'Filler' music, by John Williams

[Hlao-roo 389]

Yeah, I for one am a dumb fuck. I guess that must be why some film music bores me to tears.

Yeah, I'm sure you're wasting your time. Go listen to Justin Timberlake or whatever rubbish to which people too inferior to properly appreciate film music listen.

[steb74 53]

Yeah, I'm sure you're wasting your time. Go listen to Justin Timberlake or whatever rubbish to which people too inferior to properly appreciate film music listen.

That's not fair man, the amount motivic and thematic development in any given Timberlake track puts Williams & Goldsmith to shame!

[Uni 306]

I find lots of filler in his blockbuster scores like RAIDERS or SUPERMAN (or let's say music i wouldn't waste my time with). And as i said, PRESUMED INNOCENT isn't hot on the exciting-meter, either.

I'd cast Presumed Innocent into the minimalist category--which is as it should be (that film certainly didn't warrant any boisterous, grandiose underscoring). But Raiders--and Superman? The latter in particular is one I've never felt had anything like filler music in it. But then . . . we're coming back to the same point again, which is that everyone has differing ideas and definitions on just what constitutes "filler" music.

- Uni

[steb74 53]

But then . . . we're coming back to the same point again, which is that everyone has differing ideas and definitions on just what constitutes "filler" music.

Indeed, which is why this thread still probably has another 10 - 20 pages to go

[Uni 306]

Minority Report and Saving Private Ryan have the highest % of filler

I'm not sure I'd argue with Minority Report . . . but I'm not ready to jump on the bandwagon with everyone who's saying SPR is overly fillerful. (Hah! I love inventing new words!) I don't know what sort of score people expect that film should've had. Something like Patton? A brassy military march, a la Midway or 1941? A bold heroic theme for Tom Hanks when he's storming the bunkers at Omaha or fashioning sock bombs? C'mon. This was a movie that demanded its music play as a quiet element in the background, sort of faded and grayish like the color palette of the film stock. That doesn't make it filler music. Maybe not the stuff that lights up Pops concerts--and maybe not something you prefer spending a lot of time listening to apart from the film--but I have a hard time disparaging it with the label of "filler."

First of all, we must keep in mind the composer doesn't write the music with the purpose of being heard separately from the images. So in many cases the composer writes what we call "filler music" (or "wallpaper" or "underscore", whatever you want) with the specific purpose of accompanying the scene with a certain kind of style which has to be first and foremost serviceable to the scene's needs. That's why when they produce the OST album, they generally try to re-think and rebuild the musical experience (and that's also why many of them doesn't like complete scores to be released on album).

He said it even better than me.

As for John Williams, I too noticed his underscore style nowadays tends to be more "homogeneous" than in the past (even though never falls into the category of flat, long-sustained chords/pads, he's always very musical). He probably now likes to be more restrained and doesn't want to overscore the film. Yes, this kind of scoring tends to be the less interesting to be heard on disc, but that's the nature of his job.

That's good. I like the word "homogeneous." It's a better adjective than "filler," more fitting and less denigrating.

That's not fair man, the amount motivic and thematic development in any given Timberlake track puts Williams & Goldsmith to shame!

Finally! I'm glad to see I'm not the only one around here who thinks so! I've always felt that his beat-box falsetto would've done loads to improve pieces like "Suo Gan". . . .

- Uni

[Hlao-roo 389]

As for John Williams, I too noticed his underscore style nowadays tends to be more "homogeneous" than in the past (even though never falls into the category of flat, long-sustained chords/pads, he's always very musical). He probably now likes to be more restrained and doesn't want to overscore the film. Yes, this kind of scoring tends to be the less interesting to be heard on disc, but that's the nature of his job.

That's good. I like the word "homogeneous." It's a better adjective than "filler," more fitting and less denigrating.

John Williams' music lacks diversity and discriminates against minorities!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I don't know what sort of score people expect that film should've had. Something like Patton?

I resent that remark.

Goldsmith's Patton is a work of genius, a testament of Maestro Goldsmith employment of thematic unity to create a coherent score that adds an additional layer of depth and hugely improves the narrative.

Naturally that was too much to expect from John Williams.

