Lost

[Red 75]

I felt bad for Ben in this episode. We got some huge insight into he really is (Jacob rejecting him, making crap up, etc.) and it's a bit pathetic. Even when he killed Jacob, which was fairly despicable, I couldn't help but just feel sorry for him.

I don't think a single episode has (apparently) killed off so many people. Sayid, Juliet, Jacob, Locke(?), the list goes on.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I don't think we've EVER seen Jacob in any form until tonight. He's just a guy that doesn't age and can revive dead people by touch. So he's Jesus.

[Ollie 1,059]

I don't think a single episode has (apparently) killed off so many people. Sayid, Juliet, Jacob, Locke(?), the list goes on.

You must have missed the premiere when the plane crashed and the Dharma purge episode.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

We don't know Sayid's fate, or really anyone's fate. For all we know they are landing in LAX.

"This doesn't look like LAX"

[Ollie 1,059]

And how about Rose and Bernard????

They've been surviving the whole time, built a cabin and "retired".

[Red 75]

I don't think a single episode has (apparently) killed off so many people. Sayid, Juliet, Jacob, Locke(?), the list goes on.

You must have missed the premiere when the plane crashed and the Dharma purge episode.

You have me there, sir. Let me rephrase that; the episode to have the most important characters die, as in those who are not nameless extras.

We got an answer as to how Hurley went on Ajira flight 316, and it wasn't because of Charlie. Still don't know who's guitar that is, though.

[King Mark 3,631]

Maybe season 5 will start with the plane landing in LA and nobody know each other!

[Koray Savas 2,251]

You mean Season 6?

As for Rose and Bernard, Mr. O, they are too unimportant compared to the rest of this episode

[Ollie 1,059]

You have me there, sir. Let me rephrase that; the episode to have the most important characters die, as in those who are not nameless extras.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I really want to rewatch this episode, like right now. I can't remember the full conversation between Jacob and the other dude at the beginning. Did Jacob cause the Black Rock to crash there?

[Red 75]

I was expecting to see Claire at some point, but it didn't happen. Hopefully next season.

Also I don't think Christian is Jacob's nemesis (whoever that is). Christian's corpse was never found after the crash while Locke's is still around just as it was before.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Oceanic 815 broke apart mid air. It's pretty easy to believe his body fell out of the coffin. Ajira 316 had a roughly smooth landing. No cargo was lost.

[King Mark 3,631]

Did Jacob cause the Black Rock to crash there?

That is what I understood .It seems Jacob causes a group of people to get marooned on the island ,stuff happens and he starts over. Maybe the people on the Black Rock were the 17th century equivalent of the Oceanic flight 815 group

[Red 75]

Oceanic 815 broke apart mid air. It's pretty easy to believe his body fell out of the coffin. Ajira 316 had a roughly smooth landing. No cargo was lost.

Possible, but I doubt it.

And yes Jacob made the Black Rock crash on the island, which I'm guessing is how Richard, Mikhael (Russian one-eyed guy), and other Others first came to the island.

[Ollie 1,059]

I don't know if he causes it so much as he may recruit.

I think he meant that people keep coming to the island to try and use it and he keeps having to drive them off.

[King Mark 3,631]

Maybe it's a recruiting method for new "others" . Only the most worthy of a group become Others in the end

[Koray Savas 2,251]

It seemed like Jacob somehow brought them there to prove that people can find the island, or something. It's like the other guy didn't like that and wanted to kill him.

It's also sad to think Locke was never anyone special and he was just a pawn in a greater game of chess. Jacob on one end, the other man against him. They even have their own rules.

Those rules also remind me of the rules between Ben and Widmore. Perhaps killing each other is forbidden on the island?

[King Mark 3,631]

The Ben vs Windmore thing last season made it seem they were more important than they really are. Ben doesn't seem to know what is really going on

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Ben was just some guy who wanted to feel special, important, and needed. I did feel kind of bad for him, especially after Jacob said "What about you?" But it's really fucking confusing me because I don't know who is good and who is bad.

This is my favorite episode of LOST, and it's unique as a finale because it didn't really bring up a load of new questions nor answer some.

[King Mark 3,631]

Alpert also seems a bit clueless

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Richard seems like just some guy who is ageless because Jacob wishes it so with his Jesus powers.

[Jay 37,364]

The "other guy" with Jacob in the opening scene is listed as "Man #2" in the press release (Mark Pellegrino (Jacob) was simply listed as Man #1 in the press release), so I guess that's what we can refer to him as for the time being

Wow, what an episode! The producers were right, this does have a very season 1 finale feel to it - I want to know what happens immediately after both where the 1977 and 2007 scenes ended off!

