'Filler' music, by John Williams

[indy4 155]

The walkie-talkies I don't mind. But the CGI E.T. is really annoying.

[Datameister 2,043]

That's a lovely idea, Quint, but the fact still remains that I start getting just a little bit distracted if I try to sit through the entire middle of the score. There are no bad moments, but so much of the middle of the score is so similar that it starts to lose my interest.

I disagree about "Mary Searches the Closet", though...I'm not sure why that cue bothers you. I mean, I don't think it's fantastic or anything, but I think it fits.

[indy4 155]

It's just so obvious that we're supposed to feel nervous, that adding generic high string tension-filled music a) doesn't add anything to the scene and b) is an annoyance because its so obvious and thus distracting.

[Datameister 2,043]

::shrug:: To each his own. Never bothered me.

[Quintus 5,399]

I get bored by parts of the score too, in fact I usually skip tracks wholesale when I listen to it.

In my posts above I'm referring to the music as score (as I usually do), meaning its function as music within the movie, and in that regard the score is nigh on perfect.

[publicist 4,643]

There's something brilliant about the Well of Souls music. It's some of JW's best suspense writing. Jaws and E.T. are perfection. There's a not a second of filler music.

Filler or not, this kind of music, Williams or not, always dies a fast death when i select cues for iTunes. There is just no reason for me to listen to rumbling suspense cues which don't even have a throughline.

Add that "crawling insects" track from TEMPLE OF DOOM.

[A24 4,333]

It's the juxtaposition of the big, romantic music vs. the tender 'little' story which thrusts E.T. into the upper echelons of potent movie scorcery, particulary during the closing seconds. See, Williams is telling us that it isn't really a little story all; but actually a huge, historic moment for Mankind. It's genius.

It's not a juxtaposition. It's a super magnification.

[Quintus 5,399]

@indy4

I can't remember for sure, but isn't that music you linked part of a longer cue which scored the entire scene, meaning that the strings weren't just "added" as if out of the blue; but rather that they make musical sense, within the context of the scene?

It's not a juxtaposition. It's a super magnification.

Same thing, just another way of putting it.

[Datameister 2,043]

Add that "crawling insects" track from TEMPLE OF DOOM.

Actually, I like that cue. Parts of it, at least.

As for "Mary Searches the Closet", most of it can be heard in that YouTube video - it starts with uneasy low-register rumblings, and then the violins come in, and then it ends on a happier chord.

[Quintus 5,399]

Ah I remember now. Yeah, it's like a little insert. It works fine, as those things usually do, with Williams.

[Datameister 2,043]

Well, I wouldn't call it an insert, since that usually refers to a brief cue written specifically to add on to or replace part of another cue. But I'm nitpicking.

[Quintus 5,399]

Again, I was referring to the film itself, specifically the editorial side.

[Datameister 2,043]

I thought you were referring to "music as score"...make up your mind, dear man!

[Quintus 5,399]

I was.

[Datameister 2,043]

Well, if we're talking film scores, "Mary Searches the Closet" isn't an insert! Not that it matters!

[Quintus 5,399]

Ha, what I mean is score as a film serving emotional tool, regardless of how and why it was constructed, but yeah, never mind.

[Uni 306]

How about "The Indianapolis Story" from Jaws? Filler? I'll admit, I sometimes hit the skip button on that one.

I can't believe no one jumped on this before now. Are you kidding. . . ? That's one of the most brilliant pieces in the score. That, along with "Father and Son," demonstrate Williams' enormous gifts for subtlety, subtext, and deep emotional underpinnings in a scene. In a thousand years, that piece could never qualify as "filler."

- Uni

[Andy 4,128]

You may be right. Perhaps filler is a bad way to describe the piece, as it works well in the film. Still, it doesn't thrill me as a standalone piece. "Father and Son" I appreciate much more.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I used to always skip the Abduction of Barry...perhaps I considered it "filler" music. Regardless, I've loved it for some time now. I guess CE3K really grew on me. I still don't like sitting through the first three minutes of Eye to Eye. I've always loved the Indianapolis Story. The E.T. closet music is not a highlight of the score, but it's like 30 seconds long! I still want it officially released with the rest of the score.

By the way, I was listening to my expanded ROTLA DCC/Concord hybrid playlist and remembered how awesome it is that we have Bad Dates. I especially love the ending when you see the dig site. For some reason I always thought that ending was a weird edit/insert from watching the movie. Even the "boring" parts of JW's 70s and 80s scores are better than a lot of his more exciting cues from modern scores. It needs to be said.

I'll repeat myself. Nothing in Jaws, E.T., ROTLA, SW, CE3K or even Hook feels like "filler" music. Yet I listen to modern scores like Nixon, Stepmom, TLW, Geisha, etc. and skip a significant portion of the CDs. KOTCS is a pretty bad offender. I can't make it through the cave and temple scenes.

[King Mark 3,631]

Minority Report and Saving Private Ryan have the highest % of filler

KotCS is still good enough for "unreleased music crusade"

[TownerFan 4,983]

These kind of topics are somewhat exclusive to film music fans and they shows all the idiosincracies of our listening habits.

First of all, we must keep in mind the composer doesn't write the music with the purpose of being heard separately from the images. So in many cases the composer writes what we call "filler music" (or "wallpaper" or "underscore", whatever you want) with the specific purpose of accompanying the scene with a certain kind of style which has to be first and foremost serviceable to the scene's needs. That's why when they produce the OST album, they generally try to re-think and rebuild the musical experience (and that's also why many of them doesn't like complete scores to be released on album).

As for John Williams, I too noticed his underscore style nowadays tends to be more "homogeneous" than in the past (even though never falls into the category of flat, long-sustained chords/pads, he's always very musical). He probably now likes to be more restrained and doesn't want to overscore the film. Yes, this kind of scoring tends to be the less interesting to be heard on disc, but that's the nature of his job.

