The positive Prequel Trilogy thread

[DarkLord89 0]

Yes, but the relationship is very different.

My bad. I didn't post this:

On another note, would ROTS have benefitted from having more of Dooku and less of General Grievous?  

I thought Lee was pretty good in AOTC, and was looking forward to an enlarged role for ROTS.  

Lee is precisely the type of actor that can elevate a movie just by his presence on the screen, I wish they used that.

Before I got spoiled at the beginning of 2005, I thought Count Dooku was the bad guy, I didn't image a NEW one like General Grievous.

Matt - who was really shocked when he knew that Count Dooku lasted only the first 15 minutes of the movie

[Orson 1]

On another note, would ROTS have benefitted from having more of Dooku and less of General Grievous?

I thought Lee was pretty good in AOTC, and was looking forward to an enlarged role for ROTS.

Absolutely. In my opinion, Grievous was nothing more than eye candy.

[deleted account 108]

The success of Star Wars in every aspect (financial, critical and popular) tends to prove him wrong.

So if ST:TMP had made more money and been more popular with critics and audiences, the enhancements wouldn't be allowed? It's the audience that decides whether a movie is a rough cut or not? What about LAWRENCE OF ARABIA? The original release of that movie was not the directors first choice - the 1986 release is much closer to his original vision - yet it was a financial success, popular with critics (it won BEST PICTURE that year) and audiences alike. Does that mean the DVD is an abomination of the original film as it was originally released?

What about Fantasia? What about Close Encounters?! Superman: The Movie? Star Trek VI:The Undiscovered Country? Star Trek II:The Wrath of Khan?

And here's another thought - the financial, critical and popular success of the original soundtrack album for Star Wars would seem to indicate that the RCA Victor release is also an abomination and the fact that the original version of the OST is no longer commercially available should be condemned.

Neil, I'm not aiming this particular post at you in specific, but rather expanding on the answer and inviting everyone with an opinion to chime in.

[Sandor 797]

Elvis; I agree 200%

[Jeshopk 8]

Well when Star Wars was released in 1977 it was obvious to everyone that Owen was the brother of Luke's father.

Whoa! Where'd you pull that one out of. Actually no, not at all. Not one person I knew growing up ever thought Owen was Ben's brother. I heard later that it said that in one of the novels, but that was not a film impression.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

That's not what he said.

[Lurker 5]

What about LAWRENCE OF ARABIA?  The original release of that movie was not the directors first choice - the 1986 release is much closer to his original vision - yet it was a financial success, popular with critics (it won BEST PICTURE that year) and audiences alike.  Does that mean the DVD is an abomination of the original film as it was originally released?

The 1989 restoration of that film was not a re-edit. While I believe Lean did slightly shorten the movie in 1989, the main goal of that project was to restore to the film (it was nearly lost and decaying) and I also know that 2 1/2 minutes of the film is still missing, despite everyones best efforts. It was heavily re-edited by the studio for many re-issues. This was done to get it close to the way it was in 1962.

What about Fantasia?

A general release version was created by the studio in 1947.

What about Close Encounters?!

Spielberg was pressed for time to finish this in time. In 1980 when he had the chance to finish it, the studio forced him to include the interior of the mother ship stuff. It was only in 1998 that he was able to complete the movie to his satisfaction without time or a studio to compete with.

Superman: The Movie?

The DVD and 2001 film restoration is Michael Thau's (not director Richard Donner's) expanded assembly of the film. That's why it's referred to as a "Special Edition" and not "Director's Cut".

Star Trek VI:The Undiscovered Country?

It seems Meyer has never been happy with this one, though in the latest re-edit you can actually see McCoy saying, "And what do you think you've been doing?". He was cut off the side of the screen before, at least on home video.

Star Trek II:The Wrath of Khan?

When I heard Nicholas Meyer talk about this film at Paramount, he indicated the 1982 release version was forced on him by the studio.

So in almost every case there was studio interference, a time issue, or an outsider coming in. Star Wars didn't have any of those problems. I've never read about the studio cutting it (Lucas made sure this wouldn't happen after THX-1138 and American Graffiti were taken away from him and re-cut by the studios).

In 1977, Columbia needed Close Encounters released. They were in serious financial trouble, so Spielberg's Close Encounters was rushed out. In the case of Star Trek - The Motion Picture, the film was pre-sold and locked into a December 1979 release. Robert Wise famously delivered a wet print of the film to the movies Washington, D.C. premiere. On the contrary, Fox had initially advertised Star Wars as coming in 1976. So I guess we can rule out the "he ran out of time issue".

