Lost

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Actually, appendicitis scar = appendicitis scar. Jack got his appendix out in the sideways universe. Besides, even if that were the case, why would a little tiny flesh wound keep bleeding for weeks while a deep gash in his side just ended up being an old scar?

Well if you started bleeding profusely from your abdomen, that's something major that you're gonna get checked out. A little blood splotch on your neck every now and then is a curious hint. It's like that for the sake of not being so overdramatic or revealing. Although, I think we're starting to reach into a silly argumentative debate here. We should just agree to disagree. To me, the sideways made sense.

Now if I could only get a poster of that shot of them in the church, signed by all the cast members... *drools and slobbers*

In other news...I really like the tracks that are showing up in your last.fm sig right now, Koray.

All your talk about it made me want to revisit it haha

[King Mark 3,631]

Well...I already don't care that much anymore. I watched every episode on TV but I doubt I'll ever re-watch them again. It was fun while it lasted.

[Datameister 2,044]

Well if you started bleeding profusely from your abdomen, that's something major that you're gonna get checked out. A little blood splotch on your neck every now and then is a curious hint. It's like that for the sake of not being so overdramatic or revealing.

Which is exactly my point - the resolution to the whole sideways thing was constructed without much regard for what would make the most sense. Heck...most of the characters died just when they'd finally been redeemed. Sayid stopped being a Smokey-zombie and saved his friends...Boone let go of his attachment to his sister...Jack became a man of faith and saved the Island...Charlie did what was necessary to selflessly save Claire and Aaron...etc. One of the ongoing motifs in the show has been characters dying once they'd been redeemed. So why would those characters need to redeem themselves again in this weird afterlife? Since they've already realized in life that they needed each other, why would they need to discover it all over again afterward?

The answer is...they wanted a twist at the end. As far as I can tell, that's about it. They set up one self-consistent story and then they explained what it "really" meant at the last minute just to throw us, and to provide emotional satisfaction that easily could have been provided other ways.

Although, I think we're starting to reach into a silly argumentative debate here. We should just agree to disagree. To me, the sideways made sense.

Haha, fair enough - and as I said, it's not like I look down on you or anything for thinking differently. I'm jealous, if anything!

[Bryant Burnette 654]

The question definitely existed: How do the sideways connect to the on-island events? They answered it, and they put a big fat clue right in the premiere, and throughout the season...

You say there's no wow moment. I go "That's why Jack's neck was bleeding the whole time!" Not literally, but you get my point.

I have no beef with that portion of Jack's story. If, however, you can explain to me why he has a nonexistent child with Juliet, then I'll be impressed.

Other nonsensical things about the sideways world:

Why, up until she sees the light (as it were) is Kate still behaving as though she were a convict? If she had died on the island with Jack, I'd get it, but she presumably goes on to live a full and clean life. Possibly with Sawyer, probably as Aaron's mother or "aunt," and almost certainly as Claire's good friend. Furthermore, there's really no reason to suspect that she doesn't at some point return to the island, seeing as how it's under new and extremely friendly management. Now granted, that's me continuing the story, but it's all very logical based on where the main plotline leaves off, and with that in mind, I'm not sure I buy that when Kate finally gets around to dying, she's still working out the issues we see her working out in the sideways world. Sorry, it just doesn't ring true.

Allow me to muddy the waters a bit more. I get why Ben's sideways story would involve being reunited in a new capacity with Alex, and even with Danielle. But why would Danielle's sideways existence involve being in any kind of a relationship with Ben? Um, no. That seems dead wrong, unless you look at it with the consideration that maybe that's not really Danielle, or any vestige of her. Maybe, instead, she is purely a construct of Ben's own desires.

In other words, just because somebody is in your heaven, that doesn't necessarily mean you're in theirs. And if that is the case, then how many of thos echaracters can be considered to be the "real" versions of themselves? Is that really Shannon, or is she merely a figment of Sayid's desires? (I get why he needs her, by the way, and not Nadia; Nadia always represented his inability to move on from his violent past, whereas Shannon always represented him actually moving on from that past. That makes complete sense to me, and seems like precisely the right choice to tie up Sayid's story.) Why would Penny be there, especially without young Charlie Hume? Where is Ji-Yeon? Surely she belongs there, too.

A lot of this stuff just doesn't add up, and what a shame that is. The writers deliberately set out to construct a story that would allow the "mystery" of Lost to persist for years to come, but instead, I think people are going to poking plot holes in the structure and payoff of Season Six for years to come.

The producers and writers began telling us early on this year that we shouldn't be expecting too much in the way of answers, and while I've got to admit that it is their right to go down that road, I've got to say: it didn't work, and it's not really consistent with the rest of the series. Sure, there was always a reluctance on the show's part to answer much in the way of mythology-type questions. But for every one of those it failed to answer, it made up for by being extremely willing to answer questions about the characters. We came to a new, richer understanding of each of those characters every time the focus was on one of them in their flashbacks. Same goes for the flashforwards, in a different way.

But the sideways stories...? I liked some of them, and some of them even make me feel like I understand some of the characters better. But since the mechanics of what is going on, in the literal sense of the show's plot, are obfuscated, I don't feel as if I can trust some of those stories. Even some of the really good ones.

That, to me, is unsatisfactory storytelling. It's entirely possible to be too clever, and it's definitely possible to stumble in the process of trying to be clever. That's what happened here, as far as I'm concerned, and in retrospect, it's evident to me that the stumble began as soon as the season kicked off. The whole season just seems poorly conceived, somewhat poorly executed on an episode-by-episode basis (how big a waste of time was the entire stopover at the temple?), and capped off by a resolution that struggled for open-endedness where it would probably would have been better served by straight-forwardness. You can get to a place of ambiguity by being straightforward; sounds like a contradiction, but it isn't. (The X-Files excelled at it for about five seasons.)