[Hlao-roo 389]

I don't know what sort of score people expect that film should've had. Something like Patton?

I resent that remark.

Goldsmith's Patton is a work of genius, a testament of Maestro Goldsmith employment of thematic unity to create a coherent score that adds an additional layer of depth and hugely improves the narrative.

Naturally that was too much to expect from John Williams.

Indeed!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I'll go even further and say that all of Maestro Goldsmith's films from the same year as SPR as of considerable higher quality. The thematic consistancy and unified scoring approach of in particular U.S. Marshalls and Deep Rising made 98'into another highlight in the silver-ponytailed composing legend.

[steb74 53]

I resent that remark.

Goldsmith's Patton is a work of genius, a testament of Maestro Goldsmith employment of thematic unity to create a coherent score that adds an additional layer of depth and hugely improves the narrative.

Naturally that was too much to expect from John Williams.

Ha, come on man ...don't be such a Jerry boy, you know perfectly well what he meant and what he said is true.

I'll go even further and say that all of Maestro Goldsmith's films from the same year as SPR as of considerable higher quality. The thematic consistancy and unified scoring approach of in particular U.S. Marshalls and Deep Rising made 98'into another highlight in the silver-ponytailed composing legend.

Only for those who need to be spoon fed their themes.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Have you even heard US Marshalls?

[Uni 306]

I resent that remark.

Goldsmith's Patton is a work of genius, a testament of Maestro Goldsmith employment of thematic unity to create a coherent score that adds an additional layer of depth and hugely improves the narrative.

Oh, no. Don't mistake me. I'm not pulling down Patton by what I said. It's absolutely a brilliant score to a brilliant film (as I wrote just this morning in another thread here. . . .). I'm just saying SPR wasn't a story about a balls-to-the-walls, historic military figure. It needed a different score. Saying so doesn't cast aspersions on either work.

John Williams' music lacks diversity and discriminates against minorities!

I'll expect your minorities report on my desk first thing in the morning. . . .

- Uni

[steb74 53]

Have you even heard US Marshalls?

Of course I have, so what? I doesn't change the fact that I think alot of people need to be musically spoon fed.

[indy4 155]

I think the final third of the Superman score is largely JW on autopilot. I'm not sure if that counts as filler or not.

I'll agree that MR does have a decent amount of filler, although I don't think it's the worst offender.

[steb74 53]

I think the final third of the Superman score is largely JW on autopilot. I'm not sure if that counts as filler or not.

I'll agree that MR does have a decent amount of filler, although I don't think it's the worst offender.

I do wonder what people think the criteria for autopilot is?

There seems to be a consistent idea that if somebody doesn't particulary like a piece or is not moved by it that the work was written on autopilot, the blame always being put on the music and not on the fact that the listener just doesn't like it or sometimes even get it.

For example with what you say about Superman ...now you dont have to like it, enjoy it, etc, you're certainly not obliged to but can you give any real reasoning as to why you think it was written on autopilot as opposed to you just not having any interest in that particular part of the score.

There seems to be so much "I like this piece, the composer must have been inspired" or "I don't like this piece, the composer must have been on autopilot"

[Jay 37,473]

"Writing on auto pilot" is as much of a debatable topic as "filler music" is. In fact, we recently had a 4 page thread on the very subject:

http://jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=18017

[Charlie Brigden 7]

It's Richard Donner's fault (well, probably more accurately Alexander and Ilya Salkind's). The latter part of Superman (just after the flying sequence) is just not as interesting as the parts that precede it, and because of it, the music suffers. For me, it all stems from the decision to concentrate on the first movie instead of Superman II as well, as that was originally going to have the turning back time ending. Because all of that got shoehorned into the first film, it gets overlong and it's not necessarily treated as well as what came before it, and as a result it gets boring, both film and music. This is only my assumption, but I don't find the music interesting at all, whether that's a result of Williams or the film, I don't know. Thankfully, it's not a hugely big deal in terms of the overall score as what came before is so good (and the end credits love theme is awesome).

Whether that is filler music, I don't know, but it's something I find myself sometimes skipping.

[indy4 155]

I think the final third of the Superman score is largely JW on autopilot. I'm not sure if that counts as filler or not.

