How is "Victory Celebration" supposed to end?

Datameister · August 30, 2009

So one thing that's bugged me for quite some time is the way the '97 "Victory Celebration" runs into ROTJ's end credits. I like the cue, but the transition kills it. On the album, we're presented with both cues separated by a brief silence. This preserves the 4/4 meter - "Victory Celebration" resolves on a Bb major chord on beat 3, and the next measure is the end credits, starting in Eb. This is perhaps the most musically sensible way of presenting it, but it also sounds very different from the continuous transitions heard in all the Star Wars films. Things get really weird in the film itself, where the final Bb chord of "Victory Celebration" runs right into the first Eb chord of the end credits, suggesting a 2/4 measure and producing a very weird tonality that doesn't really resolve in any satisfactory way.

What I'm wondering is...what was Williams thinking? Did he intend for there to be a pause, and then someone decided at the last minute that it'd be more consistent for the final cue to transition right into the credits? Did Williams forget that all the end credits (sans ANH) start in Eb? It's a little mind-boggling. Why didn't he just write the new cue in C minor instead of G minor? Then the final chord would have been Eb major, allowing the two cues to run continuously without the...weirdness.

I know this is rather minor thing to start a thread about...but hey, at least I didn't add a poll!

Nick Parker · August 30, 2009

I think I remember reading that some others have noticed this as well and made personal edits to rectify the problem, but that is all I know (I do not remember the piece well enough).

indy4 · August 30, 2009

I love that pause. I think it gives the OT a sense of closure, by having a very concrete end of the the last cue of the series (or the last one that's underscoring a "real" part of the film).

MissPadmé · August 30, 2009

Maybe it was originally meant to be ONE 3/4 measure. Victory Celebration ending on 3 and the Credits start on 1. to give it that V-I feeling

Henry B · August 30, 2009

So one thing that's bugged me for quite some time is the way the '97 "Victory Celebration" runs into ROTJ's end credits. I like the cue, but the transition kills it. On the album, we're presented with both cues separated by a brief silence. This preserves the 4/4 meter - "Victory Celebration" resolves on a Bb major chord on beat 3, and the next measure is the end credits, starting in Eb. This is perhaps the most musically sensible way of presenting it, but it also sounds very different from the continuous transitions heard in all the Star Wars films. Things get really weird in the film itself, where the final Bb chord of "Victory Celebration" runs right into the first Eb chord of the end credits, suggesting a 2/4 measure and producing a very weird tonality that doesn't really resolve in any satisfactory way.
What I'm wondering is...what was Williams thinking? Did he intend for there to be a pause, and then someone decided at the last minute that it'd be more consistent for the final cue to transition right into the credits? Did Williams forget that all the end credits (sans ANH) start in Eb? It's a little mind-boggling. Why didn't he just write the new cue in C minor instead of G minor? Then the final chord would have been Eb major, allowing the two cues to run continuously without the...weirdness.

Why not just write in C minor instead of G minor? That's a pretty significant difference. Transposing the music down a 5th would completely change its timbre and would probably mess with some instrument ranges, not to mention vocal ranges. I'd say Williams' best bet would have been to change the flow of the music; that is, make the Bb chord a sustained crescendo rather than a staccato hit. Or he could have done something different with the chords in the last two measures. I believe it's something like Eb for 4 beats, then F (4-3 sus) for 2 beats, then Bb on the 3rd beat? Instead of that, he could have tried Eb for 4 beats, then Bb7 for 2 beats (4-b3 sus), then Eb on the 3rd. That's not very satisfying to my ears, though.

I'll try to post some MIDI examples of what I mean. I have piano sheet music for Victory Celebration. I don't suppose the full orchestrations are around anywhere?

Maurizio · August 30, 2009

What I'm wondering is...what was Williams thinking? Did he intend for there to be a pause, and then someone decided at the last minute that it'd be more consistent for the final cue to transition right into the credits?

I guess this is the most likely scenario. The cue was trimmed down in the final mix, so it's likely Williams intended to have a small pause between the two cues, but in the dubbing stage sound mixers decided to segue it directly onto the first note of the end credits.

Henry B · August 30, 2009

It just doesn't work very well either way. As with the end credits from RotS, I'm mystified as to Williams' thinking.

Trent B · August 30, 2009

The way how "Victory Celebration" goes into the "End Credits" RCA disc is exactly how you hear it in the Special Edition in the film itself. I know I watched the film yesterday.

