO than the adventure mode he was in late 70's to mid 80's. It is different but just as brilliant.

I have personally grown out of my constant craving for "Williams fanfare and theme sugar rush" (although they are nice now and then) but they are not required for me to enjoy Williams score. His themes are as strong as ever IMO. The more lyrical they have become the more I have liked them. But a good fanfare now and then truly can't hurt can it?

[A24 4,346]

I miss the "jazz" in his action scores, at least CE3K had some interesting harmony here and there. John never seem to go for those strange chords anymore. His new wall to wall action is impressively written but the overall expression strikes me as a little bland. Take some cues from WOTW, glue them to another film and I'm sure nobody, except for knowledgeable fans, will notice it. It's because of the lack of hooks, the difficulty to identify it and indentify WITH it, that John's music has a certain "one size fits all" characteristics. OK, perhaps that isn't a good example but it's how I feel. Much of his music has become less distinguishable. It's a fluent but colorless stream. Again, take the score to WOTW, scramble it, put it in the blender, shake it. Whatever comes out of it, it will still be able to serve the film.

----------------

Alex Cremers

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I miss the "jazz" in his action scores, at least CE3K had some interesting harmony here and there. John never seem to go for those strange chords anymore. His new wall to wall action is impressively written but the overall expression strikes me as a little bland. Take some cues from WOTW, glue them to another film and I'm sure nobody, except for knowledgeable fans, will notice it. It's because of the lack of hooks, the difficulty to identify it and indentify WITH it,  that John's music has a certain "one size fits all" characteristics. OK, perhaps that isn't a good example but it's how I feel. Much of his music has become less distinguishable. It's a fluent but colorless stream. Again, take the score to WOTW, scramble it, put it in the blender, shake it. Whatever comes out of it, it will still be able to serve the film.  

----------------

Alex Cremers

I agree 100% with Alex.

[matmilne 0]

Joe is right of course. Johnny is just another film composer at the end of the day. none of his work is divine or anything like it, however occasionally he does produce wonderful, repetetive inspirational themes that seperate him from the other film composers.

[Lurker 5]

I miss the "jazz" in his action scores, at least CE3K had some interesting harmony here and there. John never seem to go for those strange chords anymore. His new wall to wall action is impressively written but the overall expression strikes me as a little bland. Take some cues from WOTW, glue them to another film and I'm sure nobody, except for knowledgeable fans, will notice it. It's because of the lack of hooks, the difficulty to identify it and indentify WITH it,  that John's music has a certain "one size fits all" characteristics. OK, perhaps that isn't a good example but it's how I feel. Much of his music has become less distinguishable. It's a fluent but colorless stream. Again, take the score to WOTW, scramble it, put it in the blender, shake it. Whatever comes out of it, it will still be able to serve the film.  

----------------

Alex Cremers

I agree 100% with Alex.

So do I.

Neil

[Justin 2]

I miss the "jazz" in his action scores, at least CE3K had some interesting harmony here and there. John never seem to go for those strange chords anymore. His new wall to wall action is impressively written but the overall expression strikes me as a little bland. Take some cues from WOTW, glue them to another film and I'm sure nobody, except for knowledgeable fans, will notice it. It's because of the lack of hooks, the difficulty to identify it and indentify WITH it,  that John's music has a certain "one size fits all" characteristics. OK, perhaps that isn't a good example but it's how I feel. Much of his music has become less distinguishable. It's a fluent but colorless stream. Again, take the score to WOTW, scramble it, put it in the blender, shake it. Whatever comes out of it, it will still be able to serve the film.  

----------------

Alex Cremers

I agree 100% with Alex.

So do I.

Neil

Same here.

Justin

[Jeshopk 8]

I don't think a valid comparison between his old scores and new scores is possible. They both bear the same signature in sound, but the old movies were far too popular and important for there to be a fair comparison. They were basically the first movies of their kind, and the first big Williams scores of his full symphonic voice.

Those of us who prefer them are usually biased because:

A) We were impressionable young kids

B) We have known the music for decades therefore hear more in it than we did in the first few years of listening.

C) The movies were monumental in culture compared to now when we've seen it all.

D) Nostalgia (The way the recordings used to sound, memories of simpler times, etc.)

The only valid assessment will come by future generations who are not informed by our prejudices.

And keep in mind, it is a generational thing. Most of us here were "hit" by a Williams score at some point in our childhood and therefore whatever we heard then is our favorite. I've heard people who think Jurassic Park is the best. But I was already 17 then and had heard all the big Williams scores, so I compared it to the old days at the time. With distance, I can see that Jurassic Park is a remarkable score.

Is it any wonder that Neil and Joe are both older members who followed Williams career from an early age, and are constantly being let down by Williams' slight evolutions? I am about Neil's age, but I have learned to let go of expectations and accept the new.

But the time I had trouble with was when Williams gave up complex dissonance, in the late 80s until Jurassic Park. In all my favorite late 70s and earky 80s works, Williams sounded more like Nixon, Sleepers, Prequels, Rosewood, Potter, etc. with complex dissonance and harmonies between lush themes.

I find it highly ironic when people do not realize that Williams has returned to his 70's 80's sound more than ever since then. But this time, he's back with TEETH. And that's what we hear in amazing cues like Zam the Assassin, where Williams freely unleashes his compositional muscle on a terrified audience. I love that new stuff.