We are witness to John Williams declining ability.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Joe, you make me jealous. I really think I should have made a thread titled "We are witness to JK Rowling's declining ability".

[Justin 2]

Do it. I dare ya!

I double dog dare ya!

I triple-!

....well maybe not triple.

Justin

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It's all so easy, when we get older, our abilities lessen, the mind becomes slower and we are unable to maintain a high level of concentration for a long period of time.

It's all perfectly natural and human.

I can't blame John Williams for not being as good as he was in his prime, but at least i've got the courage to acknowledge it.

You people are living in a dreamworld.

I guess Ford A. Thaxton had a point afterall.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Joe, you make me jealous.  I really think I should have made a thread titled "We are witness to JK Rowling's declining ability".

do it, by all means, however there is nothing to back it up, there is however ample evidence to back up

my claims.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Joe, you make me jealous.  I really think I should have made a thread titled "We are witness to JK Rowling's declining ability".

do it, by all means, however there is nothing to back it up, there is however ample evidence to back up

my claims.

Six words.

Sexed-up boarding school romantic comedy.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

if you call that a defense, don't plan on being a lawyer, for your clients sake.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Wrong. It's just there's a select few of us who are intelligent enough to see Rowling for the literary hack she really is and aren't blind to the horrid and inconsistant writing of HAP just because it's part of a best-selling franchise. Quite a shame people took the bait on this one.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

no, you've got it wrong,

by the way I'm glad your intelligent enough to see something that isn't true, that does bring something into question

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I know something smells wrong when I start caring for Malfoy and Snape more than Harry and his brat pack of ungrateful little snots. A lot of people seemed to like HAP because it abandonded the caps-lock Harry of OOTP, which was much more interesting, but I found this devil-may-care Harry to be written in the most pedantic, uninspired, amateurish and insipid way possible. Hermione was even worse with her 365-day PMS cycle, and don't give me that "they're teenagers" arguement because these characters showed more class and sophistication in their first year.

And super!Ginny was the most shallow character conceivable as Rowling didn't allow me to care for her relationship with Harry (the monster in Harry's pants was supposed to be funny, right?), she was just plunked there out of nowhere as if Rowling forgot about her. I, and many other readers were more invested in Harry's friendship, and forshadowed relationship with Hermione, but I must be "delusional", as Rowling would say, even though there is solid evidence for that pair in the previous five books.

Had this book been written first, it never would have been published.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

just your opinion, just as its mine about John, in the end only mine matters, didn't you know that, its in the rules. ^_^

[SturgisPodmore 0]

Good thing you know Rowling's characters better than she does, Drax.

You must be her biggest fan. ^_^

~Sturgis

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Good thing you know Rowling's characters better than she does, Drax.

You must be her biggest fan. ^_^  

~Sturgis

I reckon I do, since she's stated she's never gone back to re-read her novels. As for "biggest" fan, more like "bitterest" fan.

just your opinion, just as its mine about John, in the end only mine matters, didn't you know that, its in the rules.

"Anything else going on around here that's against the rules?"

[SturgisPodmore 0]

MMMMM, I wanna watch that again!

~Sturgis

[SturgisPodmore 0]

Okay, Joe, change it back. ^_^

JoeinAr comes with the Jaws 2 avatar.

~Sturgis

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I didn't mean to change it SP, and it wouldn't let me change it back at first.

[GoodMusician 56]

I personally do not agree that he’s lost his touch.

The more I listen to him and look at his decisions, the more I can understand him. If you notice, he seems to turn down scores that’ll hold him back. He had the opportunity to do Jurassic Park 3, turned it down, Harry Potter 4, turned it down...

Some may say “but it’s because they’re sequels.” True... but he did all SIX Star Wars... sequels and prequels.

I just have noticed that instead, his music is growing... changing. It’s like a living entity on its own. You look at the music he wrote back in the days of “Daddy O” and “Gidget Goes to Rome.”

Then look at the music to say, “Black Sunday.” Then latter on, “Jaws,” “Star Wars,” “ET”...each begins this chain of events... the music slowly pulls out of Jazz and turns into more orchestral. From that orchestral, he develops sounds he uses... motifs he uses often... his usage of 4th and 5th s.

He seems to keep certain sounds around for a while, but does move on. Compare that to “Jurassic Park.” I feel that “Jurassic Park” was as revolutionary a score as “War of the Worlds.” We move on, from “Home Alone” through the 90's where you get the almost playful childish years. Then you move to the latter 90's where the scores get deeper and deeper with say “Episode 1.” That score may be the pinacle of those years and also, the shifting point.