And here's another thought - the financial, critical and popular success of the original soundtrack album for Star Wars would seem to indicate that the RCA Victor release is also an abomination and the fact that the original version of the OST is no longer commercially available should be condemned.

What are you getting at here? I love the original album. I even have a re-edit of the RCA album that mirrors the original albums assembly. Should it still be available? Probably, but I don't see how any of this fits into your argument.

Neil

[deleted account 108]

Again, this is not aimed specifically at Neil, and I really hope no one is bugged by this conversation.

With re:LAWRENCE, if memory serves, the version released to theaters was quite a bit shorter than the one "restored" in 1986 (1989?) Many things were not in the print that pretty much everyone saw - the sunglasses shot, for example, comes to mind. Also, an entire reel was printed flopped so that for 20 minutes, the caravan to Aqaba is going the wrong way! Hahaha.

re:SUPERMAN the Movie DVD, Donner was most certainly involved in the "restoration", to what extent I don't know, but he is on record at Superman Cinema website commenting on the mix and the fact that every single moment from the ABC version still didn't make it to the DVD.

The argument that Star Wars was finished but all these films weren't is not accurate. Star Wars was rushed in post-production too. Obviously, FOX didn't take the film from him and reedit it, but he was dropping in shots from ILM that "worked" instead of shots that were what he actually wanted. Yes, there were 3 sound mixes, but the 6-track stereo one is considered by everyone to be basically a rough mix bashed out in ahurry to get the print in to the Chinese Theater in May. Of course, the sound really isn't the issue here, is it?

I brought up the SW OST because it seems we all love it when something is revisited under certain circumstances, but not in others. I love the OST too, but I don't think it was the best presentation of the music . But using the argument of financial, critical and popular success, one could say that the OST WAS the definitive version of the music and the RCA Victor revisitation is "too much tampering". Obviously, I don't think anyone actually feels this way, I was using this example to illustrate a point by taking it to an extreme.

What is my point? My point is this: It seems in pretty much every case, an artist is not only allowed, but APPLAUDED for revisiting earlier work to restore, reedit, remix or reimagine sequences, in many cases making the original version unavailable. The only person who seems to have this right taken away from him is George Lucas. I find that a shame.

PS - Ironically, I do really wish Lucas would release a DVD of Star Wars exactly as it was in 1977 (no Ep 4 even) just for posterity.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

i liked the PT, though I dont think they are quite as good as the OT, except for ROTS which imho was better than ROTJ

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

So in almost every case there was studio interference, a time issue, or an outsider coming in.  Star Wars didn't have any of those problems.  I've never read about the studio cutting it (Lucas made sure this wouldn't happen after THX-1138 and American Graffiti were taken away from him and re-cut by the studios).

Neil

If i recall correctly, in Behind the Magic CDs, the explanation of the deletedness of the early luke scenes is that fox believed that luke was introduced too early.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

I thought Lee was pretty good in AOTC, and was looking forward to an enlarged role for ROTS.  

Enlarged, circumcission... Stefan, are you sure you dont have some kind of freudian complex?

[Lurker 5]

If i recall correctly, in Behind the Magic CDs, the explanation of the deletedness of the early luke scenes is that fox believed that luke was introduced too early.

The studio wanted the character introduced earlier. Lucas shot that stuff, and some say with the intention of never using any of it. Ultimately, none of it was used, so thanks for pointing out that there wasn't much studio interference with the production of Star Wars.

Neil

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

i recalled incorrectly it seems (sh** ) 8O

He still HAD to shoot it, so they will shut up.

[Sandor 797]

The studio wanted the character introduced earlier. Lucas shot that stuff, and some say with the intention of never using any of it. Ultimately, none of it was used, so thanks for pointing out that there wasn't much studio interference with the production of Star Wars.

And you know this how? All those introduction scenes are in the screenplay. So Lucas wasted valuable production time on scenes he never intended to use in the first place? Doesn't look logical from any viewpoint. Do you have some evidence to back this up?

[Pieter Boelen 740]

I really like the prequels myself. The tracking/butchering of music is truly unfortunate, but otherwise the movies are quite good. As far as I'm concerned. Sure, they could've been better, but I think they're quite fine already. I do hope they'll fix some little things in future releases though. :roll:

[Sandor 797]

Actually The Prequels are gathering a fan circle that regards the Prequels as a better TRILOGY than the Original films. Not better as individual films, but as a thought out film cycle much more coherent.

