What happened to the piece from the play that was going to be in the movie?

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Remember when they said they were going to put a song from the play in the film? Did they ever do that?

*Edit- I found something here, sounds like The Charge and Capture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCFupJ8JqAw&feature=g-vrec&context=G225158dRVAAAAAAAAAQ

[Incanus 5,714]

Actually the composer and song writer for the play had hopes of the film using one of their songs but it seems that it did not happen, at least I can't remember any in the film. Still the music in the clip sounds awfully like it was used as a temp track for the charge scene in the film and bled into Williams' score as well.

[indy4 155]

I must say, I am really disappointed. The similarities aren't even superficial, like Zimmer's influence in "No Man's Land." Williams seems to have taken the structure, instrumentation, and even some of the rhythms straight from the play. "Charge and Capture" was one of my favorite cues on the album, and it played a big role in how Williams developed the rest of the action material. I don't consider this a strike against Williams' character as I would (for instance) when Horner steals from Rachmaninoff, as clearly Williams was trying to reference the play and not pass off another composer's work as his own, but it's always disappointing to discover that one of your heroes didn't really accomplish what you thought he did.

Oh well. Williams still embellishes the cue a little, so it's not a total copy. I'd love to hear the entire cue from the play to see how the play's composer handles the rest of the action.

As for the song, the end credits credited "The Scarlet and the Blue," which also appears on the soundtrack from the play. I don't recognize the melody from the Amazon sample, so my best guess is that it was the tune that bagpipe player was playing when the British charged out of the trenches.

However, I also remember Roald saying that his friend told him that the piano theme heard in track 15 might be based on a song from the play. As far as I know, we were never able to confirm/deny this.

[Incanus 5,714]

Oh so they used a song after all. I just thought it was something traditional and not by Tams.

But the song The Scarlet and the Blue sounds like something they might have used in the scene before they go to war and the British troops are marching through the streets. It is,if the soundtrack of the play is chronological, used in that point in the play as well.

But it is a rather shocking to note how close Williams' final cue is to Sutton's piece for the charge. Tut tut Johnny, getting into Horner's game at this point of your career.

Oh and Roald's friend just thought that the Friendship melody sounded like something from the music of the play as you say no one, and I think some of us here have heard the music of the play, has denied or confirmed this.

[Brónach 1,302]

Hmmmm. I dunno what to think.

I like that video, I should check out the music from the play.

[KK 3,307]

Aye...I wish I never saw this video!!!! I loved that cue, but the similarities are there. Oh well, Williams voice is still very apparent in this cue and it is a great piece of music. I still think Williams' track is better, and I certainly don't think this goes to Horner's levels.

The music of the play sounds promising too.

[lostinspace 8]

Makes you wonder how much of the film was temped. I'm coming to the realization that Spielberg is only interested in music that works, and, well it's a safe route if he just rewrites the temp track in his own style keeping that horse gallop rhythm. I really wonder how much temp tracking is done, I assumed JW wouldn't need it will all his experience? Quite disappointing...

On a side note this piece and JW's Charge and Capture, sounds ( toward the end) very like Holsts, Mars.

[Greg1138 3]

I don't think it's a reflection on a composer's experience as to whether or not a temp-track is used? I feel it is more the case that it is the simplest way for a director to convey their "vision" (in an auditory sense) to said composer. it's either that, or many, many long dark nights going through minute by minute explaining exactly what they want....and I don't think they got time for that given how busy they are and how tight deadlines are for "event" movies such as this one. Let's not forget - it's a Spielberg Film....Williams is not writing the score for "War Horse", he is writing the score for Spielberg's interpretation of it.

[SF1_freeze 131]

What's the problem people? This is just a rearrangement of a cue of the play. It was publicly said that they would use something of the play. That's perfectly justificable and in no way dissapointing. It is rather comforting to know that a deliberate connection to the very successful stage soundtrack was created after all.

And it happened in one of the weakest tracks of the album (which is still good of course). So really, get your things together

[Brónach 1,302]

It's disappointing because we thought it was all John Williams.

As for "one of the weakest", I'm on the opinion that the so called "first act" it's too static and I thank the change in the later tracks. I probably enjoy this cue more than some stuff in the first act because of that... At least in the OST, I haven't listened to anything else.

[Sandor 797]

Oh and Roald's friend just thought that the Friendship melody sounded like something from the music of the play as you say no one, and I think some of us here have heard the music of the play, has denied or confirmed this.

I asked him many times about something more specific back in December, but never got anything conclusive. I assume if the Friendship Theme came from the play, we would have known by now.

[Datameister 2,043]

Mmmmmm....very interesting comparison. The resemblance is undeniable, and clearly not coincidental. I confess that I'm a little disappointed, too, not because I think Williams shouldn't have done this - is it any different than other composers using Hedwig's theme in the later Potter films? - but because I, too, had thought this was just pure Williams, and I was pleased to hear some fresh action music. Knowing now that this was more his (perfectly legitimate) reinterpretation of another composer's music makes me a little less impressed with its freshness.