After that, you have A. I. which I must say, is one of the most remarkable scores he’s done! It is so completely different. That, however, spurred a change in his composing style which has grown darker and darker. He went from that on to Episode II and eventually III, the darkest of those. Then, he broadsides us all with “War of the Worlds,” this magnificent concoction of modern sounding music but with a classical base. This is astoundingly dark in it’s colour. He then moved on and we hear him now im Memoirs.

I can see where many of you are saying he’s loosing his touch because he doesn’t create these magnificent themes like he use to... but, for one, he hasn’t really needed to... and for two, I think that John Williams is picking up on something that you all are not:

The audience doesn’t want grandious themes... it wants MOVING music. Music that doesn’t make you want to sing along, but instead, feel the emotions... Some would argue “that’s what a theme does, it catches you and moves you along with it.” but I think John Williams is taking a new path... one that is moving further and further away from theme based music, and moving more along to tone relationships. Using great orchestrations instead of themes.

Imagine trying to make an Indiana Jones movie today with a love theme like Marion’s theme. I think the audience would gag... I was upset when the New Superman movie wasn’t going to use “Can You Read My Mind,” but that’s when I thought about it... even if you re-orchstrated it... you’d still have that theme which is not something audiences seem to want.

Look at Batman Begins. The music fit that movie really well... but did it have a theme? I’d argue that it didn’t. Look at “War of the Worlds.” It’s won awards and may win more. Did it have a theme? Maybe 2 motifs, but not any themes really.

I think that John Williams isn’t loosing his touch so much as moving in a different direction. One that deals more with the emotional impact of the music rather than the catchy theme.

Just my two cents.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

The masses aren't really after themes anymore. Look at any Potter forum and their comments about the music of Harry Potter. As ill-informed as some of them are, and as much as we may disagree with many of them, it's overwhelming to see that more and more people are starting to prefer emotional, incidental music as opposed to theme and variations. I'm not exactly one of these people, but I can still recognise that Williams is changing his approach. He's treading in new territory, new from that which he did for three-quarters of his career. Obviously the quality of his music, as is his ability, is arguable, but unless people recognise that his style has changed it's useless to say that he's better or worse than x amount of years ago.

[Incanus 5,716]

Can't we all just get along!

[nightscape94 965]

just your opinion, just as its mine about John, in the end only mine matters, didn't you know that, its in the rules. ^_^

Okay, I'm starting to regret sticking up for Joe a few posts back :?

Tim

[Sandor 797]

Well, I've given this a lot of thought. I agree with a lot of points GoodMusician made. Well said.

What we see with most composers (and even pop artists) is that they had a period in their careers when they were extremely fruitful. Williams had this period between 1975 and 1982. Jaws, Star Wars, CE3K, Superman, ESB, Raiders, E.T., ... He (nor any other composer) will ever top that string of classics.

BUT Williams writes music nowadays that he couldn't (or wasn't appropriate) back in those years. I still love his music. If we look at his post-Schindler's List years (his last truly classic score) I can sum up at least 20 themes that make me proud to be a Williams fan. Seven Years In Tibet, Hymn To The Fallen, Duel Of The Fates, Where Dreams Are Born, Hedwig's Theme, Across The Stars, Fawkes The Phoenix, A Window To The Past, Buckbeak's Flight, Elegy For Cello And Concerto, Anakin's Betrayal, Battle Of The Heroes (and many more). Those themes REALLY affect me and I listen to these pieces a lot more than anything from respected scores like The Towering Inferno.

He has written scores since Schindler's List which are as a whole unique and outstanding like A.I., HP/SS, HP/PoA or ROTS. Yes ROTS. I really don't understand all the criticism towards this score. Or the film for that matter. I'm happy I enjoy both thoroughly.

Joe and Stefan; please don't feel this "like it or leave" pressure from the board. I don't really read that at all in the replies given. But this is a John Williams FAN messageboard so you can expect some opposition.

If I were to post in a Michael Jackson messageboard that all his latest albums sucked and that only Thriller and Bad were good albums people wouldn't welcome me with open arms either. It would only be arrogant of me to think that. Being a king, veteran or Master wouldn't help me then.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

He has written scores since Schindler's List which are as a whole unique and outstanding like A.I., HP/SS, HP/PoA or ROTS. Yes ROTS. I really don't understand all the criticism towards this score. Or the film for that matter. I'm happy I enjoy both thoroughly.

I enjoy many of his modern output very much, but I definatly think that his late 70's and early 80's work is a lot stronger.

Suggesting such a thing on this MB seems to be a big no-no here.

