steb74

The PC police have officially arrived... 🙄 Grow a spine. It’s a pretty common phrase; this isn’t a college safe space, it’s the real world and not everyone is going to pander to the <1% and their demands. If this was a personal attack he was making I’d understand but I mean... Come on, man. (Hope I didn’t just misgender you; I’m sure that would be an offense too, if so.)

Hi man, I've always found this to be an earlier presentation of it when Luke surrenders to Vader and acknowledges him as his father during their conversation.
 
 
and then of course later, the glorious biblical version.
 

There are probably more references throughout the score but I've never made much of a search or study on it to be honest.
The 'Father & Son' version always popped out to me though.

There's a similar figure after Yoda dies and Luke makes his way back to the X-Wing contemplating his new revelations.
 
 

Yeah it certainly looks like Leia judging by these photos -
 
 

When you have a master at long form writing and the material is contained in an individual work, ie: a movie ....yes, for me it's basically out of the question, even if done consciously or instinctively.
Don't be expecting one note up and two notes down thematic development when it comes to Williams, it goes much deeper than that.
 
Yoda's theme in Cloud City should be obvious ......the heroism of Luke's own theme has abandoned him for pretty much the majority of the movie, Ben and the force are unable to provide assistance. Luke and we as the audience need something else to help us make it through the trials ahead. After everything that Luke has gone through it's the only theme with enough weight and (force) power to give us the determination to help us push Luke on. As Luke becomes less afraid, he (and we) need Yoda's theme less and the force (theme) naturally finds its way back to him.

Yeah, her whole explanation of the force was so rushed and cheap, a terrible moment in the movie for me.
Her character just didn't have the gravitas to pull it off.

 
Star Wars bad film making? Give me a break .......needless to say, I think you're completely and laughably wrong.
I think it's an incredibly well made film and can still teach a thing or three to anyone attempting to be a film maker.

While I don't disagree and to be honest at the moment I do find the title to be a little lacking ....well, I suppose that I was expecting the middle film to have four words.
I don't recall any of the other films having titles that were difficult to digest though and none of them ever came close to being risque or offensive.
 

I don't know why I bother. 

When you have a master at long form writing and the material is contained in an individual work, ie: a movie ....yes, for me it's basically out of the question, even if done consciously or instinctively.
Don't be expecting one note up and two notes down thematic development when it comes to Williams, it goes much deeper than that.
 
Yoda's theme in Cloud City should be obvious ......the heroism of Luke's own theme has abandoned him for pretty much the majority of the movie, Ben and the force are unable to provide assistance. Luke and we as the audience need something else to help us make it through the trials ahead. After everything that Luke has gone through it's the only theme with enough weight and (force) power to give us the determination to help us push Luke on. As Luke becomes less afraid, he (and we) need Yoda's theme less and the force (theme) naturally finds its way back to him.

Sorry man, it serves myself right for trying to write something when I was in a hurry!! ha
Yeah I was kind of only talking about Luke's exploits with Yoda's theme, when he's getting shot at by Boba, etc, as a lot of people still get confused by its usage there.
I know where you mean now though and I guess similarly to what I was saying earlier, I feel as though at that point we as the audience have inherited the right to use Yoda's theme for protection and to aid us in our escape, we haven't quite earned it in the french horns or strings but its 'wonky' orchestration should be enough to see us through. I guess that's my interpretation of it.
One of the things the special edition 'stole' from the viewer was a certain level of immersion in my opinion. The added windows and the ability to see others outside trying to escape from Cloud City took away the personal feeling of actually escaping yourself with the rest of the gang.
Watching it in the cinema when it was first released made you feel like you were running behind the others and trying to escape with them, the windows became a distraction (to me at least) and reduced the feeling of being part of the team ....slight diversion sorry! ha
Yeah Han and Leia are important, absolutely but I just feel their trials and tribulations are all a part of a bigger picture and are what is happening in Luke and Vader's world/tale rather than the other way round.
Thank the maker that they're important enough to have such a theme!! ha
 
Yeah I wasn't trying to imply that you meant that regarding Ben's death sorry, it was more a comment in how most people react to it.
Leia is fundamental in how we should be reacting to Ben leaving us. We're first introduced to Leia via Ben's theme and then her own theme as she gives R2 his mission.
Little do we know at that point it's actually for Ben (the theme) or even that there is a mission. R2 however inherits that music and from there will pass it on, first to Luke, then Luke to Ben until eventually back to Leia who will be taking the place of the man whose help she sought, musically ending the idea as we were first introduced to it.
From that point when Leia is part of the gang and has replaced Ben her theme is no longer needed and is not used from that point on. That's a massive over simplification as I find it to be much more layered than that, not mentioning the other themes and motifs needed to get us there but that's more or less how it plays out for me.