On the other hand, they let Lapidus live. Awesome! I was so happy to see him, it didn't even feel like a cheat. (Glad to see Jeff Fahey having a bit of a career resurgence; bring on Machete!)

Does this make up for me once again having to hear a character spout the meaningless words "Now you're like I am"? Not really, but it didn't hurt any, that's for sure.

Which is exactly my point - the resolution to the whole sideways thing was constructed without much regard for what would make the most sense. Heck...most of the characters died just when they'd finally been redeemed. Sayid stopped being a Smokey-zombie and saved his friends...Boone let go of his attachment to his sister...Jack became a man of faith and saved the Island...Charlie did what was necessary to selflessly save Claire and Aaron...etc. One of the ongoing motifs in the show has been characters dying once they'd been redeemed. So why would those characters need to redeem themselves again in this weird afterlife? Since they've already realized in life that they needed each other, why would they need to discover it all over again afterward?

The answer is...they wanted a twist at the end. As far as I can tell, that's about it. They set up one self-consistent story and then they explained what it "really" meant at the last minute just to throw us, and to provide emotional satisfaction that easily could have been provided other ways.

I agree with all of that.

A friend pointed out that Juliet's line to Sawyer upon retrieving his, ahem, lost candy bar was something like "It worked," which is also what Miles "heard" her corpse thinking. I'm too lazy to look it up to see how true that is, but if it is true, it's intriguing, and it lends a bit of credence to the theory that the sideways world was not heaven or even purgatory, but a construct reality brought into existence by the combination of the island's electromagnetism with a nuclear explosion.

Thing is, if that's the case, then why are Penny and Desmond in the church at the end? Why, for that matter, are Charlie, Boone, and Shannon there, having died long before that bomb went off? [From a certain point of view, at least; the time-travel aspect of the fifth season makes this a bit difficult to sort out.] Same goes for Locke. I'm tempted by the idea of the sideways world as a new reality created by Faraday's math-ninja skills, but I don't think the evidence bears it out. In fact, I think it outright refutes it, or at least calls it into serious questions from a standpoint of logic.

Also, why is the island underwater at the beginning of the sideways plotline? This happens during Jack's story, and since that version of him doesn't know there is such a thing, what sense does it make that it would even be shown? Is it his subconcious at work, or some shit like that? If so, lame, and also, that would render everything that happens in the sideways story even more open to interpretation as to whether it is "really" "happening" or not. (I felt the need to qualify both of those words; since the sideways world already possesses a certain amount of unreality in comparison to the rest of the series, it's hard to properly use definitive words like those and have them mean what they would normally mean.)

Nope, sorry, none of this makes much sense at all. The finales for both The Sopranos and Battlestar Galactica are models of clarity and logic by comparison. Both are also handily superior, and while it's never very fair to compare one show to another, all three are so similar in terms of their desire to keep certain aspects of the show open-ended that the comparisons practically beg to be made.

[Datameister 2,044]

^ Brilliant post. Only thing I disagree with is the whole Shannon thing, which I forgot to mention - I found that unsatisfying simply because I never liked her character and I thought her brief romance with Sayid was a detour best left forgotten. On the contrary, I think Nadia represented salvation from Sayid's violent past - his career as a torturer ended because of her, and he ended up having his happiest months while they were married. So I wasn't moved by that scene...though all the others certainly made up for it on that level. But yeah, other than that, your post really nails it. Way too many BIG inconsistencies for it to make any sort of sense. It would have been a much more satisfying resolution for me if it had been a true alternate timeline.

But...just to play devil's advocate...I think Damon and Carlton are absolutely brilliant to have done it this way. I mean...I've spent a fair amount of time thinking about LOST for the last few years, but ever since Sunday night, I've had a hard time going more than a few minutes without thinking about it. And what more can you ask for as the creator of a show...having people obsessing about it for days, weeks, or even years afterward is a good thing for them! And...at the end of the day, it's a good thing for us, too. As frustrating as certain aspects of the finale were for me, LOST has always been a show that provokes discussion and debate and so forth.

Speaking of which...I was right. Whatever happened happened. Can't change the past. Take that, Koray.

[Bryant Burnette 654]

I have a new boss at work. There have been countless hours of discussion engendered by the (perceived-as) poor decisions made by his predecessor. If he hadn't made those choices, I'd have spent a lot less time talking about work, and a lot less time thinking about it, too. If he hadn't made those choices, there's a good chance I might have actually been able to enjoy work for the past few months.

A surge in thought and conversation is not inherently a good thing. I, too, will be thinking about the Lost finale off and on for some time to come, but it'll be mainly in an attempt to reconcile Season Six with the rest of the series. Methinks it'll be a failed attempt.

I sound like I'm totally railing on the show. I'm not; I'm just trying to explain (to myself, mostly) why I was disappointed by the final season of a series that had almost never disappointed me before. I'm definitely not trying to talk anyone out of their love for it, and if I happen to stumble across a positive take on the sixth season that changes my mind about it...? Trust me, I'd be freakin' thrilled for that to happen.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

One of the ongoing motifs in the show has been characters dying once they'd been redeemed. So why would those characters need to redeem themselves again in this weird afterlife? Since they've already realized in life that they needed each other, why would they need to discover it all over again afterward?

I see your point, and with some of the characters it seems the case. But who's to say that once they've performed a single heroic act and died they can personally let go and move on? What we as an audience see on the Island does not necessarily represent how the characters perceived themselves. The sideways-universe portrayed a very personal insight into the minds of these characters which we wouldn't be able to see otherwise - just as the flashbacks provided their pasts and the flash-forward their futures. The theme of "moving on" is what tied the whole finale, season and indeed the series as a whole together. And I believe the signs of this were apparent from the season premiere. Subtle, but there.