The brainless fanboy twats that operate on this MB (usually about 75 to 80 % of regular posters at any given time just come here to find support in their believe that John Williasms is a brilliant man, every note he's ever composed is soooo much better then anyone else's and they are not the sad, possibly latent homo-sexual recluses their family and friends think they are because they listen to movie music from this old bearded guy.)

And you people know who you are, so don't ask me for names!

Joe and Stefan; please don't feel this "like it or leave" pressure from the board. I don't really read that at all in the replies given. But this is a John Williams FAN messageboard so you can expect some opposition.

Leave the board?

Without me or Joe there would be very little for you people to enjoy on the board.

Leave the board?

I AM the Board!

If I were to post in a Michael Jackson messageboard that all his latest albums sucked and that only Thriller and Bad were good albums people wouldn't welcome me with open arms either.

If I were on an Michael Jackson board all i'd be asking was if they thought that 12 year old kid seduced Michael or the other way around

It would only be arrogant of me to think that. Being a king, veteran or Master wouldn't help me then.

Is it arrogance to think outside the box? To have an opinion different from everybody else in the class?

I know it made me hating school.

[GoodMusician 56]

There is a difference between having an opinion, and being tyranical.

I understand that you're simply trying to portray that the board is or should be open to varying ideas... but you're being quite enforcive of it... which ironically, only makes you out to be a tyrant rather than an enforcer..

Everyone is open to their opinions, yea, but there are different threads for different thoughts... the idea is you'll find one you like...

As far as attaching the chracter of the people who frequent the board--truth or no truth--I find that quite obnoxious if not down right innapropriate.

I have said before that I didn't like certain John Williams scores... as have many people on here... no one is debating that some scores just arn't up to par... but when people are saying that John Williams himself is slipping and dont' really have any evidence and many people believe the opposite with good evidence to back themselves up... it's hard not to see it that way...

[Sandor 797]

Is it arrogance to think outside the box? To have an opinion different from everybody else in the class?

No. Read well what I wrote. I would be arrogant to expect no reaction to your opinion outside the box.

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

Joe, you are trying to get the lost time of your absence retty quickly...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Retty?

[gkgyver 1,646]

That's why he won an oscar for it...

Funny thing, academy awards ... people don't think they mean anything, but as soon as someone attacks their favourite composer, they make all the difference in the world.

Hmmm.... someone else see it?

Yes! Yes I do.

It's insulting to Williams even if it's not a serious thread.

What? Is it insulting just because we don't kiss Williams' butt again and lick the floor he walks on? Of course it's unfair to judge a whole score on a 20 seconds MIDI sample, but he makes very valid points about ROTS and WotW.

WotW is a brachial score that combines dozens of Williams' old styles and motifs without any direction. And about ROTS: Battle Of The Heroes is the single worst- spotted cue I've heard/seen in my entire life.

Not even going to read the rest of this thread...  

My thoughts:  

Idiot.

Go to your shrine and light a candle!

[Richard Penna 3,696]

Man....

[JoeinAR 1,949]

lets get one thing straight, there are many here, who would declare John's latest bowel movement a masterpiece, and thats simply not the case.

so many here are so incapable of making a coherent train of thought concerning what is great and what is good and so on.

Not every John williams score is a masterpiece, not everything he does is outstanding quality.

he is like everyone else, he isn't perfect, nor are his scores, especially his latest work,

I'd even go so far to say that Schindler's List isn't among his best works, its not even close, just as the film isn't one of Spielberg's bests, its a 4 out fo 5 star, but not any better than that.

Then there is Saving Private Ryan which is a very mediocre score, last summer when I asked everyone to rank the Spielberg Scores in finished in the bottom 5, as far as fan support, and some of that has to due with its mediocrity. That doesn't mean it doesn't fit the needs of the film, it does point out that as a stand alone piece of music is pales in comparison.

[Sandor 797]

lets get one thing straight, there are many here, who would declare John's latest bowel movement a masterpiece, and thats simply not the case.

That's such a lame, stereotypical viewpoint of "John Williams"-fans. Next one please....

so many here are so incapable of making a coherent train of thought concerning what is great and what is good and so on.

Suggesting you ARE capable no doubt...? The superiority is almost laughable.

Not every John williams score is a masterpiece, not everything he does is outstanding quality.

NOBODY ever said that. Again the cliched-look on Williams fans shines through...

I'd even go so far to say that Schindler's List isn't among his best works, its not even close, just as the film isn't one of Spielberg's bests, its a 4 out fo 5 star, but not any better than that.

The score is definately among his best.

(predicting the future of this thread...)

"No it isn't!"

"Yes it is!"

"No it isn't!"

"Yes it is!"

"No it isn't!"

"Yes it is!"

"No it isn't!"