I was actually fairly surprised by how many questions from this season went un-answered:

-Why did Juliet time-jump with the rest of the Locke/Sawyer/Miles/Faraday/Charlotte/Rose/Bernard/etc crowd, but none of the other Others did?

-Why did Jack, Kate, Hurley, and Sayid flash to 1974 but not Sun, Lapidus, or anyone else on the Ajira flight?

-Who was shooting at Locke/Kate/Juliet/etc in the ocean when they were in the boats?

I also really thought we'd see Claire in some way in the finale... as well as Desmond and Penny somehow.

Did anybody else think it was weird that Juliet's flashback didn't involve Jacob in any way?

So Locke is truly dead after all, and the Locke that's been walking around on the island the whole season is really Man#2..... fascinating. He clearly retained all of Locke's memories as well as his own. I wonder what the loophole is that allows him to instruct someone to be able to kill Jacob if he's in another body?

Oh, and I really thought that the whole 1970's storyline would be over by the end of the season too. I think they were right, and the bomb going off IS The Incident...

[King Mark 3,631]

There was cool music in the opening Jacob beach scene ,and also his death when he gets tossed in the fire.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

-Why did Jack, Kate, Hurley, and Sayid flash to 1974 but not Sun, Lapidus, or anyone else on the Ajira flight?

This was answered in the recap episode. They didn't recreate the conditions well enough.

[Jay 37,364]

I didn't watch the recap episode..... they really relayed new information like that in a clip show? What else was revealed?

[King Mark 3,631]

yes,that' s why I watch that recap

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I didn't watch the recap episode..... they really relayed new information like that in a clip show? What else was revealed?

When it's a recap before a season finale, you watch it. Simple as that. Michael Emerson narrated and Lindelof and Cuse talked a bit between clips. It was really good.

I don't remember if any other things were answered, that was the big one that stood out which I can recall.

My friend said that Jorge Garcia answered why there were polar bears on the island when he was on Jimmy Fallon. They're main purpose was to turn the donkey wheel because they could withstand the cold.

[Jay 37,364]

I was out seeing Star Trek again, didn't have time to watch the recap and the finale when i got back

[King Mark 3,631]

As a Lost fan ,I would have picked another day to go to the cinema.

The Lost finale is "sacred" TV night for me

[Jay 37,364]

Yes, how stupid of me for not telling my friends to pick a different day because I have a tv show I want to watch

[King Mark 3,631]

I would have...in fact I was prepared to .

[Koray Savas 2,251]

LOST is like my religion. I have never missed an episode.

[Jay 37,364]

And I didn't miss it either

Some tidbits from lostpedia:

- Richard Alpert responded to the question of "What lies in the shadow of the statue?" with "Ille qui nos omnes servabit" - "He who will protect/save us all."

- This was the first finale in which Walt didn't appear

and a good question from AICN:

If the Island and Jacob haven't been talking to Ben, how did he know how to find and work the Frozen Donkey Wheel?

Also found this on AIC:

Anyone want to know about that Greek that Jacob was weaving in the beginning?

The words are ancient Greek--Homeric Greek, in fact. They say:

θεοὶ τόσα δοῖεν ὅσα φρεσὶ σῇσι μενοινᾷς. (Hope this Greek display works).

It's from the Odyssey, Book 6, line 180. It means "May the gods give you everything that you desire in your heart." They are the words Odysseus says to the princess Nausicaa when he washes up on her island while he's trying to get home to Penelope--Penelope who is, by the way, weaving and unweaving a tapestry back at home even as he's doing this.

[LongTallJodie 59]

Seems to me that Jacob is living history in a loop, along with Man #2. They've both been through the Island's history countless times, only to have it start again. Jacob travels off the island to visit significant people at turning points in their lives and nudges them onto the path that will eventually lead to the island. Man #2 wants out of the loop, but can't find a way to do it, until now.

At least, that's how I see it working for the moment.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure the guitar is Charlie's. It could possibly be the greatest clue to the fate of the 816ers: I suspect that Jacob brought it with him from the Island so that Hurley could eventually give it BACK to Charlie, though in what manner Charlie will return remains a mystery. However, Jacob also noted that speaking to the dead was a gift, and that Hurley was definitely NOT crazy. Which is to say, Hurley actually IS talking to dead people. Maybe Ghost Charlie will get to come back and rock out? Who knows. All I really know is that the writers went out of their way to put Charlie in our brain (the DS ring, "It's not my guitar"). That has to be significant somehow.