Jack's "redemption" was not saving the Island and his friends; it was far more complicated than that. He was his own worst enemy and his relationship with his father - and subsequent obsession with "fixing people" - was what truly troubled his life and what he needed to let go. He loses his father's coffin because he's not ready to say goodbye to him. He creates a son so that he can develop the relationship he always wanted with his own dad. He fixes Locke so he can feel in control. Finally he confronts his own father and they finally have the conversation they never got to have in the living world. Basically they're tying up all of their own loose ends, but need each other to do it.

I could go on about the other characters but Jack's really the one they put the most into from the start. Kate's an interesting one though - it's hard to tell what she needed to move on that she hadn't already accomplished. Delivering Aaron? Did it. Helping Claire be a mother? Did it. Perhaps she just needed to realise this on her own, so she forced herself to relive her finest hours. It also explains why Ben waited outside because he wasn't ready. He still needed to let Alex know exactly what she meant to him - and maybe she needed to hear it.

Etc.

[Bryant Burnette 654]

Only thing I disagree with is the whole Shannon thing, which I forgot to mention - I found that unsatisfying simply because I never liked her character and I thought her brief romance with Sayid was a detour best left forgotten. On the contrary, I think Nadia represented salvation from Sayid's violent past - his career as a torturer ended because of her, and he ended up having his happiest months while they were married.

Good points. I was never much of a Shannon fan, either, but I always completely bought that Sayid was a big fan of hers. It might also be argued that Sayid was only able to enjoy his time with Nadia because of the changes in him wrought by being with Shannon for their brief amount of time together. If that were true, I think you'd have to say that shannon was a greater influence on him than Nadia was.

I get what you're saying, though, and I can definitely see how the scene wouldn't work from that perspective. It'd then just seem like what it, in all seriousness, was: an excuse to have Maggie Grace in the finale.

Personally, I'd'a rather had Admiral Ackbar, or whatever the name of the man who played Eko is. Eko, I think, remains tied in a three-way tie with Locke and Desmond for my favorite character on the series; too bad he couldn't be coaxed back for a bit.

By the way, one of the aspects about Season six that I think worked the best is that it makes Eko's death resonate in a way that it never had before. Prior to learning all about Smokey, I'd always felt that Eko's death felt rushed and anti-climactic. Now, though, it's clear that Smokey found in Eko not only someone who wouldn't fit in with his plans, but also someone who would probably end up being a VERY powerful adversary, and therefore needed to be dispatched as soon as smokily possible.

Kinda awesome, that.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Personally, I'd'a rather had Admiral Ackbar, or whatever the name of the man who played Eko is. Eko, I think, remains tied in a three-way tie with Locke and Desmond for my favorite character on the series; too bad he couldn't be coaxed back for a bit.

Apparently he was offered a cameo but his asking price was six times what they were offering. Take that with a grain of salt though, I've not seen any solid sources on this.

[TownerFan 4,983]

My own theory is that the Sideways-verse is something almost totally created by Jack's mind/consciousness after his death. It's the world he created with his own perception as a simple human being, defined by the reality he went through and experienced during his life. It's a sort of Matrix-esque reality, but with a more pronounced metaphysical nature. It's a kind of "perfect" world in Jack's mind, but still flawed because he's still attached to his personal issues of his terrain life.

It's a place beyond space and time (much like the Island, I'd say). But it's the only place where he can finally be together with his loved ones and the people he care about, finally finding real peace and completeness. Once accepting this last stage of the journey, Jack can finally "move on" and go ahead.

However, if you have read Joseph Campbell's writings, the Sideways-verse could very well be seen as one of the final stages of the Hero's Journey: the Return to the Ordinary World with the Elixir that heal the world.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Campbell. Hmm. Good point.

One of the ongoing motifs in the show has been characters dying once they'd been redeemed. So why would those characters need to redeem themselves again in this weird afterlife? Since they've already realized in life that they needed each other, why would they need to discover it all over again afterward?

I see your point, and with some of the characters it seems the case. But who's to say that once they've performed a single heroic act and died they can personally let go and move on? What we as an audience see on the Island does not necessarily represent how the characters perceived themselves. The sideways-universe portrayed a very personal insight into the minds of these characters which we wouldn't be able to see otherwise - just as the flashbacks provided their pasts and the flash-forward their futures. The theme of "moving on" is what tied the whole finale, season and indeed the series as a whole together. And I believe the signs of this were apparent from the season premiere. Subtle, but there.

Jack's "redemption" was not saving the Island and his friends; it was far more complicated than that. He was his own worst enemy and his relationship with his father - and subsequent obsession with "fixing people" - was what truly troubled his life and what he needed to let go. He loses his father's coffin because he's not ready to say goodbye to him. He creates a son so that he can develop the relationship he always wanted with his own dad. He fixes Locke so he can feel in control. Finally he confronts his own father and they finally have the conversation they never got to have in the living world. Basically they're tying up all of their own loose ends, but need each other to do it.

My first impression after watching the finale was that the characters were presented an immaculate rebirth, free from the sins that haunted them in their lives. Now, thanks to the island, they had to struggle and eventually, all of them redeemed themselves. Now they get to live out the life they would have wanted. But this "desired" life is lame. It doesn't have the soul-searching meaning that a life of struggle would have. So, once they remember all that they had to go through to attain this perfect existence, they value it all the more and their "souls" gain completion. That's when they're ready to move on.

It's like the old saying that everyone should live twice. One to learn from your mistakes, and the other to apply that knowledge.

I could go on about the other characters but Jack's really the one they put the most into from the start. Kate's an interesting one though - it's hard to tell what she needed to move on that she hadn't already accomplished. Delivering Aaron? Did it. Helping Claire be a mother? Did it. Perhaps she just needed to realise this on her own, so she forced herself to relive her finest hours.