John Crichton · August 31, 2009

It just doesn't work very well either way. As with the end credits from RotS, I'm mystified as to Williams' thinking.

You mean...

"What were they thinking?!"

Henry B · August 31, 2009

WHAT KINDA FUCKED UP END TITLE TRANSITION IS THIS!?

Xander Harris · August 31, 2009

Yeah it never really worked too well for me either. We still need complete proper finales for most of the SW movies. BOTH the film versions of the finale/end credits from 1983 and 1997 ROTJ. The film version of the finale/end Credits of ESB. The complete Confrontation w/ Dooku and Finale, plus there's the alternate version that was canned. The film version of Augie's Parade, which SHOULD have been on the UE. Also, the complete ROTS finale/end credits. All we really have is ANH. That sucks.

Henry B · August 31, 2009

What's missing from Empire?

Trent B · August 31, 2009

What's missing from Empire?

Nothing is missing from Empire. Well the supposed alternate ending for a certain cue...can't remember which one.

BTW if you want a film version of "Finale" just edit in portion from "Yoda Raises The Ship" (aka Yoda and The Force). The film version for the End Credits for ESB I think is with the RCA set all ready if not just look at the Anthology set.

Datameister · August 31, 2009

The way how "Victory Celebration" goes into the "End Credits" RCA disc is exactly how you hear it in the Special Edition in the film itself. I know I watched the film yesterday.

Well, I watched the film today. Seriously, I double-checked to make sure I was remembering correctly before I posted this. On the RCA release, there's a momentary pause; in the film, the last chord of "Victory Celebration" plays over the first chord of the end credits. (And on a side note, I apologize for not getting back to you about that PM you sent me a few days ago. The answer is yes, but I need some time to get it all set up. Hopefully I'll be able to get that to you soon.)

Henry, you're right that it could have screwed up the timbres of the instruments. Might have been possible to make it work, but writing it differently probably would have been better. Sorry to say it, but I agree that your specific approach wouldn't be very satisfying. What if you just transpose the whole last two measures (plus pickup) up a fourth (or down a fifth)? It's not perfect, but if the voice leading is right, the transition from Gm to Ab actually isn't bad at all. Just takes some getting used to. In fact, after spending a little while playing it on piano that way and listening to an Audaciously modified version of the original recording, I actually kinda like it. If I imagine the orchestra playing it that way for real, it works.

And yes...it's as bad as the transition into the ROTS end credits. The first time I saw/heard that, my jaw dropped. He shoulda done the horn solo in F minor and started the end credits in F major, allowing for a real resolution there without changing the keys by more than a whole step. Then the trumpet run into the Rebel fanfare would have returned us to the usual key...I mean, heck, Williams raised the key of that first part of the end credits by a whole step after ANH...why not do it again?

Wojo · August 31, 2009

What's missing from Empire?
Nothing is missing from Empire. Well the supposed alternate ending for a certain cue...can't remember which one.
BTW if you want a film version of "Finale" just edit in portion from "Yoda Raises The Ship" (aka Yoda and The Force). The film version for the End Credits for ESB I think is with the RCA set all ready if not just look at the Anthology set.

It's in the Anthology set. The version of Empire's "Finale" in the RCA 2-disc set has an extended (ten seconds or so) portion of Han and Leia's Love Theme starting at 1:22 that coincides with the Falcon flying across the galaxy, which is not in the film or the Anthology set. Also, that extended portion is in all the MIDI files I found of this piece about 12 years ago, when I only had the Anthology, which made me wonder where it came from.

Bowie · August 31, 2009

I like it.

What indy4 said. Great finale chord to end a fucking 6-film orchestral symphony masterpiece. It's very appropriate. It'd be like E.T.'s final orchestral hit rolling into the Over the Moon piano solo. End Credit transitions are a nifty trick but don't quite have the same impact as a resolute final chord, in fact they make you feel like the saga continues, whereas obviously ROTJ needed to have extra "ending" feeling. The pause could have been longer, I suppose, but, that's more so Lucas's fault in not conceiving a more powerful ending shot.

Charlie Brigden · August 31, 2009

What's missing from Empire?
Nothing is missing from Empire. Well the supposed alternate ending for a certain cue...can't remember which one.
BTW if you want a film version of "Finale" just edit in portion from "Yoda Raises The Ship" (aka Yoda and The Force). The film version for the End Credits for ESB I think is with the RCA set all ready if not just look at the Anthology set.
It's in the Anthology set. The version of Empire's "Finale" in the RCA 2-disc set has an extended (ten seconds or so) portion of Han and Leia's Love Theme starting at 1:22 that coincides with the Falcon flying across the galaxy, which is not in the film or the Anthology set. Also, that extended portion is in all the MIDI files I found of this piece about 12 years ago, when I only had the Anthology, which made me wonder where it came from.

