We are witness to John Williams declining ability.

[Jeshopk 8]

Am I the only one who is calling Joe out that he is kidding?

[Jeshopk 8]

surely you don't say to further your credibility because its sure as hell doesn't.  

notice he's been nominated for Oscars for all the original trilogy, and he's been nominated for the prequels how many times?

And Williams was nominated for Home Alone 1 and not Home Alone 2, so what's your point?

[matmilne 0]

perhaps this is all one big joke, but there is the important point. He's been at it for 50 years, while there's no doubt in my mind he'll carry on for as long as he can, at some point in the next 30 years something will happen to stop him. I have a feeling that he will compose till he dies since he hasn't retired 50 years from when he started. However we've all got to face facts, at some point he will be consigned to the history books. But hopefully not for a long time yet, i'm sure there's a lot more to come, from the giant.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Am I the only one who is calling Joe out that he is kidding?

I am not kidding Jess, I believe he is declining in his ability,

thats not to say he doesn't have a great score or two left in him, but it will have to be under extraordinary circumstances.

[SturgisPodmore 0]

Am I the only one who is calling Joe out that he is kidding?

Certainly not.

~Sturgis

[Jeshopk 8]

Then why do you contradict yourself, saying Memoirs would be a great score in another post (with hidden text) and sillily judging the midi in this post? You just love the attention my boy. Welcome back!

[A24 4,347]

I know Joe is not kidding.

[Jeshopk 8]

Then the title should just read "We are witness to John Williams declining ability to please JoeinAr "

Joe gave himself away when he said it was obvious Geisha would not be great by the MIDI. That's just pure comedy. Good Job Joe, at mixing your truth with farce.

I know you do believe the 70's and 80's to be Williams' most consistently good period of composing. But really, he is more consistently good now, and still writes classic music. Though, Joe, we know of your intolerance of harmonically complex music. Triads for you. I just say, it is a good thing Williams didn't get stuck where he was during Far and Away/Home Alone/Hook/Always/Jurassic Park/Indy III, and moved on to something more advanced sounding for those of us with a taste for variety and musical maturity. Williams had become a charicature of himself. And while I found those scores enjoyable and moving, it was simply time for him to incorporate his personal concert music sensibilities further into his film music output.

[nightscape94 965]

Maybe Joe is so wrapped up with the parody he's created for his persona on the messageboard that he has no idea what the hell is doing on anymore.

Tim, who ventured a guess.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I don't mind Joe at the best of times.

We both share a snooze during 2001: A Space Odyssey, both adore the "Love Theme" from Superman, and uhh... some other stuff I can't remember. But his intolerance toward anything new and interesting from Williams in anything besides Potter is quite puzzling, so it's clear he never quite got on board the new X-TREME JOHNNY wagon.

A few years ago, I've realized it's not just Williams' themes and melodies that I love, but it's his style and depth of orchestration that I adore just as much. From hearing scores like Jurassic Park III and Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, I just know how important that unique Williams "sound" adds to the enjoyment of a score. However, Joe seems to make it sound like Williams is just throwing random notes onto the paper, when I couldn't imagine the maestro not thinking this is going to be a difficult task. His recent output is proof that he's attempting to be bold, creative and fresh with each new score.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

I just say, it is a good thing Williams didn't get stuck where he was during Far and Away/Home Alone/Hook/Always/Jurassic Park/Indy III, and moved on to something more advanced sounding for those of us with a taste for variety and musical maturity.

I wish John Williams composed more like that these days.

Ray Barnsbury - *weighing back and forth: Far and Away...War of the Worlds...Far and Away...War of the Worlds...*

[Incanus 5,716]

That period from the end of the 80's to the middle of the 90's has a very recognisable sound. And I must say I miss that sometimes. But show must go on.

[nightscape94 965]

You know there are people who will one day say: "I got into John Williams after listening to 'War of the Worlds', and that opened my eyes to a whole new type of music." Just as most of us got into Williams either from the late 70s output, or the late 80s/early 90s stuff, there will be people 10 years from now saying the same thing with his late 90s/early 'aughts' music...

Tim

[Incanus 5,716]

That is probably true. Of course fans who have gotten into Williams' music in the 70's have hard time understanding that somebody could be affected so much by e.g. WOTW that he/she became JW fan. But that's the way it it. Individual tastes are so strange aren't they

[matmilne 0]

declining or not he is still the best theme composer in the entire world!

for the moment.