It also seems that Man #2 has been acting Jacob's name since the 816ers arrived. Ilana notes that Jacob hasn't been to the cabin in quite sometime - someone ELSE was using it. That same someone else had Christian walking around, snagged Claire, and did a great John Locke impression.

Oh, and before I forget - the Lists! Ben mentions that Richard brought him all the lists from Jacob. That's at least one little mystery solved. It's easy to forget that, in the buttload of questions we just got, there were also a TON of answers.

And even though we just got the S4 OST, I MUST HAVE THE S5 FINALE'S SOUNDTRACK NOW. If there's a God, he'll have Varese pull a S3 and give the finale its own disc. 'Cause DUDE, this show had the best score of the season, bar none.

[Jay 37,364]

Just saw this in an AICN comment:

"So the Black Rock was an earlier version of 815? Jacob got all that crew on the boat, got it to land on the island, and attempted to prove that free will does not always lead to total destruction. That experiment with Black Rock failed, so he is trying again with 815"

Interesting. And Trout, I didn't get that there are any timeloops involved at all.... except for the compass of course

------

Here's a fascinating theory from DarkUFO as to who man #2 is:

"That opening scene made the last few seasons a whole lot clearer. Two opposing sides: Jacob and the Monster. The Monster has been trying to kill Jacob for centuries. He finally was able to. This also confirms that Christian was definitely NOT speaking for Jacob. The monster was able (because of the gap in the ash) to invade Jacob's cabin in the form of Christian."

"Remember what the guy in black told Jacob--that he didn't want new people coming to the island because they were impure and always caused problems. Compare that to the way Smokey acts--guarding the island and getting rid of impure people. "

"That guy in the BLACK shirt at the beginning was the Smoke Monster. That`s why Smokey in Alex`s form told Ben to do whatever Locke said because in Locke`s form he was going to tell Ben to kill Jacob because he couldn`t. It`s pretty clear now, the "war" that Widmore was talking about wasn`t between him and Ben, it was between Jacob and the Smoke Monster hence the ash that was broken that allowed the Smoke Monster to infiltrate the cabin and act as Jacob by way of Christian."

[Datameister 2,043]

Wow. What an episode. I actually didn't find it quite as satisfying as I'd hoped, but it was very good, and this season was so amazing that I'm not complaining. I'll probably post more thoughts when I've had more time to digest it. But FWIW, I'm almost hoping I'm wrong about time travel.

And you know, I could totally buy the Smokey vs. Jacob theory. Hadn't thought of it that way, but it could make sense. It's all very confusing.

EDIT: Someone on MiceChat suggested it would be cool if Smokey/Non-Jacob/Locke/Man #2 were named Esau.

[Bryant Burnette 654]

The guy who played Man #2, for those of you who don't already know, is Titus Welliver -- he played Adams on Deadwood, and is a terrific actor.

I can only assume we haven't seen the last of him on this show.

[Datameister 2,043]

I think it's interesting how Widmore and Ben can't kill each other...and apparently, neither could Jacob and Man #2. Not directly, that is.

It's dawning on me how sad it is that we're not really going to see the real John Locke anymore, too. I mean, there's always flashbacks and stuff...but who knows what's gonna be going on next season.

Something puzzling - remember Richard's comment about watching the Losties die?

[Jay 37,364]

He could have been referring to The Purge, not The Incident

[Incanus 5,715]

Now that was a finale! Left me breathless. So much to mull over. Certainly sent me rethinking the whole show and the bigger game played behind the scenes. White Jacob and his black counterpart. Yin and yang. The statue under which Jacob lives does not actually seem to be Anubis but Set who was the traditional adversary of the good Egyptian Pantheon forming a kind of polar opposite to Ra and Horus. Most Egyptian gods can be seen in imagery carrying ankhs in their hands as a sign of eternal life so Set carrying them is not a surprise. I hope this Egyptian side of things will get clarification next season.

And of course I was totally convinced that the Locke was the real deal and then came the twist. I loved it. Ben was played by a much bigger player and he did not seem to notice or care. His desire to be special drove him to despair when Jacob did not acknowledge him to be that. I was reminded of the way he killed Keamy when he stabbed Jacob over and over. And the way he was carefully pushed to this direction to be used as a tool by this dark half obviously unable to touch Jacob himself. The final kitchen variety of psychology "Locke" used on Ben should have sent him thinking but he was too driven by guilt and forced obedience to mull it over.

The finale was also extremely emotional. I was amazed how deeply invested I am personally to these characters after 5 seasons and how their fate affected me. This is one of the ingenious aspects of this show. How you over time come to know these people and how emotionally attached you become to them. Very few shows have ever achieved it at this level for me. I was on the edge of my seat most of the time.