Not a huge deal, and it's an excellent cue regardless, but still slightly disappointing.

[Incanus 5,714]

Not a huge deal, and it's an excellent cue regardless, but still slightly disappointing.

I have been shedding tears of blood whole day because of this. The horror, the horror.

And incidentally Williams' cue also had a lot in common with his own track The Motorcade from JFK (especially the dissonant blaring brass) in the first place so it was no entirely fresh to my mind to begin with although still a very good and effective and most of all different way to score the action.

[Omen II 1,235]

As for the song, the end credits credited "The Scarlet and the Blue," which also appears on the soundtrack from the play. I don't recognize the melody from the Amazon sample, so my best guess is that it was the tune that bagpipe player was playing when the British charged out of the trenches.

The piper is playing the traditional tune Blue Bonnets O'er The Border just before the tommies go over the top.

I saw the film this afternoon and I think Incanus has it right about the placement of The Scarlet and the Blue. The only other source music I noticed and could identify was Roses of Picardy being played on the gramophone while the officer was sketching. For the record, I very much enjoyed the film too.

[Jay 37,364]

Does this help at all?

[Incanus 5,714]

Yes The Scarlet and the Blue is indeed featured briefly in the scene where the British troops are marching through the village and off to war.

[Datameister 2,043]

And incidentally Williams' cue also had a lot in common with his own track The Motorcade from JFK (especially the dissonant blaring brass) in the first place so it was no entirely fresh to my mind to begin with although still a very good and effective and most of all different way to score the action.

Interesting...I'm not familiar with JFK, so I wouldn't have picked up on the similarity.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

As I said in a other thread, I prefer the action music in Tintin over the War Horse's.

Maybe it was my brilliant ear that subconsciously noticed that it isn't Williams.

[Datameister 2,043]

The action music in Tintin is TOO Williams.

[Incanus 5,714]

The action music in Tintin is TOO Williams.

Well that's one way of putting it.

[Sandor 797]

So Williams didn't stray too far from a temp track.... Like this has never happened before... Remember Hook (Banning Back Home, You Are The Pan, ...)...?

[Datameister 2,043]

Hook is a far more dramatic example, in my opinion, but this one "hurts" a little more because it was the apparent freshness that excited me.

However, I'm really glad to have seen the video for another reason: the horse puppets! Wow! They're incredible. Really lifelike. I've been watching some other YouTube videos about the show, and I'm truly impressed.

[Incanus 5,714]

Hook is a far more dramatic example, in my opinion, but this one "hurts" a little more because it was the apparent freshness that excited me.

However, I'm really glad to have seen the video for another reason: the horse puppets! Wow! They're incredible. Really lifelike. I've been watching some other YouTube videos about the show, and I'm truly impressed.

Yes I have seen those videos too and I have to agree that the way they created the horses for the production of the play is really impressive and inventive.

[KK 3,307]

As I said in a other thread, I prefer the action music in Tintin over the War Horse's.

Maybe it was my brilliant ear that subconsciously noticed that it isn't Williams.

Hold on there, just because of one cue, we're going to automatically assume that all the War Horse action music is unoriginal? I don't think so!

No Man's Land and Pulling the Cannon are still awesome!

- KK

[Datameister 2,043]

[indy4 155]

Mmmmmm....very interesting comparison. The resemblance is undeniable, and clearly not coincidental. I confess that I'm a little disappointed, too, not because I think Williams shouldn't have done this - is it any different than other composers using Hedwig's theme in the later Potter films? - but because I, too, had thought this was just pure Williams, and I was pleased to hear some fresh action music. Knowing now that this was more his (perfectly legitimate) reinterpretation of another composer's music makes me a little less impressed with its freshness.

Not a huge deal, and it's an excellent cue regardless, but still slightly disappointing.

Exactly my thoughts. I'm not upset at Williams, I'm just disappointed that we can't add this ingenious cue to his list of greats.

As I said in a other thread, I prefer the action music in Tintin over the War Horse's.

Maybe it was my brilliant ear that subconsciously noticed that it isn't Williams.

Hold on there, just because of one cue, we're going to automatically assume that all the War Horse action music is unoriginal? I don't think so!

No Man's Land and Pulling the Cannon are still awesome!

- KK

Not to mention "The Desertion." That is classic Williams.

[lostinspace 8]

It's certainly a very melodic and beautiful score, but parts of it are very derivative of other composers most notably Holst and maybe Vaugn Williams. As many reviewers state, Williams is using his very high level skill to channel other composers. This is in stark contrast to Tintin, which is very much JW through and through. There is a piece in there - " death of topthorn" i think that sounds very similar to Anakins Betrayl. It may well have been used in the temp track. I should also emphasize what was stated above, there is also some classic JW in there, like the Desertion. I would bet a large amount of money that this film was temped! I only wish JW didn't follow it and came up with his own ideas!