[stewdog1 50]

Of all the scores in recent years that may highlight JW's declining it would be AOTC. But considering how much better ROTS was, I'm thinking that it is the material more than the man.

One thing that Goldsmith was good at that JW never has been was being able to write wonderful scores for horrible movies. Granted, JW probably has the ability to pick and choose more than Goldsmith did, but it seems like certain movies inspire him to write better than others. For example, I doubt JW could have written as good of music for Star Trek as Goldsmith has. Those movies just aren't as inspiring as say ESB or Jurassic Park. But that's just my opinion.

I will say that JW's music the last several years is a bit harder for me to get into than his past work, but I think that is a familiarity issue rather than a decline to mediocrity as Joe says. And right there is what I think a lot of people have a problem with. Star Wars, Indy, Superman, etc., were so familiar to all of us growing up that it is hard to move on to newer sounds.

[A24 4,347]

Your avatar is very funny.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

I just thought the same thing

[stewdog1 50]

Your avatar is very funny.

This website IS about him, right?

[ChrisAfonso 186]

Sure. That's William Jones there in you pic, isn't it?

[stewdog1 50]

Sure. That's William Jones there in you pic, isn't it?

I thought it was THE John Williams....

[Chris ChrusherComix 46]

We are witness to John Williams declining ability?

Other than Star Wars Episodes I and III with a kinda-OK II, I'd say "yes." But those two scores were brilliant. It's every single other soundtrack besides them since The Lost World that's made me wonder though. Especially those atrociously boring Spielberg scores and absolutely mediocre Potter scores.

-Chris, Who wonders why some people post here though, considering all the bashing of Williams music and movies since every time I come here I see more and more bashing....

[Jeshopk 8]

Especially those atrociously boring Spielberg scores and absolutely mediocre Potter scores.

The old Chris Crusher wouldn't have said that.

You've lost the magic :cry:

[Jeshopk 8]

Of all the scores in recent years that may highlight JW's declining it would be AOTC. But considering how much better ROTS was, I'm thinking that it is the material more than the man.

The quality between them is indistinguishable in my ears. Both the same level of business, orchestration, emotion, etc. There is less composed for/released for AOTC, which just makes it an incomplete score IMO. And of course the emotions in the last film are more potent. But one must separate the scenes from the notes in determining musical quality.

One thing that Goldsmith was good at that JW never has been was being able to write wonderful scores for horrible movies.

I'm sure you'd have said that if Deep Rising was the AOTC soundtrack :roll:

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Deep Rising is a fun score.

[Henry B 50]

-Chris, Who wonders why some people post here though, considering all the bashing of Williams music and movies since every time I come here I see more and more bashing....

It's every single other soundtrack besides them since The Lost World that's made me wonder though. Especially those atrociously boring Spielberg scores and absolutely mediocre Potter scores.

What?

[A24 4,347]

-Chris, Who wonders why some people post here though, considering all the bashing of Williams music and movies since every time I come here I see more and more bashing....

It's every single other soundtrack besides them since The Lost World that's made me wonder though. Especially those atrociously boring Spielberg scores and absolutely mediocre Potter scores.

What?

Yeah, now that Star Wars is history, I guess Chris is questioning his own "fanhood".

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

-Chris, Who wonders why some people post here though, considering all the bashing of Williams music and movies since every time I come here I see more and more bashing....

It's every single other soundtrack besides them since The Lost World that's made me wonder though. Especially those atrociously boring Spielberg scores and absolutely mediocre Potter scores.

What?

Yeah, now that Star Wars is history, I guess Chris is questioning his own "fanhood".

There's still the TV series, and any other money grabbing spin-off they can come up with.

[Jeshopk 8]

Deep Rising is a fun score.

Yes, but better than AOTC? The point is some people say that Goldsmith made good for bad movies, but not Williams. Yet when they honestly compared the scores, they'd see a double standard.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I don't have the high expectations of a score like Deep Rising the way I have of a score for a film that caries the Star Wars title.

Also I don't really see the point in comparing a Goldsmith score with a Williams score, unless there share similar subject matter in some way (Superman, Supergirl)

[tony69 0]

i think john has moved on to his 3rd Stage. (1st=jazz, 2nd=heroic orchestral, 3rd= more dramatic, gutsy stuff). and most people like heroic orchestral stuff so naturally they would not nominate him that much. it was like beethoven and his 3 stages. his late period was often not much admired since it was 'unmelodic' and was not admired as much by the public; take his last string quartets for example. but in reality, they were even better and more developmental. maybe williams is just in his 3rd stage and he's being like beethoven. which means he will become the most impiortant compers in the next 400 years.

or another reason why he's not faring so well accordoing to joe, could simply be the directors (aka steven spielberg) are doing different movies which requires more dramatic stuff. i mean when did steven do anything very dramatic before schindlers (munich or sPP)? (always does not count:p)

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Empire Of The Sun, The Color Purple....