It always seemed to me that, through Aaron, Kate had finally found a stable connection. Something to define her life. She had always been running from herself, and from attaching herself to others, so her surrogate motherhood seems like an adequate exoneration.

[TownerFan 4,983]

Campbell. Hmm. Good point.

I'm quite sure Lindelof & Cuse applied the Campbell/Vogler paradigm very deeply and carefully into the show. Now that the story is concluded, we can definitely say that what we saw was Jack's Hero's Journey.

It always seemed to me that, through Aaron, Kate had finally found a stable connection. Something to define her life. She had always been running from herself, and from attaching herself to others, so her surrogate motherhood seems like an adequate exoneration.

Yes, Aaron is Kate's constant. I think this explain quite well why the child was so special and important to the overall scheme.

[Red 75]

Yes, Aaron is Kate's constant. I think this explain quite well why the child was so special and important to the overall scheme.

That also explains why he was in the church at the end.

It's hard to piece together which characters we saw in the sideways throughout the season were actually real or not. We know Jack's son David wasn't real and never existed in the real timeline, and probably other characters like Ben's school principal were probably constructs as well. But when you get to characters like Helen it's difficult to see where the island reality begins and the sideways universe ends. Chances are though since she did exist in the original timeline she was real, but the life Locke had with her probably was not.

This apparently comes from someone over at Bad Robot (though that might not be the case), and is a very good analysis of the entire show as it relates to the final season:

Good stuff on here! I can finally throw in my two cents! I've had to bite my tongue for far too long. Also, hopefully I can answer some of John's questions about Dharma and the "pointless breadcrumbs" that really, weren't so pointless ...

First ...

The Island:

It was real. Everything that happened on the island that we saw throughout the 6 seasons was real. Forget the final image of the plane crash, it was put in purposely to f*&k with people's heads and show how far the show had come. They really crashed. They really survived. They really discovered Dharma and the Others. The Island keeps the balance of good and evil in the world. It always has and always will perform that role. And the Island will always need a "Protector". Jacob wasn't the first, Hurley won't be the last. However, Jacob had to deal with a malevolent force (MIB) that his mother, nor Hurley had to deal with. He created the devil and had to find a way to kill him -- even though the rules prevented him from actually doing so.

Thus began Jacob's plan to bring candidates to the Island to do the one thing he couldn't do. Kill the MIB. He had a huge list of candidates that spanned generations. Yet everytime he brought people there, the MIB corrupted them and caused them to kill one another. That was until Richard came along and helped Jacob understand that if he didn't take a more active role, then his plan would never work.

Enter Dharma -- which I'm not sure why John is having such a hard time grasping. Dharma, like the countless scores of people that were brought to the island before, were brought there by Jacob as part of his plan to kill the MIB. However, the MIB was aware of this plan and interferred by "corrupting" Ben. Making Ben believe he was doing the work of Jacob when in reality he was doing the work of the MIB. This carried over into all of Ben's "off-island" activities. He was the leader. He spoke for Jacob as far as they were concerned. So the "Others" killed Dharma and later were actively trying to kill Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and all the candidates because that's what the MIB wanted. And what he couldn't do for himself.

Dharma was originally brought in to be good. But was turned bad by MIB's corruption and eventually destroyed by his pawn Ben. Now, was Dharma only brought there to help Jack and the other Canditates on their overall quest to kill Smokey? Or did Jacob have another list of Canidates from the Dharma group that we were never aware of? That's a question that is purposley not answered because whatever answer the writers came up with would be worse than the one you come up with for yourself. Still ... Dharma's purpose is not "pointless" or even vague. Hell, it's pretty blantent.

Still, despite his grand plan, Jacob wanted to give his "candidates" (our Lostaways) the one thing he, nor his brother, were ever afforded: free will. Hence him bringing a host of "candidates" through the decades and letting them "choose" which one would actually do the job in the end. Maybe he knew Jack would be the one to kill Flocke and that Hurley would be the protector in the end. Maybe he didn't. But that was always the key question of the show: Fate vs Free-will. Science vs Faith. Personally I think Jacob knew from the beginning what was going to happen and that everyone played a part over 6 seasons in helping Jack get to the point where he needed to be to kill Smokey and make Hurley the protector -- I know that's how a lot of the writers viewed it. But again, they won't answer that (nor should they) because that ruins the fun.

In the end, Jack got to do what he always wanted to do from the very first episode of the show: Save his fellow Lostaways. He got Kate and Sawyer off the island and he gave Hurley the purpose in life he'd always been missing. And, in Sideways world (which we'll get to next) he in fact saved everyone by helping them all move on ...

Now...

Sideways World:

Sideways world is where it gets really cool in terms of theology and metaphysical discussion (for me at least -- because I love history/religion theories and loved all the talks in the writer's room about it). Basically what the show is proposing is that we're all linked to certain people during our lives. Call them soulmates (though it's not exactly the best word). But these people we're linked to are with us duing "the most important moments of our lives" as Christian said. These are the people we move through the universe with from lifetime to lifetime. It's loosely based in Hinduisim with large doses of western religion thrown into the mix.

The conceit that the writers created, basing it off these religious philosophies, was that as a group, the Lostaways subconsciously created this "sideways" world where they exist in purgatory until they are "awakened" and find one another. Once they all find one another, they can then move on and move forward. In essence, this is the show's concept of the afterlife. According to the show, everyone creates their own "Sideways" purgatory with their "soulmates" throughout their lives and exist there until they all move on together. That's a beautiful notion. Even if you aren't religious or even spirtual, the idea that we live AND die together is deeply profound and moving.