Agree?

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Well, the prequels have better consistency between them than the OT, which starts out with a nearly wrapped up story, has a great middle part, but then sizzles with a lame finale and a bunch of cop-outs.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

The studio wanted the character introduced earlier. Lucas shot that stuff, and some say with the intention of never using any of it. Ultimately, none of it was used, so thanks for pointing out that there wasn't much studio interference with the production of Star Wars.

And you know this how? All those introduction scenes are in the screenplay. So Lucas wasted valuable production time on scenes he never intended to use in the first place? Doesn't like logical from any viewpoint. Do you have some evidence to back this up?

I think it says it on Behind the magic.

Plus they may have asked him when they 1st read the rough drafts, so the shooting screenplay contains the scenes.

[Sandor 797]

I think it says it on Behind the magic.

So we believe the sh*t on this ancient CD-Rom, but we don't want to believe Lucas when he says himself that the 1977 version of Star Wars was NOT the film he set out to make?

[Lurker 5]

If Luke and I are in agreement on something, then it must be the truth.

Neil

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

I have learnt not to trust GL of late

[Trent B 337]

Lucas has said many times through out the years that he was never satisified with the thearatical versions of the OT movies. That's why he went back in the 90's and made the Special Editions to update them how he originally wanted them to be. Then made even more changes to how he originally wanted them for the 04' box set when more computer technology became available.

I love (being sarcastic on the love part) how you people chastisize, critize and bitch at Lucas because he updated HIS OWN movies to how he originally wanted them to be. If you don't like it tough crap then and DO NOT watch the movies. Quit ruining it for everyone else who loves them and doesn't care if he updates the movies.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

But the Special Editions were announced as the Definitive Versions of Lucas's vision. He now contradicts that by tinkering with the films again.

[Sandor 797]

I THINK it was Behind the Magic...

They MAY HAVE asked him....

...

The truth is out there, but it ain't here!

[Trent B 337]

But the Special Editions were announced as the Definitive Versions of Lucas's vision. He now contradicts that by tinkering with the films again.

This time this really calls for it, besides you guys WHO CARES!? They are HIS OWN movies he has the right to do with them as he pleases. If you do NOT like the changes DO NOT keep buying the films or watching them, plain and simple.

[Sandor 797]

I love the alterations by the way! The Emperor in ESB, the "tractor beam" writing in the Death Star, the dewbacks that I saw on photo's, but hardly in the film.... Those things bugged me EVEN as a kid. Really.

To see them changed for the better is a dream come true for me.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

But the Special Editions were announced as the Definitive Versions of Lucas's vision. He now contradicts that by tinkering with the films again.

This time this really calls for it, besides you guys WHO CARES!? They are HIS OWN movies he has the right to do with them as he pleases. If you do NOT like the changes DO NOT keep buying the films or watching them, plain and simple.

Which is why I still haven't purchased the 2004 DVD box.

[Trent B 337]

Those of you who are expecting the thearatical editions of the OT to be restored and released on DVD, DO NOT count on it at least in this life time. Lucas has also said over the years those to him NO LONGER exist because he was UNHAPPY with the way how they turned out. He has repeated many times over the years in interviews that he will NOT be spending all that money to re-store something he is not satisified with. I for one could careless if they are released or not. I perfer the updated versions.

I am sure Lucas will be sticking to his word about not releasing the thearatical editions of the OT. At least while he's still alive.

[Lurker 5]

I love (being sarcastic on the love part) how you people chastisize, critize and bitch at Lucas because he updated HIS OWN movies to how he originally wanted them to be.  If you don't like it tough crap then and DO NOT watch the movies.  Quit ruining it for everyone else who loves them and doesn't care if he updates the movies.

Could you please stop being so negative in this thread? Roald would appreciate it if we are all positive here.

Neil

[Trent B 337]

:roll: I'm not the only one who's been negative, I'm not really being negative I'm stating facts.

[Sandor 797]

Could you please stop being so negative in this thread? Roald would appreciate it if we are all positive here.

Yeah, so far this thread is kind of being dominated by "Grumpy Old Men" who still live in the early 80's.

This thread is mainly for Prequel Friends remember?

[A24 4,344]

:roll:  I'm not the only one who's been negative, I'm not really being negative I'm stating facts.

You want facts? Han Solo shot first!

[Sandor 797]

You want facts? Han Solo shot first!