I'll agree that MR does have a decent amount of filler, although I don't think it's the worst offender.

I do wonder what people think the criteria for autopilot is?

There seems to be a consistent idea that if somebody doesn't particulary like a piece or is not moved by it that the work was written on autopilot, the blame always being put on the music and not on the fact that the listener just doesn't like it or sometimes even get it.

For example with what you say about Superman ...now you dont have to like it, enjoy it, etc, you're certainly not obliged to but can you give any real reasoning as to why you think it was written on autopilot as opposed to you just not having any interest in that particular part of the score.

There seems to be so much "I like this piece, the composer must have been inspired" or "I don't like this piece, the composer must have been on autopilot"

Actually, it's not that I dislike the music in Superman I was referring to, I just think that a) most of the non-thematic material sounds like stuff we've heard from other scores of the period and b) Williams relies very heavily on common variations of themes he created earlier in the score. It's not a bore to listen to (although it could certainly be much more interesting). And keep in mind this is referring to the last third of the score. Cues like "The Big Rescue" are fresh and exciting for me.

[Uni 306]

I haven't reviewed that entire "autopilot" thread, but it's certainly a valid question--and a pretty strong charge to boot. Take that last third of Superman, for example. It's thick with music, constant and ingenious thematic references, an excellent example of how to score a blockbuster climax. However, even if you don't agree with that evaluation . . . are you seriously suggesting that Williams was sleepwalking his way through that part of the work? Weeks and months of serious effort went into writing, timing, orchestrating, matching, and preparing all that music. The average film composer clocks in at about 2 minutes of scoring a day. For just the last thirty minutes of Superman, that's more than two full months of full-time composition. When you listen to the complexity of "Chasing Rockets," "Superfeats," "Turning Back the World" and the like, it's easy to imagine it may have taken even longer to put all that together.

To take the metaphor back to its source: autopilot is what the captain engages on an airliner at high altitude when the sky is clear and no maneuvering is necessary. To compare sequences like the culmination and resolution of Superman to this is like saying Will Smith's character in ID4 was on autopilot when he was zipping through the canyons ahead of the alien spacecraft. Not a chance.

- Uni

[steb74 53]

Actually, it's not that I dislike the music in Superman I was referring to, I just think that a) most of the non-thematic material sounds like stuff we've heard from other scores of the period and b) Williams relies very heavily on common variations of themes he created earlier in the score. It's not a bore to listen to (although it could certainly be much more interesting). And keep in mind this is referring to the last third of the score. Cues like "The Big Rescue" are fresh and exciting for me.

Hey that's no prob man and I would hate you to think I was making some kind of attack, far from it.

I don't agree but that's cool ....I just deleted a bullshit lengthy reply which was not needed in the least

I haven't reviewed that entire "autopilot" thread, but it's certainly a valid question--and a pretty strong charge to boot. Take that last third of Superman, for example. It's thick with music, constant and ingenious thematic references, an excellent example of how to score a blockbuster climax. However, even if you don't agree with that evaluation . . . are you seriously suggesting that Williams was sleepwalking his way through that part of the work? Weeks and months of serious effort went into writing, timing, orchestrating, matching, and preparing all that music. The average film composer clocks in at about 2 minutes of scoring a day. For just the last thirty minutes of Superman, that's more than two full months of full-time composition. When you listen to the complexity of "Chasing Rockets," "Superfeats," "Turning Back the World" and the like, it's easy to imagine it may have taken even longer to put all that together.

To take the metaphor back to its source: autopilot is what the captain engages on an airliner at high altitude when the sky is clear and no maneuvering is necessary. To compare sequences like the culmination and resolution of Superman to this is like saying Will Smith's character in ID4 was on autopilot when he was zipping through the canyons ahead of the alien spacecraft. Not a chance.

- Uni

I agree and that's why in general I feel that people's attitude is mostly "I like this piece, the composer must have been inspired" or "I don't like this piece, the composer must have been on autopilot"

I just think alot of people don't have the staying power or can't keep up with richly and deeply woven thematic works and subsequently blame the music.