It's a really cool and spirtual concept that fits the whole tone and subtext the show has had from the beginning. These people were SUPPOSED to be together on that plane. They were supposed to live through these events -- not JUST because of Jacob. But because that's what the universe or God (depending on how religious you wish to get) wanted to happen. The show was always about science vs faith -- and it ultimately came down on the side of faith. It answered THE core question of the series. The one question that has been at the root of every island mystery, every character backstory, every plot twist. That, by itself, is quite an accomplishment.

How much you want to extrapolate from that is up to you as the viewer. Think about season 1 when we first found the Hatch. Everyone thought that's THE answer! Whatever is down there is the answer! Then, as we discovered it was just one station of many. One link in a very long chain that kept revealing more, and more of a larger mosiac.

But the writer's took it even further this season by contrasting this Sideways "purgatory" with the Island itself. Remember when Michael appeared to Hurley, he said he was not allowed to leave the Island. Just like the MIB. He wasn't allowed into this sideways world and thus, was not afforded the opportunity to move on. Why? Because he had proven himself to be unworthy with his actions on the Island. He failed the test. The others, passed. They made it into Sideways world when they died -- some before Jack, some years later. In Hurley's case, maybe centuries later. They exist in this sideways world until they are "awakened" and they can only move on TOGETHER because they are linked. They are destined to be together for eternity. That was their destiny.

They were NOT linked to Anna Lucia, Daniel, Roussou, Alex, Miles, Lupidis, (and all the rest who weren't in the chuch -- basically everyone who wasn't in season 1). Yet those people exist in Sideways world. Why? Well again, here's where they leave it up to you to decide. The way I like to think about it, is that those people who were left behind in Sideways world have to find their own soulmates before they can wake up. It's possible that those links aren't people from the island but from their other life (Anna's parnter, the guy she shot --- Roussou's husband, etc etc).

A lot of people have been talking about Ben and why he didn't go into the Church. And if you think of Sideways world in this way, then it gives you the answer to that very question. Ben can't move on yet because he hasn't connected with the people he needs to. It's going to be his job to awaken Roussou, Alex, Anna Lucia (maybe), Ethan, Goodspeed, his father and the rest. He has to attone for his sins more than he did by being Hurley's number two. He has to do what Hurley and Desmond did for our Lostaways with his own people. He has to help them connect. And he can only move on when all the links in his chain are ready to. Same can be said for Faraday, Charlotte, Whidmore, Hawkins etc. It's really a neat, and cool concept. At least to me.

But, from a more "behind the scenes" note: the reason Ben's not in the church, and the reason no one is in the church but for Season 1 people is because they wrote the ending to the show after writing the pilot. And never changed it. The writers always said (and many didn't believe them) that they knew their ending from the very first episode. I applaud them for that. It's pretty fantastic. Originally Ben was supposed to have a 3 episode arc and be done. But he became a big part of the show. They could have easily changed their ending and put him in the church -- but instead they problem solved it. Gave him a BRILLIANT moment with Locke outside the church ... and then that was it. I loved that. For those that wonder -- the original ending started the moment Jack walked into the church and touches the casket to Jack closing his eyes as the other plane flies away. That was always JJ's ending. And they kept it.

For me the ending of this show means a lot. Not only because I worked on it, but because as a writer it inspired me in a way the medium had never done before. I've been inspired to write by great films. Maybe too many to count. And there have been amazing TV shows that I've loved (X-Files, 24, Sopranos, countless 1/2 hour shows). But none did what LOST did for me. None showed me that you could take huge risks (writing a show about faith for network TV) and stick to your creative guns and STILL please the audience. I learned a lot from the show as a writer. I learned even more from being around the incredible writers, producers, PAs, interns and everyone else who slaved on the show for 6 years.

In the end, for me, LOST was a touchstone show that dealt with faith, the afterlife, and all these big, spirtual questions that most shows don't touch. And to me, they never once waivered from their core story -- even with all the sci-fi elements they mixed in. To walk that long and daunting of a creative tightrope and survive is simply astounding.

[Jay 37,373]

Woah. A writer from LOST (allegedly) explains the finale:

http://designwoop.co...explained-well/

The entire article is absolutely worth reading, but here's a select quote for you:

the reason Ben's not in the church, and the reason no one is in the church but for Season 1 people is because they wrote the ending to the show after writing the pilot. And never changed it. The writers always said (and many didn't believe them) that they knew their ending from the very first episode. I applaud them for that. It's pretty fantastic. Originally Ben was supposed to have a 3 episode arc and be done. But he became a big part of the show. They could have easily changed their ending and put him in the church — but instead they problem solved it. Gave him a BRILLIANT moment with Locke outside the church … and then that was it. I loved that. For those that wonder — the original ending started the moment Jack walked into the church and touches the casket to Jack closing his eyes as the other plane flies away. That was always JJ's ending. And they kept it.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Yes, it was in Red Rabbit's spoiler tags.

The "only season 1 people" theory doesn't entirely ring true, though: Bernard and Juliet are there as well.

[Datameister 2,044]

No wonder that ending felt so disconnected to me. It was conceived while the show itself was still...lost. Those early episodes are fantastic, don't get me wrong, but the show hadn't found itself yet. And I think it ended up being a mistake to just use that original ending with barely any modification.

That being said, it is a very good read, and it's nice to get a clearer explanation of all the DHARMA/Ben/Others/Jacob business on the Island.

[Jay 37,373]

Woops, didn't see Red Rabbit's post somehow

There were several non-Season 1 characters in the church at the end - Juliet, Libby, Desmond, Penny, Bernard. But they captured "the essence" of JJ's original ending. All those non-season 1 characters were important to Jack or someone else in the church.

And it makes sense now why so many characters were not in the church:

Michael

Walt

Nikki/Paulo

Mr. Eko

Ben

Daniel Faraday

Charlotte

Miles

Richard

Frank Lapidus

Ilana

Eloise

Widmore

Danielle Rousseau

Alex Rousseau

[Elmo Lewis 6]

They probably "weren't ready" the same way Ana Lucia wasn't.