"Yes it is!"

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Well we did have a big poll last year.

And the results stand.

Pity you were not around to crank up the score for Schindlers List, Roald.

[Incanus 5,716]

Yes you are right. Not all that Williams writes is pure gold. He is human afterall. I do not say I like all that he has ever written or think that people have no right critisize him or his music.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

so many here are so incapable of making a coherent train of thought concerning what is great and what is good and so on.[/qoute]

Suggesting you ARE capable no doubt...? The superiority is almost laughable

sorry Roald, I suggest no superiority, but you are one of those I mention, you have not shown much of an ability to criticize John's scores, indeed you often play with the crowd.

[Sandor 797]

sorry Roald, I suggest no superiority, but you are one of those I mention, you have not shown much of an ability to criticize John's scores, indeed you often play with the crowd.

What ability does one need to criticize a score? Music theory knowledge? Historical knowledge of film music? What exactly?

Or just a big mouth?

I may not be fond of WOTW, but if that's the kind of score Spielberg wanted than IT IS A GOOD SCORE.

I can only say that I LOVE certain scores. If a certain score doesn't appeal DOESN'T mean it's a bad score. What ability do you think I need to criticize scores?

[JoeinAR 1,949]

the ability to say I don't like the score, is all it takes, and so many here won't,

I seriously doubt it was the kind of score Steven wanted, it just happened to be what he got.

[publicist 4,643]

so many here are so incapable of making a coherent train of thought concerning what is great and what is good and so on.  

Not every John williams score is a masterpiece, not everything he does is outstanding quality.

That's not even the point. Most people at fan messageboards (without referring to a specific one) are simply not equipped with the ability to see the difference between:

I LIKE/LOVE something...

IT IS A MASTERPIECE...

it's simply not the same...but arguing is pointless...there#s one born every minute

[JoeinAR 1,949]

pointless is the above post.

seriously if taken as 100%, why even have a message board?

[Incanus 5,716]

BTW it is quite rare that we speak about the use of the score in the movies. How it works in the context it was written for or how well it accentuates emotions and smooth transitions and works all the way through the movie. We tend to speak about the scores on the level of personal preference (it is natural) but how often do we pause to look at the funtionality of a score. Does one particular score fit the movie and enhance the scenes in a good way? That is the main thing a good movie score should do and it is the first and foremost measure of a good film score. The personal level and a score as a musical identity outside its context is another matter and that receives very much attention here on the MB. We discuss mainly about that. How the score makes us feel and how do we like the album.

[Ollie 1,059]

Since people deem it necessary to criticize Williams does it really matter if there are those of us who do enjoy listening to all of Williams' works and find each one unique in it's own way?

While I agree ROTS isn't as great as Star Wars or that The Patriot is not as good as Raiders Of The Lost Ark I still enjoy listening to them.

[Incanus 5,716]

Since people deem it necessary to criticize Williams does it really matter if there are those of us who do enjoy listening to all of Williams' works and find each one unique in it's own way?

While I agree ROTS isn't as great as Star Wars or that The Patriot is not as good as Raiders Of The Lost Ark I still enjoy listening to them.

That's it. To find something good and unique in all Williams' works. That is a thought I have not gotten to put to words but you said it. My sentiments exactly.

beerchug

[MSM 126]

Well the very first Harry potter score showed that Williams is still able do deliver a rich and diverse thematic score if he wants too.

It's just that it looks like he doesn't want to do that type of score any more.

This is true.

No this isn't true, I think. I just think there are not many movies that really inspire JW, and the movies of the past ten years weren't that interesting, except for HP 1 which indeed turned out to have an interesting score.

[SturgisPodmore 0]

I do love how when certain people dislike a score, they view their opinion as THE fact and anyone else who doesn't agree is a yes-man and lacks the ability to criticize the score, when in fact it's just a matter of opinion or taste.

Shame on said people.

~Sturgis

[nightscape94 965]

What I thought was funny was the quote about 'Saving Private Ryan' being a bad score on album. Some of the opposing opinion is that it's bad, and those that like it have some kind of complex that disallows them from seing the truth: It's not that good.

But that's not even the case. You can't just say something is an absolute 'bad' and expect everyone to let that opinion get shoveled down their throats. I happen to like SPR on CD. If you think I'm a fanboy or something who can't string two sentences together because you think I'm blinded, then I feel sorry for you. When did taste become an evil thing?

Tim

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

Retty?

'retty, i feel retty...' from "Retty", song from Eonard Ernstein's Est Side Story.

:oops:

Really, there a a bunch of mean coments in this thread. I just thought joe was acting a ever and some new member upset. But this is madnees, tension can be felt in the air...