[Jay 37,473]

It's Richard Donner's fault (well, probably more accurately Alexander and Ilya Salkind's). The latter part of Superman (just after the flying sequence) is just not as interesting as the parts that precede it, and because of it, the music suffers. For me, it all stems from the decision to concentrate on the first movie instead of Superman II as well, as that was originally going to have the turning back time ending. Because all of that got shoehorned into the first film, it gets overlong and it's not necessarily treated as well as what came before it, and as a result it gets boring, both film and music. This is only my assumption, but I don't find the music interesting at all, whether that's a result of Williams or the film, I don't know. Thankfully, it's not a hugely big deal in terms of the overall score as what came before is so good (and the end credits love theme is awesome).

Whether that is filler music, I don't know, but it's something I find myself sometimes skipping.

Agreed with everything you just said here!

[publicist 4,643]

SUPERMAN has its share of great moments, but most of them come before Metropolis. And while it is quite right to say that it isn't filler music per se, i don't hear any musically interesting developments, either.

As i said, i never saw statements like these as a snide remarks against Williams' writing abilities. Hearing Goldsmith sawing happily away on my nerves with sickly-sweet POWDER schmaltz or Horners never-ending near-comatose 11-minute tracks without anything happening makes me nauseous, too. It doesn't take anything away from their splendidness and that goes for all three of them.

[Quintus 5,399]

You told me you loved me

Why did you leave me, all alone

(All alone)

Now you tell me you need me

When you call me, on the phone

(When you call me on the phone)

Girl I refuse, you must have me confused

With some other guy

(I'm not like them baby)

Your bridges were burned, and now it's your turn

(It's your turn)

To cry

Masterful.

[steb74 53]

SUPERMAN has its share of great moments, but most of them come before Metropolis. And while it is quite right to say that it isn't filler music per se, i don't hear any musically interesting developments, either.

As i said, i never saw statements like these as a snide remarks against Williams' writing abilities. Hearing Goldsmith sawing happily away on my nerves with sickly-sweet POWDER schmaltz or Horners never-ending near-comatose 11-minute tracks without anything happening makes me nauseous, too. It doesn't take anything away from their splendidness and that goes for all three of them.

Rightly so ....but just because one doesn't hear any musically interesting developments, doesn't mean that they aren't there for someone else to hear

You told me you loved me

Why did you leave me, all alone

(All alone)

Now you tell me you need me

When you call me, on the phone

(When you call me on the phone)

Girl I refuse, you must have me confused

With some other guy

(I'm not like them baby)

Your bridges were burned, and now it's your turn

(It's your turn)

To cry

Masterful.

Ha, you're just pushing to get another ban!

[Quintus 5,399]

Nah, I'll be okay, so long as I don't call anyone a c**t.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Cunt?

[Quintus 5,399]

No, coot. As in, you old coot!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Oops!

[steb74 53]

No, coot. As in you old coot!

Ahh, I thought it was

[Luke Skywalker 1,805]

Cunt?

how did you bypass the censoring filter?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Fuck, man! We have not had this whore-ing filter for a ass long time now

[Quintus 5,399]

I dunno, sometimes I wonder how people bypass the process of natural selection.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It ain't easy!

[John Crichton 4]

Anyone who says any part of Superman is "autopilot" (a term I'm almost always loath to use anyway) deserves to be called every word the filter used to censor.

[Andy 4,206]

The last third of Superman is underrated.

[King Mark 3,631]

it's not as great of a listening experience as the Star Wars OT ,Indiana Jones scores

[Quintus 5,399]

Well it didn't filter 'Twat', but they'd still deserve to be called one.

[John Crichton 4]

Indeed.

The last third of Superman is underrated.

By a surprising number of people yes.

[steb74 53]

Anyone who says any part of Superman is "autopilot" (a term I'm almost always loath to use anyway) deserves to be called every word the filter used to censor.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,489]

"Destiny's Path" from Memoirs of a Geisha = zzzzzzz...

[Romão 2,276]

"Destiny's Path" from Memoirs of a Geisha = zzzzzzz...