I understand what you're getting at and regarding Yoda's theme over the gang so to speak, for me it's as simple as we are always meant to be in Luke's shoes.
When Leia is shouting ' ...it's a trap', etc, she's shouting it to 'us'. TESB is about 2 characters for me, Luke and Vader and the musical tapestry for that movie reflects that in my opinion. Yes at times we're quite intimate with the others but I always feel it's more of a case of us being a fly on the wall yet with Luke, we the audience are Luke.
Now I don't feel like I'm explaining well !! ha
 
As for your second paragraph .....I have to go out now (ughhh) but I'd love to chat about it as I not only believe the music used there is appropriate but it's the music that makes the most thematic sense. One thing though, Leia's theme plays 'after' Ben's death which is a massively important point to me ......uffff shit, gotta go!! lol

When you have a master at long form writing and the material is contained in an individual work, ie: a movie ....yes, for me it's basically out of the question, even if done consciously or instinctively.
Don't be expecting one note up and two notes down thematic development when it comes to Williams, it goes much deeper than that.
 
Yoda's theme in Cloud City should be obvious ......the heroism of Luke's own theme has abandoned him for pretty much the majority of the movie, Ben and the force are unable to provide assistance. Luke and we as the audience need something else to help us make it through the trials ahead. After everything that Luke has gone through it's the only theme with enough weight and (force) power to give us the determination to help us push Luke on. As Luke becomes less afraid, he (and we) need Yoda's theme less and the force (theme) naturally finds its way back to him.

Sorry man, it serves myself right for trying to write something when I was in a hurry!! ha
Yeah I was kind of only talking about Luke's exploits with Yoda's theme, when he's getting shot at by Boba, etc, as a lot of people still get confused by its usage there.
I know where you mean now though and I guess similarly to what I was saying earlier, I feel as though at that point we as the audience have inherited the right to use Yoda's theme for protection and to aid us in our escape, we haven't quite earned it in the french horns or strings but its 'wonky' orchestration should be enough to see us through. I guess that's my interpretation of it.
One of the things the special edition 'stole' from the viewer was a certain level of immersion in my opinion. The added windows and the ability to see others outside trying to escape from Cloud City took away the personal feeling of actually escaping yourself with the rest of the gang.
Watching it in the cinema when it was first released made you feel like you were running behind the others and trying to escape with them, the windows became a distraction (to me at least) and reduced the feeling of being part of the team ....slight diversion sorry! ha
Yeah Han and Leia are important, absolutely but I just feel their trials and tribulations are all a part of a bigger picture and are what is happening in Luke and Vader's world/tale rather than the other way round.
Thank the maker that they're important enough to have such a theme!! ha
 
Yeah I wasn't trying to imply that you meant that regarding Ben's death sorry, it was more a comment in how most people react to it.
Leia is fundamental in how we should be reacting to Ben leaving us. We're first introduced to Leia via Ben's theme and then her own theme as she gives R2 his mission.
Little do we know at that point it's actually for Ben (the theme) or even that there is a mission. R2 however inherits that music and from there will pass it on, first to Luke, then Luke to Ben until eventually back to Leia who will be taking the place of the man whose help she sought, musically ending the idea as we were first introduced to it.
From that point when Leia is part of the gang and has replaced Ben her theme is no longer needed and is not used from that point on. That's a massive over simplification as I find it to be much more layered than that, not mentioning the other themes and motifs needed to get us there but that's more or less how it plays out for me.

Holy crap!!  That's awesome!!!