[Sandor 797]

It's certainly a very melodic and beautiful score, but parts of it are very derivative of other composers most notably Holst and maybe Vaugn Williams.

Maybe Vaughan Williams...? If you're not even sure, please refrain from making such accusations.

[SF1_freeze 131]

It's certainly a very melodic and beautiful score, but parts of it are very derivative of other composers most notably Holst and maybe Vaugn Williams. As many reviewers state, Williams is using his very high level skill to channel other composers. This is in stark contrast to Tintin, which is very much JW through and through. There is a piece in there - " death of topthorn" i think that sounds very similar to Anakins Betrayl. It may well have been used in the temp track. I should also emphasize what was stated above, there is also some classic JW in there, like the Desertion. I would bet a large amount of money that this film was temped! I only wish JW didn't follow it and came up with his own ideas!

The similiarity between "Death of Topthorn" and "Anakin's Betrayal" is not there and the score is through and through Williams. This is a typical case of criticism without any prove.

If you are really convinced that these completely different tracks sound similiar you probably also think "Superman's Theme" and "Starwars Main Title" are similar or "Imperial March", "Trade Federation March" and "Flag Parade" are similar etc...

That would show that you are a superficial listener who confuses the same style or genre with being derivative...

If you really think about it you would come to the conclusion that John Williams has already done 90% of all the styles and genres that exist. So he will repeat a style he has already done if it is a genre of film he has already done. But that is NOT derivative!!!

And again if Holst did that same style too that only means they share a style of music and NOT being derivative. Otherwise it would mean that every living and dead composer was derivative of the first composer who composed in a certain music-style which is of course complete nonsense.

[Incanus 5,714]

It is a different thing to say Williams depicts some emotions such as joy, tragedy or sorrow and triumph in similar vein in his music quite often than to say that the music is an outright copy of something he has done previously. I can certainly hear Williams' elegiac compositional style in ROTS, Munich, WotW and War Horse and JFK and BOTFJ and Nixon and many other scores, where the composer is expressing loss and sadness in his trademark style. It all shares a common stylistic basis but the content in terms of melody etc. is different.

I think it is about how the composer hears or feels such emotions in his mind and heart and how he then projects them into music. Williams has always had that distinctive style of writing mournful music.

[indy4 155]

Yup. This score is Williamsesque enough, but it also ventures into some new territory for the maestro. IMO, this is the best possible situation. I do hear the similarity with a section of "Anakin's Betrayal" and track 12, but structurally they are completely different beasts. It's like saying "Jungle Chase" is derivative of "Battle of the Heroes" because they both use synchronized flute/xylophone hits.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

What's the problem people? This is just a rearrangement of a cue of the play. It was publicly said that they would use something of the play. That's perfectly justificable and in no way dissapointing. It is rather comforting to know that a deliberate connection to the very successful stage soundtrack was created after all.

And it happened in one of the weakest tracks of the album (which is still good of course). So really, get your things together

I agree. People are disappointed by this simply because they were ignorant about it.

Hey guys, John won an Oscar for Fiddler On The Roof, but he did not actually write most of that score!

[indy4 155]

It's not an issue of being upset with JW's moral character. I don't view this as stealing, I view it as a situation where JW was asked to replicate a cue but change is slightly so it meshes better with the film (kinda like "Swing, Swing, Swing). It's an issue of wishing we could add one more awesome piece of music to JW's repertoire.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Good music is good music.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I kinda feel like the play's score should have been credited for Charge. Like a "based on" designation.

[Incanus 5,714]

I kinda feel like the play's score should have been credited for Charge. Like a "based on" designation.

Shush. How much temp track gets credit in the movies in general?

[Datameister 2,043]

It's not an issue of being upset with JW's moral character. I don't view this as stealing, I view it as a situation where JW was asked to replicate a cue but change is slightly so it meshes better with the film (kinda like "Swing, Swing, Swing). It's an issue of wishing we could add one more awesome piece of music to JW's repertoire.

True.

Good music is good music.

Also true.

[TownerFan 4,983]

Sorry to ask: but are you all basing your plagiarism allegiations ONLY on those 30 sec. sample heard on the YouTube video? Did anyone listen to the full cue from the show?

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

Plagiarism allegations? I have to apologize for provoking this conversation, some of us seems to take these

"plagiarism suspicions" too seriously and personally... I forgot all the smileys.

I just meant that maybe that stage play music showed the direction for all the action music in the film.

[TownerFan 4,983]

It surely sounds very similar from what I get, don't get me wrong. But I'd love to hear the full piece and comparing it to Williams' to have a more rounded opinion.

[indy4 155]

Well the full track is only 1:20, so we heard a good portion of it.