Really? I actually absolutely love that track

[indy4 155]

Actually, it's not that I dislike the music in Superman I was referring to, I just think that a) most of the non-thematic material sounds like stuff we've heard from other scores of the period and b) Williams relies very heavily on common variations of themes he created earlier in the score. It's not a bore to listen to (although it could certainly be much more interesting). And keep in mind this is referring to the last third of the score. Cues like "The Big Rescue" are fresh and exciting for me.

Hey that's no prob man and I would hate you to think I was making some kind of attack, far from it.

I don't agree but that's cool ....I just deleted a bullshit lengthy reply which was not needed in the least

For the record, I never got an angry vibe from your post.

I haven't reviewed that entire "autopilot" thread, but it's certainly a valid question--and a pretty strong charge to boot. Take that last third of Superman, for example. It's thick with music, constant and ingenious thematic references, an excellent example of how to score a blockbuster climax. However, even if you don't agree with that evaluation . . . are you seriously suggesting that Williams was sleepwalking his way through that part of the work? Weeks and months of serious effort went into writing, timing, orchestrating, matching, and preparing all that music. The average film composer clocks in at about 2 minutes of scoring a day. For just the last thirty minutes of Superman, that's more than two full months of full-time composition. When you listen to the complexity of "Chasing Rockets," "Superfeats," "Turning Back the World" and the like, it's easy to imagine it may have taken even longer to put all that together.

To take the metaphor back to its source: autopilot is what the captain engages on an airliner at high altitude when the sky is clear and no maneuvering is necessary. To compare sequences like the culmination and resolution of Superman to this is like saying Will Smith's character in ID4 was on autopilot when he was zipping through the canyons ahead of the alien spacecraft. Not a chance.

- Uni

IMO autopilot means caring more about the technical, mathematical challenges of syncing music with film than the music and the emotional effect it will have on an audience. It doesn't necessarily mean it's easy to do, but for somebody of Williams experience and skill, I'd imagine scoring the last third of Superman was less of a challenge than, say, writing Images. I don't think there's really anything in the world of opinions of "easy" or "hard," the only way we make such an assessment is through its ease in relation to to other feats. For instance, if the worst think a score has ever done to me was bore me, then it's only really bad in relation to other scores that I've liked. In that way, nothing is really on autopilot or off autopilot. It's all in relation. And, in relation to a majority of Williams' work, I'd say that the last third of Superman is on autopilot, despite the technical complexity.

[steb74 53]

For the record, I never an angry vibe from your post.

Thanks, that's one of the difficult things about the internet and it worries me at times because something that is meant to be a question, etc, can easily seem like an attack or something else.

IMO autopilot means caring more about the technical, mathematical challenges of syncing music with film than the music and the emotional effect it will have on an audience. It doesn't necessarily mean it's easy to do, but for somebody of Williams experience and skill, I'd imagine scoring the last third of Superman was less of a challenge than, say, writing Images. I don't think there's really anything in the world of opinions of "easy" or "hard," the only way we make such an assessment is through its ease in relation to to other feats. For instance, if the worst think a score has ever done to me was bore me, then it's only really bad in relation to other scores that I've liked. In that way, nothing is really on autopilot or off autopilot. It's all in relation. And, in relation to a majority of Williams' work, I'd say that the last third of Superman is on autopilot, despite the technical complexity.

While I don't agree in the sense that the whole of the Superman score works and resonates deeply within me, I indeed respect your opinion and more for the fact that for once in my life someone has stepped up and actaully explained what they mean, so good one man!

[indy4 155]

[Uni 306]

Yah, I'll go with you on that one, steb. Very clearly stated, indy. The score for Superman works for me in its entirety, but you at least explained your side of things well.

it's not as great of a listening experience as the Star Wars OT ,Indiana Jones scores

Actually, given the opportunity to listen to either Superman or Episode IV beginning to end, I'd go with Superman every time.

- Uni

[publicist 4,643]

Rightly so ....but just because one doesn't hear any musically interesting developments, doesn't mean that they aren't there for someone else to hear

I prefer the explanation that all people except me and those wo agree with me are stupid gits and don't know squat. So...

[Quintus 5,399]

I even skip all that 'in agreement' stuff - I just find it more agreeable to hate everyone.

[Ollie 1,064]

Indeed.

I will say there's not a wasted note in Superman.