Cerebral Cortex

I've seen a lot of people wishing that the old themes had been used more and then others saying that they were used quite frequently because the themes appeared in multiple moments, are present in cues X,Y,Z etc. I think what most people who wished for more usage of the old themes are saying is that they wish the themes had been more present and more involved in the musical fabric of the film. People of course may have different interpretations of how that is achieved. For me at least, that means that, for one, themes aren't just reprised briefly and verbatim and then discarded with for the rest of the cue. Yes, it's nice that Horner's theme is in there. It's neat that Elfman's Spidey and Responsibility themes are used. But if you quote them more or less directly in these very isolated ways, there's not much impact to really be had from them. Doc Ock's theme is in there, Goblin's theme is in there, but usually in these very brief statements that never fully state the theme and that never really feel like their power is fully-harnessed (the bridge fight with Ock being a bit of an exception IMO). It feels very surface-level. They're in there, they exist within the music of the film, but they don't really feel like they're woven into the score. And if you're gonna go to the trouble of having them back, why use them hardly at all? That's not to say there aren't cool variations of old themes, sure. But, I think something that goes a long ways is to have those themes actually interact with one another, not just exist in these standalone snippets. Young did this superbly in the climactic end fight of Spider-Man 3, even despite quite a few in-film edits that hack at the score. You have Sandman's theme building and then falling to make way for Spidey's theme before being interrupted by Venom's theme which transitions back to Sandman's theme into New Goblin's theme, etc. Themes play individually, sometimes together, but always in powerful and memorable ways that ebb and flow with a musical momentum that is mirrored on-screen, in addition to appearing based on who currently has the upper hand. The musical themes are an active part of the film and are working supplemental to the visuals to heighten the emotional response. They do not just appear briefly for a few seconds for mostly inconsequential impact. Some have argued that the final fight in NWH is edited in such a way that to do something similar musically for the climax would have been very messy, and I really don't think that's the case. The film if anything presents itself in a way to make such an approach easier, with villains kinda awkwardly being introduced one-by-one and never once being featured all at together. And, honestly, how great would it have been to have had all 3 Spidey themes weaving (webbing?) in and out of one another during the final fight? It's not impossible, it just takes effort and is admittedly harder. It's made all the more upsetting when Giacchino actually does this really well earlier in the film during the Strange/Spidey altercation. None of this is meant to come across as entitlement. It's Giacchino's score, he can do what he wants. He doesn't owe us anything. I think his heart was ultimately in the right place. He didn't have to bring back any of these themes, but it was cool he did and I'm happy for it. I'm more just trying to explain I think why people are disappointed with the usage of older themes from my own perspective. I also agree with the idea that, as this is Holland's film, his theme should, whether you like it or not, be front and center. But when you choose to beat us over the head with it in almost every major moment of potentially emotional consequence in the final act... ...It starts to lose its effectiveness. It becomes a Force theme/Last Jedi situation. You hear it so much that it doesn't really mean anything. And ideally a good theme allows you to forge this emotional connection to what it is the theme is representing, a connection that becomes undermined when it starts to be used for things the theme isn't meant to really represent on-screen.

Your thoughts and experience describe mine to a tee, right down to the small IMAX seats haha.

when the edible hits

Can we just take a moment to appreciate the fact that this is how Willem Dafoe showed up to the premiere? Like I can't even right now.

Love the civil discussion and exchange of thoughts. Warms me heart. ❤️

Very interesting point. You're absolutely right. As best as I can tell, this is the only thing he has tweeted about it over the last few months. Next to nothing. We got the cover art for FFH 14 days before the film dropped, information about a physical CD release 13 days before the film dropped, and track listings 12 days before the film dropped. So hopefully the ball starts rolling tomorrow for NWH?

Silvestri seems like such a humble and down to Earth guy. I almost get the impression, though with no proof to really found it, that Silvestri feels kinda sheepish about playing with themes others have written. I think he likes to pay respect to them if possible, like with the stylistic references to Strange's score like you guys mentioned above, but he doesn't feel right playing around with a musical idea somebody else came up with out of a respect for that original composer. That's why you get tracked in cues of all those themes in Endgame that are directly lifted from previous scores and not new interpretations by him.

That alone would be already better thematic continuity than 90% of what other films of this nature provide, so I still can't say I'd be disappointed if that's how it ends up going down.

I feel like there has yet to be a score for one of these huge ensemble franchise-spanning films that has really capitalized on drawing from all the previous existing themes other composers have written and having them all play off one another in an organic and cohesive way. The argument as to whether or not such an approach is really even necessary is certainly not without merits, as to create a score in such a manner runs the risk of the score itself not having a proper identity of its own. I also realize that it's partially dependent on the film itself, and whether it creates openings for themes to even be reprised. As far as the MCU is concerned, really the effort that comes closest would be Endgame, and while the effort is at least admirable, all the character themes that do return are mostly reduced to single-use cameo appearances and are heard through tracked in cues from their respective films. With this film, Giacchino really has a golden opportunity to do something that somehow really hasn't been done quite on this scale before: a film score brimming with character themes from numerous other composers that all co-exist and play off one another in an overarching soundscape. I'd be lying if I said I hope he doesn't go all out and just brings everything back, in a way that's hopefully tasteful, respectful, and fresh. There is so much potential to have a truly fun score with this film, and thankfully the composer in charge of making it happen has both a pretty decent track record with adapting themes from other composers and seems to have a small enough of an ego to not have a problem with doing so. Indeed, if Giacchino does commit with a score brimming with so many returning themes, a better point of discussion and speculation may be what new music he can even write for this film, and not what old music he can bring back.

This whole set of projects has been such a sweet comfort in the trying times we all have found ourselves in of late. Thanks so much for all the hard effort you guys have put behind these and for sharing them with the community. They are such a joy.

"The Fabelmans pushed back to June 2023"

Love the feeling that it's officially happening, that we're for sure getting more John Williams music for an Indiana Jones film. Still hasn't quite sunk in yet.

The Nazis are going to bring back Hitler!

Really cool to see Ford in costume having fun with fans. Can you tell he likes this role more than Han Solo?

Thanks for the massive dump of pics and news, @crumbs. Really starting to get excited for the flavor this film seems to be taking on. So glad that it seems like it'll visually bring some stuff that is unique to this entry. It's only just now starting to sink in that we're actually getting one more of these (and that it might actually be good!).

I 100% agree.

I've been told by a couple insiders that Williams spent much of 2020 shopping around for roles hoping to get his acting career off the ground after his critically-praised performance in TROS and didn't want his musical efforts to overshadow his acting contributions to the film.

Ford officially back on set.

I'm horrified.

She hates that I listen to him more than her.

As far as I know, it's first and only mention is by this user.

Man, nobody really does those sweeping string lines quite like Johnny. They just whisk you away on a blanket of warmth.

Given how much of a musical junction this film has the potential to be, I really can't think of anyone else I would rather have at the helm of this film's score than Giacchino. You can say what you will about the guy, but he definitely seems to have a respect for musical continuity and throwback that goes largely unrivaled in the industry, and I really hope he capitalizes on the opportunity before him.