As far as I'm aware, that's the original version, I believe the film version is edited. That version, with the extra bit (which is reprised in the end title portion of the love theme) was on the original 1980 soundtrack album.

BurgaFlippinMan · August 31, 2009

It just doesn't work very well either way. As with the end credits from RotS, I'm mystified as to Williams' thinking.

Whats wrong with ROTS's?

Ollie · August 31, 2009

What's missing from Empire?
Nothing is missing from Empire. Well the supposed alternate ending for a certain cue...can't remember which one.
BTW if you want a film version of "Finale" just edit in portion from "Yoda Raises The Ship" (aka Yoda and The Force). The film version for the End Credits for ESB I think is with the RCA set all ready if not just look at the Anthology set.
It's in the Anthology set. The version of Empire's "Finale" in the RCA 2-disc set has an extended (ten seconds or so) portion of Han and Leia's Love Theme starting at 1:22 that coincides with the Falcon flying across the galaxy, which is not in the film or the Anthology set. Also, that extended portion is in all the MIDI files I found of this piece about 12 years ago, when I only had the Anthology, which made me wonder where it came from.
As far as I'm aware, that's the original version, I believe the film version is edited. That version, with the extra bit (which is reprised in the end title portion of the love theme) was on the original 1980 soundtrack album.

Correct, The Special Edition features the full cue as heard on the original LP release.

There are two cues on the Anthology which are the film versions, the Falcon's escape from Hoth and the Finale.

Wojo · August 31, 2009

Then it's to my discredit that I never heard the original LP of Empire.

Trent B · August 31, 2009

Another transition from one cue into another I noticed that's pretty bad is from "Revisiting Padme" to "Grievous Travels To Palpatine". I realize, "Revisiting Padme" is unreleased but listening to it via rear channels is just cringe worthy every time I hear it.

Datameister · August 31, 2009

I LOVE that transition! =O

BurgaFlippinMan - I don't know if Henry was referring to this, but my main problem with ROTS's end credits is the way the last chord of the film proper relates to the start of the end credits. It wants to resolve to a very different chord (G major, specifically), and when it doesn't, it loses all its effectiveness. Although I must admit I've sorta gotten used to it.

Henry B · August 31, 2009

Yeah, that's it. Also, I don't like how Williams dropped the tempo of the end titles. It sounds terrible.

Datameister · August 31, 2009

I never noticed the slow tempo of the opening of the end titles...I guess it's a bit slow...but the unused throne room material is insanely sloth-like. It's like he's trying to make up for all the times he's conducted "Theme from Jurassic Park" too quickly...

Trent B · August 31, 2009

Ya I too never really cared for the slower End Credits for ROTS. "The Throne Room" reprise shouldn't have really been with that End Credits piece either. I have edited out of my expanded set.

John Crichton · August 31, 2009

The end credits are slow, but I don't think it's that bad. Nemesis' slow end credits are much more noticeable and much worse.

I actually rejigggerd the end credits for RotS a lot for my edit. To start I took The Throne Room out and made it a bonus track. Then, since BotH in the end credits is actually the film version of the cue, I took that out and put it in that sequence in the score proper, minus the transition extentions at the start and finish, which became their own little bonus track. Then I put the BotH concert piece in from the end of the Leia's theme segment to the timani roll that starts the last part of the end credits. And let me tell you, that transition from the big finish of the BotH concert piece to the timpani roll is probably the most satisfying edit I've ever done. Overall I think it works much better than what's on the OST.

deleted account · September 1, 2009

Another thing to consider is that the temp music for the "Victory Celebration" sequence is in Gm. It may be possible that Lucasfilm simply sent JW a sequence with the new ending to Jedi and the temp music but no end titles at the end of the scene. Perhaps instructed to stick to the temp as closely as possible (which he did), did JW notice it would result in a clash if he ended on beat 1 with a Bb when the end titles start in Eb? Maybe he planned on leaving the beat of silence so the ear could adjust to the new key coming in? I seem to recall Mattesino saying that the RCA/Victor cd presented the segue the way JW intended it, and that it was edited/shortened in the movie. I suspect GL didn't care about the clash in tonality as much as getting rid of the silent beat, and made the cut for that reason.