Yeah right! On my DVD GREEDO shoots first!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

On my DVD, which I transferred from the 1993 Laserdisc Trilogy box Greedo does not shoot at all.

This Box set is called The Star Wars Trilogy: THE DEFINITIVE EDITION btw.

I definatly agree that the prequels are a more consistand set of films, but that's to be expected with a single director, DP, writer and the knowledge that all 3 films are gonna be made no matter what.

and the Prequels use the same recording of the Main Title, that helps a lot too.

[Trent B 337]

:roll:  I'm not the only one who's been negative, I'm not really being negative I'm stating facts.

You want facts? Han Solo shot first!

:roll:

[Sandor 797]

This Box set is called The Star Wars Trilogy: THE DEFINITIVE EDITION btw.

Is that the one with the awful matte lines surrounding the Rancor? How can you still watch that?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yeah the matte lines are pretty noticable.

The design of the Rancor itself is very good though, much more frightening then those cartoony Arena creatues in AOTC.

[A24 4,344]

Oh my god, the Rancor!!!!!

[bondo 33]

Nothing is scarier than matte lines.......... nothing

[Henry B 50]

I think it says it on Behind the magic.

So we believe the sh*t on this ancient CD-Rom, but we don't want to believe Lucas when he says himself that the 1977 version of Star Wars was NOT the film he set out to make?

Absolutely. Lucas's dishonesty is directly proportional to the number of years since the release of Star Wars. It's like y = 1.84(2)^(x - 1977), where x = the year of Lucas's outlandish claim about Star Wars and y = the degree of its falsehood (1 or greater = very untrue). You guys learned this in Algebra II.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

and the Prequels use the same recording of the Main Title, that helps a lot too.

which i didnt like...lol

[MeBeJedi 0]

"I love the fact that Owen turns out not te be Anakin's brother, and indeed hardly knows him."

BERU: He's got too much of his father in him.

OWEN: That's what I'm afraid of.

Care to explain, then, what Owen was afraid of?

Of course, this was never a problem until the PT came along.

"But even with certain changes made to the OT, there still excist a few very obvious continuity errors between what is shown in the prequels and what we can gather from the OT."

See above.

"I just ignore these things and enjoy the films."

Which is apparently what Lucas did as well when he wrote the PT.

"5 - It sure took a long time to build the first Death Star, didn't it?! (My answer - have you ever seen the government build something that worked quickly?) "

He was doing it in secret. He hadn't even disbanded the Senate until his ultimate grab for power was ready to use. Diverting funds would be tricky. As for the DSII, he had all the money and manpower he needed under his direct control.

"7 - So if the Jedi are all dead and the few (2?) survivors are hiding on remote planets, why does Obi-Wan Kenobi walk around in his Jedi Robes all the time? Good way to keep a low profile, old man. (My answer - don't have a good one...)"

Not to mention letting Luke keep the family name, on a planet where an earlier Skywalker was quite famous.

"Novels have never been a source for canon info. We're talking about the movies."

Care to explain how this line from the novel contradicts what is seen onscreen in any way, shape or form?

BTW, LFL considers the novels as canon second only to the films and screenplays. Anything in the novels not contradicted by the films is offciially considered canon, your own opinion notwithstanding.

"But the answers to your questions have been all over the Internet for years..."

So only new answers are legitimate? How many new positive points have you come up with recently about the PT?

"That's exactly how George Lucas felt about the 1977 version of Star Wars."

And apparently how he felt about the so-called 1997 "Special Editions". Too bad he misnamed those as well. I guess "Special Rough Cuts" wouldn't have sold so well?

[Sandor 797]

"I love the fact that Owen turns out not te be Anakin's brother, and indeed hardly knows him."  

Quote:  

BERU: He's got too much of his father in him.  

OWEN: That's what I'm afraid of.  

Care to explain, then, what Owen was afraid of?

The rage that drove Anakin to kill all those Tuskens? The stories about Anakin killing throughout the galaxy (Jedi Temple, Mustafar, etc.)? There are many plausible explanations for that.

Not to mention letting Luke keep the family name, on a planet where an earlier Skywalker was quite famous.

Well, how do we know that "Skywalker" is not the "Johnson" or something of the Star Wars universe?

"But the answers to your questions have been all over the Internet for years..."  

So only new answers are legitimate? How many new positive points have you come up with recently about the PT?

Only new answers are legitimate? What do you mean? I've come up with many positive points. I don't think you understood my comment AT ALL.