[Jay 37,373]

Right, but they also weren't part of Jack being ready to move on either.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

That really cleared up a lot of confusion and added more insight. Thanks for sharing!

[Olivier 5]

The number of skeletons suggests (as I had surmised and posted) that several people tried to see what there was; I had also hypothsized that "Mother" had done just that, which had enabled her to destroy the little village and explained her "thank you"; I wish there were some clue that one of the skeletons is hers; this is worth checking.

Um, her skeleton is in the cave with MIB. That was a petty big reveal.

Aaaaargh!! Of course! How could I utter such a stupid thing?!

sorry.

[Quintus 5,399]

A writer from the show has to come out and literally explain the ending? That's lame! But knoooooow; because it's LOST - it gets a pass!

[Olivier 5]

My own theory is that the Sideways-verse is something almost totally created by Jack's mind/consciousness after his death.However, if you have read Joseph Campbell's writings, the Sideways-verse could very well be seen as one of the final stages of the Hero's Journey: the Return to the Ordinary World with the Elixir that heal the world.

"almost": what of Desmond's reference to the other reality?

(Incidentally, I have not read anything by Joseph Campbell)

Woah. A writer from LOST (allegedly) explains the finale

With all the necessary caveats concerning the exact source, this is most interesting-- and what the posts in this thread were converging to.

Thanks for the link!

[Datameister 2,044]

Ah writer from the show has to come out and literally explain the ending? That's lame! But knoooooow; because it's LOST - it gets a pass!

Is there something you want?

(And it certainly doesn't get a pass from me. I've already said many times that I only loved the finale till it got to the final parts that apparently were concocted right after the pilot. At that point, only one half of the story was satisfying to me.)

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Just watched the finale again. It clicked. I'm perfectly satisfied and at peace with it now.

... Although I can't help but wonder where the hell they're gonna land the Ajira plane and where they're gonna the airport people.

[Marian Schedenig 8,208]

My first impression after watching the finale was that the characters were presented an immaculate rebirth, free from the sins that haunted them in their lives. Now, thanks to the island, they had to struggle and eventually, all of them redeemed themselves. Now they get to live out the life they would have wanted. But this "desired" life is lame. It doesn't have the soul-searching meaning that a life of struggle would have. So, once they remember all that they had to go through to attain this perfect existence, they value it all the more and their "souls" gain completion. That's when they're ready to move on.

Fully agreed.

[Jay 37,373]

I can't help but wonder where the hell they're gonna land the Ajira plane

Haha I was thinking the same thing, I just hadn't brought it up yet!

The Ajira plane would have only had enough fuel to make it from LA to Guam (plus a little more). So how in the hell is it going to get from the island to someplace useful now? Especially where they have NO IDEA what direction to go! Remember back in season 4 where going slightly off a specific course would cause you to go crazy and die? For years no one has been able to leave the island for that purpose - the others knew the special course for their sub, the freighties knew the right course for the Kahana. But Frank and crew don't know squat, how are they going to be OK?

and where they're gonna the airport people.

?

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Sorry. *What* they're gonna *tell* the airport people. Or the airline for that matter. That island keeps breaking every insurance company's balls.

Wow. Nitpicking. I guess it's the healthiest sign of acceptance of the whole thing.

[Datameister 2,044]

The Ajira plane would have only had enough fuel to make it from LA to Guam (plus a little more). So how in the hell is it going to get from the island to someplace useful now?

Just land at the nearest airstrip. They could catch another flight back to the states.

Especially where they have NO IDEA what direction to go! Remember back in season 4 where going slightly off a specific course would cause you to go crazy and die? For years no one has been able to leave the island for that purpose - the others knew the special course for their sub, the freighties knew the right course for the Kahana. But Frank and crew don't know squat, how are they going to be OK?

I thought they suggested that this was Jacob's doing, and that with him dead, it wouldn't be a problem anymore. Hurley was going to do things differently.

Honestly, none of that bothered me whatsoever. The on-Island resolution was, for the most part, very good.

[Marian Schedenig 8,208]

The Ajira plane would have only had enough fuel to make it from LA to Guam (plus a little more). So how in the hell is it going to get from the island to someplace useful now?

Just land in the water at a safe distance from the island, then activate some emergency beacon.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Or they crashed right after and joined Jack sooner than we thought. Doesn't really matter what happened, they ended up together.

[fommes 153]

Just saw Across the Sea, What They Died For, and the finale, and while at first I wasn't sure how to evaluate the final 'revelation', I've come to terms with it and I'm pretty sure, on a rewatch, I'll think it's pretty great.

I'm a bit unclear on one thing still (I just haven't thought it through yet, I must admit; it's pretty late here):

Can you interpret the 'purgatory' flashsideways (which I understand perfectly, btw; don't get where some of the confusion comes from) also as an alternate universe when you approach it from a 'scientific' point of view (as Olivier suggests)?

In other words: did the energy the bomb released or touched create that alternate universe, or is it 'just' the Incident itself (as Miles suggested in Season 5 Finale), and whatever happened, happened?

I must say I didn't see it coming, and thought it would be a kind of special alternate universe that would turn back into the other or something, with people who are variables and constants et al.

A few - at first sight - unanswered questions, that might have been answered elsewhere without my knowing (since I've pretty much ignored everything Lostwise lately), so I thought it wouldn't hurt posing them here; they're the details that have kept me busy while watching, and which I suspected would not be answered (this just off the top of my head):

- what's with the Dharma's "fertility issues"? how did that come about?

- who are the bodies in the cave when Locke goes to save Eko? (next to the toy truck)

- who appeared at the window when Hurley peeked into the cabin?

- what's with the glass eye they found in The Arrow?