Datameister · September 1, 2009

There's nothing to that effect in his liner notes, but I don't doubt he could have said that elsewhere. I mean, there's NO way Williams intended for it to play the way it does in the film. No sane composer would intentionally write that transition that way. The gap makes more musical sense...but I still don't like it in the context of the film.

Maurizio · September 1, 2009

Another thing to consider is that the temp music for the "Victory Celebration" sequence is in Gm. It may be possible that Lucasfilm simply sent JW a sequence with the new ending to Jedi and the temp music but no end titles at the end of the scene. Perhaps instructed to stick to the temp as closely as possible (which he did), did JW notice it would result in a clash if he ended on beat 1 with a Bb when the end titles start in Eb? Maybe he planned on leaving the beat of silence so the ear could adjust to the new key coming in? I seem to recall Mattesino saying that the RCA/Victor cd presented the segue the way JW intended it, and that it was edited/shortened in the movie. I suspect GL didn't care about the clash in tonality as much as getting rid of the silent beat, and made the cut for that reason.

That's likely the most reasonable and logic explanation. Thanks, elvisjones!

Luke Skywalker · September 1, 2009

Another thing to consider is that the temp music for the "Victory Celebration" sequence is in Gm. It may be possible that Lucasfilm simply sent JW a sequence with the new ending to Jedi and the temp music but no end titles at the end of the scene. Perhaps instructed to stick to the temp as closely as possible (which he did), did JW notice it would result in a clash if he ended on beat 1 with a Bb when the end titles start in Eb? Maybe he planned on leaving the beat of silence so the ear could adjust to the new key coming in? I seem to recall Mattesino saying that the RCA/Victor cd presented the segue the way JW intended it, and that it was edited/shortened in the movie. I suspect GL didn't care about the clash in tonality as much as getting rid of the silent beat, and made the cut for that reason.
That's likely the most reasonable and logic explanation. Thanks, elvisjones!

what is that temp track?

Also the transition from revisiting padme and grievous speaks to lord sidious kick ass. it's great. or at leat, fine.

Jay · September 1, 2009

I've always assumed that Williams wrote Victory Celebration "in a vacuum" - that is to say, without considerations for how it would flow into the existing end credits. Either because he was told it wouldn't matter, thought it wouldn't matter, or was planning on also writing new end credits but did not, who knows.

So I always figured they put the space between the cues on the album because they realized it wouldn't sound good when mixed together.... but then the film makes HAD to smoosh them together because the way the film is edited it wouldn't work right otherwise. But who knows

deleted account · September 2, 2009

You can see for yourself the temp music for the ending of ROTJ Special Edition on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqRmWI6VAtc

The music is from the documentary "500 Nations" and it's by Peter Buffet. You can get it on itunes if you want.

MissPadmé · September 2, 2009

I don't want to imagine what John Williams thought when he first heard this working tape at the spoting session....

BurgaFlippinMan · September 2, 2009

The end credits are slow, but I don't think it's that bad. Nemesis' slow end credits are much more noticeable and much worse.
I actually rejigggerd the end credits for RotS a lot for my edit. To start I took The Throne Room out and made it a bonus track. Then, since BotH in the end credits is actually the film version of the cue, I took that out and put it in that sequence in the score proper, minus the transition extentions at the start and finish, which became their own little bonus track. Then I put the BotH concert piece in from the end of the Leia's theme segment to the timani roll that starts the last part of the end credits. And let me tell you, that transition from the big finish of the BotH concert piece to the timpani roll is probably the most satisfying edit I've ever done. Overall I think it works much better than what's on the OST.

I never even noticed that BoTH in the Credits wasn't just the concert track pasted in. I don't mind the Throne Room, I was definitely pleasantly surprised when I first heard it and I fully understand why its there. Williams just wanted to give SW a big send off, nevermind that the last movie is the third movie out of 6 timeline-wise

If there's one thing that bothers me about ROTS's end credits, its that the Force theme blowout seems underpowered on album

DarthTater · September 2, 2009

What's missing from Empire?

Well, there's also an alternate version of the Finale that was actually used in the Empire radio drama that trails off and ends instead of going into any end credits. That would be a nice piece to have in a clean, dialogue-free version . To this day I wonder how in the hell Tom Voegli got his hands on that. Must have been in some film stem can or something that got conveniently "lost" when they came back to do the later extended scores of Empire later on.