What I like in Williams' music, even the "boring underscore" parts, is that it's composed and crafted with such a distinct voice and always with a musical sense in mind.

[Richard Penna 3,689]

I'd say Williams has more 'filler' than some composers I listen to, quite simply because he can't excel in every imaginable style.

Tom Newman beats the crap out of anyone trying to do low key, atmospheric music IMO, David Arnold can write a mean action cue, and I rarely consider much of the work they do to be filler, but then they tend to keep within their comfort zones (especially Newman who I can't imagine ever being hired for many scores Williams has done) and know their stuff in those zones.

I've used Revolutionary Road as an example before. I think a Williams score to that film would bore me, but Newman IMO is a natural at sustained periods of not much going on, and making it interesting. Williams is not.

[Quintus 5,399]

That's an interesting point. Certain composers do seem better suited to that sort of scoring style (or technique), than others.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Definatly. I don't think it's Williams best quality, to be honest.

[Ollie 1,059]

All I know is that before 1993-95 I could listen to a Williams score all the way through without hitting the "skip" button.

[publicist 4,643]

Minimalists for example. Or Bernard Herrmann.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Herrman is a great example. Especially Psycho.

[publicist 4,643]

All I know is that before 1993-95 I could listen to a Williams score all the way through without hitting the "skip" button.

I find lots of filler in his blockbuster scores like RAIDERS or SUPERMAN (or let's say music i wouldn't waste my time with). And as i said, PRESUMED INNOCENT isn't hot on the exciting-meter, either.

[Quintus 5,399]

There's a lot of it in North By Northwest too, but Herrmann somehow manages to keep me interested.

[steb74 53]

Well I certainly think that 'atmospheric music' is one of Williams' most interesting and best qualities without doubt.

Like I've already said, I believe 'filler' just comes down to the ears that are listening to it and ones own internal hardware and its ability to understand and process any given piece of material, I honestly believe there are too many theme chasers who need to be presented with the obvious for it not to come off as 'filler'.

On another note, it's good to see you return from the suspension zone Quint and still be able to create a thread of such differing opinions.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Well I certainly think that 'atmospheric music' is one of Williams' most interesting and best qualities without doubt.

Well, when he's good, he's really good, but otherwise his atmospheric music can be a bit...bland.

[Quintus 5,399]

Cheers steb74, nice of you to say so. Have to say though, the month flew by.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

You were gone?

[Ollie 1,059]

What?

[Quintus 5,399]

You were gone?

Not at all. I'm always here, in spirit.

It pleases me that you felt it.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

You most of your girlfriends, I felt nothing!

[Quintus 5,399]

Bastard.

[steb74 53]

Well, when he's good, he's really good, but otherwise his atmospheric music can be a bit...bland.

That's fair enough man, I just consider myself lucky enough to always find something of worth and interest.

For me his atmospheric music is as good as it gets and I don't hear anything as sonically rich or interesting from any other composer.

Cheers steb74, nice of you to say so. Have to say though, the month flew by.

Ha ha, I don't believe man ...I bet you were chalking off your calendar, porridge style

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Bastard.

Little-dick-wanker!

[Ollie 1,059]

You two need a room?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No, I'm finished.

[TownerFan 4,983]

Minimalists for example. Or Bernard Herrmann.

Interesting you point out this, because from the mid-90s on (since Nixon, I would say), Williams veered more toward a minimalist-influeced style, especially in his underscore. However he seems to be oriented more toward a Herrmann-like kind of minimalism than, say, a Philip Glass/Terry Riley one.

[Wojo 2,453]

I was about three days away from screen grabbing Force 10 from Navarone for my avatar. Nice to have you back to fill out the Robert Shaw niche at the message board.

[publicist 4,643]

Interesting you point out this, because from the mid-90s on (since Nixon, I would say), Williams veered more toward a minimalist-influeced style, especially in his underscore.

Everyone did it. Think of Horner since SNEAKERS or Zimmer in his THIN RED LINE/BATMAN-mode. I guess it became én vogue in the early 90s and has more or less stayed since. Obviously, Williams developed his own reading and even in KOTCS you'll find lots of minimalist techniques which never would have appeared in a 80's INDY-film.

[steb74 53]

Obviously, Williams developed his own reading and even in KOTCS you'll find lots of minimalist techniques which never would have appeared in a 80's INDY-film.

Would you be able or willing to point out examples?

A sincere question by the way.

[publicist 4,643]

Obviously, Williams developed his own reading and even in KOTCS you'll find lots of minimalist techniques which never would have appeared in a 80's INDY-film.

Would you be able or willing to point out examples?

A sincere question by the way.

From what i remember, the TEMPLE RUINS and DEPARTURE tracks are rather obvious examples, but i'm not a big fan of the score, so i don't have more specific cue titles or (god beware) filmic reference points.

[steb74 53]

From what i remember, the TEMPLE RUINS and DEPARTURE tracks are rather obvious examples, but i'm not a big fan of the score, so i don't have more specific cue titles or (god beware) filmic reference points.

Thanks for the examples, I guess I'm really more interested in what type of minimalist techniques are employed to see if they can be traced back to earlier usage, etc, in the Indiana Jones series.

[Jay 37,364]

You were gone?

I guess you missed this:

Guys: Quint has informed me that he's received a month long ban for criticising the censoring rule and wants everyone else to be careful because this thread is already dangerously close to the tipping point again.

[Hlao-roo 389]

What people are calling "filler music" is simply music that is too advanced for their immature ears to understand.

[Quintus 5,399]

Yeah, I for one am a dumb fuck. I guess that must be why some film music bores me to tears.