- who was shooting at them when they were in the boat while time-travellling?

- I'm confused about the appearances of Walt: you've got 1) smokey that disguises as dead people and 2) Hurley who sees dead people; but what about Walt's appearance to Shannon (while dripping)? And Walt's appearance to Locke just after he was shot by Ben?

- what was the event happening when young Ben was in the classroom?

- I vaguely remember there's supposed to be a volcano on the island? didn't that play an important role in the history of the island?

- what's with the ash that kept the smoke monster out? where does it come from? is it from a previous outburst of volcano-like thing beneath the glowing light-water?µ

- it's been established that the ash keeps the smoke monster out, but suddenly it seems it was Dogen. how's that?

- how come Jacob sometimes appeared when everybody could see him (as a kid), and other times when only Hugo could see him?

- the Smoke Monster almost puts the wheel where we know it'll be, but then Mother destroys the well. should we assume that Smokey, at a later time, gets other people to dig it up again, install the wheel, and then the well - again - disappears?

Larger questions:

- The timeline is a bit confusing: so the Egyptians came before the Romans (with Jacob's real mother) did, right? And I assume "Mother" stem from them. So, most structures on the island should already have been built? But there appears to be no statue, no temple, no tunnels?

- why is Walt special? What's the connection between the various people that are special? And: what's with the birds that keep dying? Why should we 'study' Egyptian birds?

- Finally: too bad we didn't get to see more of the US Army that found its way to the island, or of the Egyptians, which I've been anxious to see for a few years.

While I think it's good that the writers have focused on the characters, and obviously it's the "literary" thing to do, I think they perhaps underestimated the interest in the mythology of the island. Telling us more about the Egyptians or the US army, for instance, wouldn't have necessarily meant turning the Force into Midichlorians. It would have been awesome to have more episodes like "Across the Sea". It's a six-season show, and there was plenty of room to expand more characters - after all, the issues our season-1 characters have, are limited, too, and the ones they have have been overly dealt with sometimes.

Strange how they didn't pick up this mythological interest more; one would think they might have thought about how various fandoms have jumped at all kinds of expansions (Tolkien, Star Trek, etc.). Might this be something Hollywoodian, too? The question whether Kate would end up with Jack or Sawyer, for instance? Which I myself was much less interested in that than in a further expansion of the character Jacob, just as an example, which I thought was in the end rather undeveloped in all its greatness.

[Red 75]

I'm a bit unclear on one thing still (I just haven't thought it through yet, I must admit; it's pretty late here):

Can you interpret the 'purgatory' flashsideways (which I understand perfectly, btw; don't get where some of the confusion comes from) also as an alternate universe when you approach it from a 'scientific' point of view (as Olivier suggests)?

In other words: did the energy the bomb released or touched create that alternate universe, or is it 'just' the Incident itself (as Miles suggested in Season 5 Finale), and whatever happened, happened?

I must say I didn't see it coming, and thought it would be a kind of special alternate universe that would turn back into the other or something, with people who are variables and constants et al.

I think you can interpret it that if you want, since we really do not know how the sideways universe was created outside of it being the collective consciousness of the Losties. The bomb may have had something to with it, and if not then maybe the island itself. I do think that the bomb did go off and did actually cause the incident, meaning whatever happened, happened. But at the same time the bomb may have had some indirect causal relationship to the existence of the alternate timeline, it' up in the air.

And I wasn't disappointed that we never got to see the backstory with the Egyptians or any other group in the past. We know they were there at one time and built all these monuments, we don't (or I don't) need to know much more beyond that. They were just another group that found the island at some point in time, like the Black Rock, U.S. army, Dharma, and Oceanic 815 and eventually all left or died out. I think that was the point of showing the 815 wreckage during the end credits sequence, it will be just another artifact to future inhabitants to show who came before.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I think that was the point of showing the 815 wreckage during the end credits sequence, it will be just another artifact to future inhabitants to show who came before.

YES! I was about to post that. When Hurley brings the next batch of candidates in, that wreckage will be there. It's now a part of the island's history like the Black Rock and everything else. So... in 50 years when they create a LOST: The Next Generation, the wreckage will be one of the new mysteries!

[Datameister 2,044]

Not really. The original beach eroded and the wreckage was submerged. Nice idea, though!

[Jay 37,373]

Funny video about unanswered LOST questions

http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1936291

[Red 75]

Funny video about unanswered LOST questions

http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1936291

Funny, but most of those have answers either explicitly stated or assumed.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Yeah only a handful of those are legitimate questions. That reminds me though, they did say they would address the supply drop and the volcano...

For the volcano, I can only assume it was somehow underground and infused with the light, hence why everything got red and steamy when the cork was removed.

[Datameister 2,044]

The video IS funny (and rather depressing), but I agree that a lot of them at least have plausible theories behind them, or even strong hints. But there are some that are truly inexcusable. Who in the world was attacking Sayid and Hurley? Widmore's people? That wouldn't make any sense, because Widmore had already been visited by Jacob at that point.

[Incanus 5,715]

Hey Marc! It is 108 pages already! You have to create a new Lost thread every 108 pages or the world will come to an end.

I am more than happy with the ending of the show after having mulled over it a few days. I guess you could demand answers for all the small and even some larger issues never addressed in the finale but they wrapped up the character stories and Jack's in particular in the most satisfying way for me.

I have always accepted that this show is about these people, the Island, whatever it is, is just a backdrop for their stories. Sure the Island is a character in itself and it significance grows over the seasons and the mythology is fascinating but the central characters are still at the heart of it all.

[Datameister 2,044]

I am more than happy with the ending of the show after having mulled over it a few days. I guess you could demand answers for all the small and even some larger issues never addressed in the finale but they wrapped up the character stories and Jack's in particular in the most satisfying way for me.

Yes, but...