[JoeinAR 1,949]

well Stefan, I'd say I've created another successful thread, gets people thinking.

even got Crusher with his bizarre ideas to even post.

[Jeshopk 8]

I don't have the high expectations of a score like Deep Rising the way I have of a score for a film that caries the Star Wars title.

Then change your expectations, and you'll be able to enjoy AOTC. Maybe you'll find that although it is different from the Original scores, it has enough depth and craft, and new flavors, that make it a new kind of positive experience.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Who said I haven't?

I enjoy most tracks on the AOTC CD, though NOT Jango's Escape.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Then change your expectations, and you'll be able to enjoy AOTC. Maybe you'll find that although it is different from the Original scores, it has enough depth and craft, and new flavors, that make it a new kind of positive experience.

do you do drugs?

its the only way I could ever imagine AOTC being talked about like that.

[Jeshopk 8]

Hey maaan, open your mi-i-i-nd. AOTC is like, totally out there, man. Until you see all it's groovy colors, you don'y know what you're missing maaan!

[David Coscina 4]

Jesse, I'm with you on your assessment of Williams. I'm listening to Memoirs of a Geisha at the moment (streaming courtesy of Amazon.com- thumbs way up guys!). I think this is a beautiful score. It's got some Tan Dun like compositional staples but it also has a strong Williams presence. The short examples DO NOT do this score justice. It must be heard in its entirety. I would dare say this, of all scores of Williams' I've heard this year, deserves the Oscar nom. And I LOVE War of the Worlds. This has been a banner year for Johnny. And I much prefer Memoirs... to Seven Years in Tibet.

[Jeshopk 8]

I listened to the complete Geisha CD, and it has a pretty new feel. There seems to be some Western minimalism ala Newman or Glass in there with the asian music, and yes I did hear Tan Dun in its form and variety of orchestration. Very chamber like, with episodic solo sections, much like Symphony 1996 by Dun. I really liked it. Sometimes it reminded my of Amistad or 7 Years but mostly, it is something new by Williams.

Incidentally, I watched JAWS 2 (muted) while playing this for the 1st time. For those saying all Williams sounds the same, I'd like them to see this!

[David Coscina 4]

I believe that the more musically informed a person is, the more they can understand how Williams isn't a one-trick pony and that his compositional technique is friggin' god-like.

[Incanus 5,716]

It is so nice we are still at it here Can we ever get each other understand our point of view if some one has made up his/her mind about John Williams' abilities? I think no amount of arguing is going to change that unless the person you are trying to convince suddenly has a total change of heart. And I can't see that happening here in this thread any time soon. Still it is good to discuss these things and raise issues and conversations about every aspect of JW. I think little criticism is welcome now and then.

[Jeshopk 8]

I consider this to be a healthy debate. Why else talk about music, but to describe opinions?

[Incanus 5,716]

I consider this to be a healthy debate. Why else talk about music, but to describe opinions?

Well indeed it is a good debate. But the chances of changing somebody's opinion about Williams are quite small and I am sure that has never been the main point here. Carry on soldier!

[King Mark 3,631]

I don't see any declining abilities in TPM, HPPS,A.I.,the new themes in CoS,HPPOA and Terminal,RotS and Geisha

2002 was a mediocre year,that's all.

I'm indifferent to Minority Report and War of the Worlds,but I'm also indifferent to The River,Presumed Innocent which were written decades ago.

K.M.Who likes Today's Williams more than the 1994-1998 period

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Dang, I thought I was picky.

[Incanus 5,716]

I am an omnivore when it comes to Williams

And I have to admit I give Williams' music much more time to grow on me than some other composers. I know it is little biased but who cares

[Ledzo 0]

llll

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

To say John Williams is declining in his ability is ignoring the obvious, which is most movies these days are crap.

[Incanus 5,716]

You said it. And the music is there to fill up the uncomfortable silences. Some directors know how to use music many unfortunately do not.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

To say John Williams is declining in his ability is ignoring the obvious, which is most movies these days are crap.

I'm sorry that is a ridiculous statement.

People have been saying for many dacades now that movies these days are crap, and that the old movies were far better.

It's like every generation hating the music their children listening too.