Datameister · September 2, 2009

Thanks for posting the link to the temp-tracked ending! VERY interesting. Cracks me up to see all the comments that reflect a serious misunderstanding of that video. :lol:

Also...I don't like the way the original cue ended, either! I forgot to mention that. The sustained Eb chord with the end credits suddenly starting over it sounds stupid to my ear.

Ollie · September 2, 2009

I don't want to imagine what John Williams thought when he first heard this working tape at the spoting session....

The prequels are going to be awful?

:lol:

You can see for yourself the temp music for the ending of ROTJ Special Edition on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqRmWI6VAtc
The music is from the documentary "500 Nations" and it's by Peter Buffet. You can get it on itunes if you want.

I thought Williams music sounded familiar when I first heard the cue.

Luke Skywalker · September 2, 2009

as always, the williams cue is superior :lol: and definately it does not sound like indian music at all. i always thought samba or something.

btw, is the man 'stupid'

the temp video clearly states that the finale and end credits should be merged.

he got the hint that a chorus like in the old version was wanted...but not the merge...or maybe williams just did intend it to be merged regardless of the key it is played... and we are speculating pointlessly

Henry B · September 2, 2009

What's missing from Empire?
Well, there's also an alternate version of the Finale that was actually used in the Empire radio drama that trails off and ends instead of going into any end credits. That would be a nice piece to have in a clean, dialogue-free version . To this day I wonder how in the hell Tom Voegli got his hands on that. Must have been in some film stem can or something that got conveniently "lost" when they came back to do the later extended scores of Empire later on.

I feel like I've heard this piece somewhere else. Isn't it just the same cue but without the next cue (end titles) layered over the ending?

Ollie · September 2, 2009

I think that's the case. Although it was obvious while listening to the radio dramas they had access to all of Williams' material so who knows.

or maybe williams just did intend it to be merged regardless of the key it is played... and we are speculating pointlessly

I get the feeling Williams just recorded his new music and left it up to Lucas and the mixers as to how they were going to fit it in.

Datameister · September 2, 2009

Lamesauce!

Luke Skywalker · September 2, 2009

I think that's the case. Although it was obvious while listening to the radio dramas they had access to all of Williams' material so who knows.
or maybe williams just did intend it to be merged regardless of the key it is played... and we are speculating pointlessly
I get the feeling Williams just recorded his new music and left it up to Lucas and the mixers as to how they were going to fit it in.

Maybe it was his small revenge for the tracking of ESB music in ROTJ

But then... isnt it ken wannberg's work? I would think he has no hard feelings for him...

Maybe he just forgot the key the end credits were written...like han solo and the princess and other mind-splips of his...

Ollie · September 2, 2009

In all honesty the transition between Victory Celebration and End Titles doesn't bother me and the average person isn't going to tell or know the difference.

The only thing someone might say is that it feels out of place compared to the rest of the ROTJ score.

But I believe Lucas asked Williams for a new celebration piece and he obliged and left the rest to the music editors.

Datameister · September 2, 2009

the average person isn't going to tell or know the difference.

Ah, the slipperiest slope of all!

deleted account · September 3, 2009

Tom Voegli did have access to some format of expanded or complete Empire cues, because the radio show used a lot of music not heard in either the vinyl double-LP or the film itself and remained unreleased in any other way until the RCA/Victor cd in '97. And the Finale from Empire that was referred to earlier in the thread is just The Rebel Fleet cue with a clean ending (much like the end of AOTC that closes the Across The Stars music video). It's not technically an alternate cue.

By the way, someone made a dvd preservation of their 16mm print of Ep IV (or simply Star Wars as it's called then:) ) which used the mono mix of the film, and I never noticed before but in the mono mix they prelapped the cantina music over the exterior shot of Ben Luke and the robots going in, so when they cut inside instead of starting cold, the music is continuing. Interesting.

Naïve Old Fart · September 3, 2009

It just doesn't work very well either way. As with the end credits from RotS, I'm mystified as to Williams' thinking.

Williams probably wasn't thinking anything. The whole thing was probably mucked up by some not-very-good music editor.

bruckhorn · September 3, 2009

Somebody's got a problem with something involving Star Wars. We have two choices for who to blame: George Lucas and Ben Burtt.

I'm voting for Burtt on this one. Well, I can't lay The Clone Wars at his feet, can I?

How is "Victory Celebration" supposed to end?

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