And now we have 8 months to wait for the final season

[Jay 37,364]

I enjoyed all the call-backs to the first season.... Jack and Kate talking about her sewing him up, the whole "count to 5" thing, the Live Together, Die Alone motif, the references to Charlie and Claire, etc

When Jacob said "They're coming", do you think he was referring to the Ilana/Bram crew, or could he have been referring to our 1977 strandies? If you think about it, the characters themselves could be at the same "time" in terms of, both groups could be the same age - the Jack/Hurley/Kate/etc gang lived 3 years off island, the Sawyer/Miles/etc crew lived 3 years on-island... they could be lined up... therefore Jacob could "know" that absolute time-wise, they were about to set off the bomb, which could be what hurdles them back to the right time... who knows.

[Ollie 1,059]

Deja Vu again? Ahhh you fixed it.

[LongTallJodie 59]

Interesting. And Trout, I didn't get that there are any timeloops involved at all...

Two things give me the impression that Jacob and his pal have lived history multiple times: 1) Jacob knows in advance who will be on 815 and visits them at significant moments in their lives. 2) He speaks in completely unaccented, modern American English... in the 18th century.

[Ollie 1,059]

I know some of this has probabaly been mentioned already.

The signs were there that Smokey was Locke #2. The night Ben called him he didn't appear right away, they go looking for him, Locke tells Ben where to go, Ben falls, Locke disappears to find a rope, Ben has his vision, his daughter tells him to obey Locke, smokey leaves and Locke appears.

I had my suspicions that wasn't Locke but I wasn't sure if they would go the route of having a double, but I didn't make the monster connection until the beginning of the season finale, then it all made sense.

There's not enough time left in the series for the bomb to have worked, restarting everything. My guess is that it re-triggered the time travel mechanism.

[Jay 37,364]

Yes I am liking the Smoke Monster = Man #2 theory more and more. It fits rather well.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

He could have been referring to The Purge, not The Incident

Definitely not. I'm assuming that they didn't die from The Incident, because Richard said he saw them die, and he clearly was not there.

The finale was also extremely emotional. I was amazed how deeply invested I am personally to these characters after 5 seasons and how their fate affected me. This is one of the ingenious aspects of this show. How you over time come to know these people and how emotionally attached you become to them. Very few shows have ever achieved it at this level for me. I was on the edge of my seat most of the time.

Agreed. I was sad when Sayid was basically on the verge of death and when Juliet fell.

Two things give me the impression that Jacob and his pal have lived history multiple times: 1) Jacob knows in advance who will be on 815 and visits them at significant moments in their lives.

Perhaps he just knows the future. He reminded me of Eloise Hawking, making sure they fulfilled their destinies.

[Datameister 2,043]

I want to echo your statements about really having strong emotional investments in the characters, Incanus. I found myself really genuinely worried about them at numerous points in the finale. I knew any one of them could potentially be hurt or killed, and I really didn't want that to happen. I will say, however, that I was massively annoyed at the Losties just going in, guns blazing, slaughtering the DHARMA folks. It seemed out of character, particularly for Jack, who's a doctor that started the show out by saving a bunch of strangers at great personal risk.

[Ollie 1,059]

Yeah Jack has become quite handy with weapons hasn't he?

I know this isn't supposed to be funny but as Jacob made his way thru the episode I had to laugh as he was sitting there reading because I recognized it as the building Locke fell from. And sure enough you hear the glass breaking and see the body hit the ground behind him while he calmly reads.

[Datameister 2,043]

I was ashamed that I didn't recognize the building! =/ Naturally, once Locke fell, I knew exactly what we were looking at, but I didn't get it till then.

The funniest part of the episode for me was, "I'm a Pisces." I snorted very loudly at that - most unlike me when watching a show. I usually keep pretty quiet if I'm watching alone, particularly if I'm using headphones and someone else is in the room.

[Incanus 5,715]

I was ashamed that I didn't recognize the building! =/ Naturally, once Locke fell, I knew exactly what we were looking at, but I didn't get it till then.

The funniest part of the episode for me was, "I'm a Pisces." I snorted very loudly at that - most unlike me when watching a show. I usually keep pretty quiet if I'm watching alone, particularly if I'm using headphones and someone else is in the room.

Yes that Ben moment made me bark a laugh out loud! It is both sad and funny to see Ben sulking. And by the end of the episode that had turned into pity, pity for him and how bad he wanted to be special, how he was always led to believe so and how in the end he thought that he was brushed aside so lightly and it drove him to kill Jacob. Terribly clever of Locke #2 to manipulate the manipulator which has a great sense of irony.