"That's exactly how George Lucas felt about the 1977 version of Star Wars."  

And apparently how he felt about the so-called 1997 "Special Editions". Too bad he misnamed those as well. I guess "Special Rough Cuts" wouldn't have sold so well?

No, YOU misname them now. Why does "Special Edition" all of a sudden equal "Definitive Edition"?

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

"That's exactly how George Lucas felt about the 1977 version of Star Wars."  

And apparently how he felt about the so-called 1997 "Special Editions". Too bad he misnamed those as well. I guess "Special Rough Cuts" wouldn't have sold so well?

No, YOU misname them now. Why does "Special Edition" all of a sudden equal "Definitive Edition"?

Because that's how they were announced by Lucasfilm back in 1997.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

"I love the fact that Owen turns out not te be Anakin's brother, and indeed hardly knows him."  

Quote:  

BERU: He's got too much of his father in him.  

OWEN: That's what I'm afraid of.  

Care to explain, then, what Owen was afraid of?

The rage that drove Anakin to kill all those Tuskens? The stories about Anakin killing throughout the galaxy (Jedi Temple, Mustafar, etc.)? There are many plausible explanations for that.

I just came with the idea that since Owen lived with Shmi, the latter would have told many stories about young anakin, (love for piloting, fixxing machines,...), and luke has similar interests.

That's what beru meant (i dont think she saw as a good thing to be a mass murderer) and then owen is turning it upside down, being negative and he is afraid of what he could become.

[Sandor 797]

I just came with the idea that since Owen lived with Shmi, the latter would have told many stories about young anakin, (love for piloting, fixxing machines,...), and luke has similar interests.  

That's what beru meant (i dont think she saw as a good thing to be a mass murderer) and then owen is turning it upside down, being negative and he is afraid of what he could become.

Well; that's also good, if not better, reasoning.

The point is that there numberous ways to reason on this even for NON-Star Wars fans.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

yup

I fogot to mention anakin and luke both looked to the starts wanting to explore the galaxy and both were stuck on the damn planet.

[Sandor 797]

I fogot to mention anakin and luke both looked to the starts wanting to explore the galaxy and both were stuck on the damn planet.

And another one! Hooray for Luke! Making us Prequel Friends very proud!

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

i aim to please...

[Incanus 5,715]

I want say a few words a bout the music of AOTC which is some what underappreciated even here on our beloved MB.

For me the score sounded at first a little strange and unSW. I wondered what was the reason but Lucas himself stated in his liner notes that he wanted a new sound for a different kind of SW movie. I listened and listened to the soundtrack album and began to like it a lot. It had a new sound that pleased my ears even if it was not the old SW sound that TPM still atleast in part represented and what I was used to. After seeing the film I was once again very sorry Williams' music was edited to bits but found that the movie was full of unreleased music that sounded wonderful (very usual occurrence with any JW score ). In AOTC Williams took a more subtle route by his own choice or by Lucas' wish. He wrote music using very motivic approach instead of writing fully developed themes. Many see this as a weakness but to me it seemed the right approach. The movie itself was much about the mystery and intrigue so Williams' Herrmannesques motifs add much to the athmosphere of the plot(s) and work in a much more subtle fashion than in previous SW movies. One thing that bothers me was that these small motifs were doomed to be left out of the Episode III because of their very nature representing things that did not transition from one film to the next. I like Williams' motifs for the Galactic Conflict, Kamino, Zam, and Mystery/Dark Secrets and Anakin's hatred (the only motif from AOTC to appear again in the Ep. III besides ActS), and Shmi/ Missing Mother motif. The Secondary love theme/Courting theme brought much needed lightness to the dark proceedings and Across the Stars was a perfect love theme to represent the troubled lovers. The score is a winner in my book.

That was also a difference. The music was more subtle than ever before even though it had straightforward action sequences and setpieces. Williams scored much of the movie almost like from the psychological point of view of the characters and that made it a very interesting score. And of course the lightness was very much gone from the music that was now full of sense of tragedy and foreboding. That was one thing that must have been off putting for some fans of SW music. Never before had the music been so dark. I once again loved this aspect of the music. Most notable was Williams style of writing action music (Williams seems to have started using this more ostinato based action writing around Lost World) and even the orchestrations seemed different than in TPM. But after a while I kind of got used to the new style and sound of SW Williams had created for AOTC.

Even though AOTC is a different compared to the other Prequels it is not a weak score by any standards. The more I listen to it the more I love it. Now only we could get complete scores for the Prequels.