Cheer up pals, this is just a message board, and everyone is entitled to their opinions! beerchug

[Sandor 797]

the ability to say I don't like the score, is all it takes, and so many here won't

OK, I finally got you there Joe. Before you claimed I don't have the ability to discern whether a score if great, good or simply bad. Well I do. If you have read my posts from the past carefully you would have noticed that I don't consider any score to be above criticism. I have been extremely critical towards various scores including The Phantom Menace (a score adored by many here). But maybe I (thankfully!) don't live anymore in 1982. I don't EXPECT the level of quality Williams had then. I love what he's doing nowadays very much. I love stuff like Across the Stars, A Window to the Past or Where Dreams Are Born. Man I love that music! Williams didn't write in that idiom back in the late 70's and early 80's and I'm glad he does nowadays.

I don't like the idiom of, for example, Stanley and Iris or Angela's Ashes. Those scores do very, very little to me. Or Minority Report of War of the Worlds. Don't like that soundscape either.

But I will never ever claim based on my disliking of a certain score that a SCORE IS BAD. If Alan Parker wanted that kind of music for Angela's Ashes than who am I to say Williams did a bad job???!!! He didn't! According to the lines notes Parker was very happy with the score. I believe him; Williams certainly did a good job. Do I like the score? No. Is it a bad score? No.

Saying that you don't LIKE a score is vastly different than saying a score IS bad!

[Jeshopk 8]

This is a very funny thread, but you will never top Stafancos' grand ROTS ruse after Battle of the Heroes Ringtone was released.

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

Stafanwho?

[Incanus 5,716]

Stafancos. Sounds kind of Swedish? Who is this mystery Swede among us?

[David Coscina 4]

Joe, a good valid observationof course. and you know, your opinions may be strong but darnit, I admire you for taking a stance either way!

I grew up with the overtly melodic John Williams. The guy who wrote Star Wars, CEOT3K, Jaws, Dracula, Raiders, E.T., etc. etc. Then the mid-'80s hit and I wasn't as enthralled with Williams as much. It sounded like he was growing tired of re-hashing the same Straussian/Korngoldian sound. But then the '90s came and I re-discovered Williams with scores like Hook, Sleepers, Far and Away, Angela's Ashes, JFK, Nixon. These scores still bore the unmistakable stamp of Williams' melodic gift. But they also seemed to be diverging a little, with more of an emphasis on shorter motives or cells, combined with a sensitivity towards texture.

The late '90s and 2000s distilled this ideology and Williams devled further into this style and approach. As Steef mentioned, Williams still could hit the ball out of the park melodically with Harry Potter and The Sorcerer's Stone (I just listened to this score and it is fanstastic- better than I remember it in fact). But with darker projects like Minority Report or War of the Worlds, Williams got his chance to flex his modernist muscles. And I think the contrast between the melodic, tonal Williams and the aggressive, atonal Williams is fantastic. And we've also been treated to the jazzy Williams with projects like The Terminal ("Jazz Autographs" is a better written cue than most entire scores I've heard lately- and much more harmonically complex to boot) and Catch Me if You Can.

As someone who has been writing music myself for a good 20 years, I have matured and changed stylistically in terms of methodology and philosophy. And I'm no John Williams. Every artist wants to continually grow and develop. It's a natural part of life. nothing is static. It was inevitable that Williams would change with the times. I still find his music more contrapuntally dynamic and awe-inspiring than any other composer currently writing in Hollywood.

But we cannot dismiss how his music effects others. Joe feels that Williams' music is slipping. Compared to his seminal '70s/80s works, one could understand this assertion. His music focus has changed. It reallyjust depends on whether those of us who listen are willing to change or accept his genesis as an artist/musician or whether we'd like to enjoy his offerings from the past and feel a little sentimental at the fact that we won't get another Star Wars or Empire Strikes Back, at least to the same degree.

Conclusion: No one is ever "wrong" when it comes to the way they feel about music.

[Incanus 5,716]

How very well put. Kudos! Good constructive and coherent post.

[Jeshopk 8]

not equipped with the ability to see the difference between:  

I LIKE/LOVE something...  

IT IS A MASTERPIECE...  

it's simply not the same...but arguing is pointless...there#s one born every minute

Well, if something is somebody's favorite, then why would they not consider it also to be a masterpiece. "This is a Masterpiece" is also an opinion, just like "I love this" is an opinion. So I don't really see your point at all.

Obviously, there are people (like you) who have favorites, but think, "I know this is no masterpiece but I love it anyway." To you I ask, are there any masterpieces you just do not love, and why then would you consider them a masterpiece?