I have always accepted that this show is about these people, the Island, whatever it is, is just a backdrop for their stories. Sure the Island is a character in itself and it significance grows over the seasons and the mythology is fascinating but the central characters are still at the heart of it all.

...this I disagree with. For me personally, the Island has always been much more than an unusual backdrop. It's part of what's defined the show. Yes, without the characters, the show would be nothing, but it wouldn't be much better off if it were just the characters. I mean, honestly, a sitcom with Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley, and Locke would be...an entertaining novelty in retrospect, now that we know the characters, but there'd be nothing special about it if that's what the show had been from the start. What's made the show so enormously and deservedly successful is the brilliant interaction between the characters and the Island mythology.

Now, as I've said, I turned out to be unexpectedly satisfied with the low level of mystery-solving they did in the finale, simply because the character-driven plot was so strong most of the time. I'm just saying that as a general principle, I think it short-changes the mythology to claim it's nothing more than a backdrop. It was the early mythology - the Others, the monster, the apparitions, etc. - that got me really curious what was going on. Only then did I start really engaging with the characters. The show would have been equally insignificant if either element were removed.

[Incanus 5,715]

...this I disagree with. For me personally, the Island has always been much more than an unusual backdrop. It's part of what's defined the show. Yes, without the characters, the show would be nothing, but it wouldn't be much better off if it were just the characters. I mean, honestly, a sitcom with Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley, and Locke would be...an entertaining novelty in retrospect, now that we know the characters, but there'd be nothing special about it if that's what the show had been from the start. What's made the show so enormously and deservedly successful is the brilliant interaction between the characters and the Island mythology.

Now, as I've said, I turned out to be unexpectedly satisfied with the low level of mystery-solving they did in the finale, simply because the character-driven plot was so strong most of the time. I'm just saying that as a general principle, I think it short-changes the mythology to claim it's nothing more than a backdrop. It was the early mythology - the Others, the monster, the apparitions, etc. - that got me really curious what was going on. Only then did I start really engaging with the characters. The show would have been equally insignificant if either element were removed.

The mystery was of course one of the main aspects of the show from the beginning and it was surely the spice of the show from beginning to the end as otherwise it would have gone from an intriguing to merely a survival story in its basic form. Naturally the mystical and mythological aspects of the Island played a major part in the lives of these characters forced to survive on it. I am not diminishing their effect or role in the series. It made it all the more curious as there many different philosphical and spiritual matters came into play when this backdrop revealed new aspects in conjunction with character revelations. What I was not bothered by in the finale was the way they wrapped things up without going into a long and winding tying up of small details and minutiae (well there were some major things left unexplained, I'll give you that), oh so fun to know, but really not so important to our characters. They would have been in "nice to know but not utterly necessary for my enjoyment of the series overall or understanding the overall plot"-category.

I guess it was the hazard of writing such a dense and convoluted story and keeping up the mystery by raising new questions while answering some of them. Soon the world created would grow out of the hands of the writers and even in a series that relishes in small details and references answering everything would become impossible. You would have to drop even major ideas aside to advance the main plot. And concepts and ideas change and some are deemed more important or interesting than others by the creators. For example the Dharma Initiative played its part as one of the mysteries but was not fully explained to us. But even with the evidence we have got we can all draw some kind of conclusion of the group and even create our theories of why and how they are on the Island. An "official" explanation would be nice but not having a full answer is not going to diminish my enjoyment of the story. This goes for so many other details left in a full or partial shroud of mystery.

And Lost as it is gives food for thought much more than it would if everything was explained. I like it that way. It retains some of its mystery still and is still open to interpretation.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

What I was not bothered by in the finale was the way they wrapped things up without going into a long and winding tying up of small details and minutiae (well there were some major things left unexplained, I'll give you that), oh so fun to know, but really not so important to our characters. They would have been in "nice to know but not utterly necessary for my enjoyment of the series overall or understanding the overall plot"-category.

They said there would be a DVD feature addressing this "category." To satisfy people's curiosity even though the show doesn't need them answered.

I guess it was the hazard of writing such a dense and convoluted story and keeping up the mystery by raising new questions while answering some of them. Soon the world created would grow out of the hands of the writers and even in a series that relishes in small details and references answering everything would become impossible. You would have to drop even major ideas aside to advance the main plot. And concepts and ideas change and some are deemed more important or interesting than others by the creators. For example the Dharma Initiative played its part as one of the mysteries but was not fully explained to us. But even with the evidence we have got we can all draw some kind of conclusion of the group and even create our theories of why and how they are on the Island. An "official" explanation would be nice but not having a full answer is not going to diminish my enjoyment of the story. This goes for so many other details left in a full or partial shroud of mystery.

I don't know if you've read it, but one of the writer's spoke out about the finale, and cleared a lot of things up. The Dharma Initiative was one the things he explained.

[Bryant Burnette 654]

I'm not sure how credible that "writer" is. He/she claimed that nobody was in the church except for Season One characters, and that is not only wrong, it's very, very wrong.

If one of the writers could be THAT mistaken about such a basic fact, then ... well, actually, that might explain some of Season Six's problems.

I'd guess the quote comes from somebody who has no association to the show whatsoever.

[TownerFan 4,983]

I too think it's an elaborate hoax. Damon & Carlton made it very clear that none of them (including all the writing and producing staff) would have come out explaining anything after the finale aired. So I guess we should take it with a huge grain of salt.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Absolutely. I doubt anyone in the writing team would be audacious enough to defy Darlton in such a way. They intentionally wrote the finale in an ambiguous way so people could interpret it for themselves. It looks like just another fan trying to tell everyone their theory is the right one.

[Incanus 5,715]

Yes that is why I worded my response as I did regarding the Dharma Initiative. I read the article mentioned but took it with a big grain of salt.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

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