Sorry man, it serves myself right for trying to write something when I was in a hurry!! ha
Yeah I was kind of only talking about Luke's exploits with Yoda's theme, when he's getting shot at by Boba, etc, as a lot of people still get confused by its usage there.
I know where you mean now though and I guess similarly to what I was saying earlier, I feel as though at that point we as the audience have inherited the right to use Yoda's theme for protection and to aid us in our escape, we haven't quite earned it in the french horns or strings but its 'wonky' orchestration should be enough to see us through. I guess that's my interpretation of it.
One of the things the special edition 'stole' from the viewer was a certain level of immersion in my opinion. The added windows and the ability to see others outside trying to escape from Cloud City took away the personal feeling of actually escaping yourself with the rest of the gang.
Watching it in the cinema when it was first released made you feel like you were running behind the others and trying to escape with them, the windows became a distraction (to me at least) and reduced the feeling of being part of the team ....slight diversion sorry! ha
Yeah Han and Leia are important, absolutely but I just feel their trials and tribulations are all a part of a bigger picture and are what is happening in Luke and Vader's world/tale rather than the other way round.
Thank the maker that they're important enough to have such a theme!! ha
 
Yeah I wasn't trying to imply that you meant that regarding Ben's death sorry, it was more a comment in how most people react to it.
Leia is fundamental in how we should be reacting to Ben leaving us. We're first introduced to Leia via Ben's theme and then her own theme as she gives R2 his mission.
Little do we know at that point it's actually for Ben (the theme) or even that there is a mission. R2 however inherits that music and from there will pass it on, first to Luke, then Luke to Ben until eventually back to Leia who will be taking the place of the man whose help she sought, musically ending the idea as we were first introduced to it.
From that point when Leia is part of the gang and has replaced Ben her theme is no longer needed and is not used from that point on. That's a massive over simplification as I find it to be much more layered than that, not mentioning the other themes and motifs needed to get us there but that's more or less how it plays out for me.

Wow, this thread rocks today!

Sorry man, it serves myself right for trying to write something when I was in a hurry!! ha
Yeah I was kind of only talking about Luke's exploits with Yoda's theme, when he's getting shot at by Boba, etc, as a lot of people still get confused by its usage there.
I know where you mean now though and I guess similarly to what I was saying earlier, I feel as though at that point we as the audience have inherited the right to use Yoda's theme for protection and to aid us in our escape, we haven't quite earned it in the french horns or strings but its 'wonky' orchestration should be enough to see us through. I guess that's my interpretation of it.
One of the things the special edition 'stole' from the viewer was a certain level of immersion in my opinion. The added windows and the ability to see others outside trying to escape from Cloud City took away the personal feeling of actually escaping yourself with the rest of the gang.
Watching it in the cinema when it was first released made you feel like you were running behind the others and trying to escape with them, the windows became a distraction (to me at least) and reduced the feeling of being part of the team ....slight diversion sorry! ha
Yeah Han and Leia are important, absolutely but I just feel their trials and tribulations are all a part of a bigger picture and are what is happening in Luke and Vader's world/tale rather than the other way round.
Thank the maker that they're important enough to have such a theme!! ha
 
Yeah I wasn't trying to imply that you meant that regarding Ben's death sorry, it was more a comment in how most people react to it.
Leia is fundamental in how we should be reacting to Ben leaving us. We're first introduced to Leia via Ben's theme and then her own theme as she gives R2 his mission.
Little do we know at that point it's actually for Ben (the theme) or even that there is a mission. R2 however inherits that music and from there will pass it on, first to Luke, then Luke to Ben until eventually back to Leia who will be taking the place of the man whose help she sought, musically ending the idea as we were first introduced to it.
From that point when Leia is part of the gang and has replaced Ben her theme is no longer needed and is not used from that point on. That's a massive over simplification as I find it to be much more layered than that, not mentioning the other themes and motifs needed to get us there but that's more or less how it plays out for me.

I get what you're saying and I half agree. I definitely see what you mean when you say we see that scene from Luke's perspective, especially it happens right after Luke gets his ass whooped (kind of like, "okay I'm failing, but I hope my friends are doing alright,"), but I disagree that the film's only about Luke and Vader. I think Leia and Han's relationship is very important to the film and its music, and note that after we hear Yoda's theme we shift into Han and Leia's theme.
 
 
Saying "Ben's death" was just shorthand. His actual death was of course backed by his (the Force) theme, which makes total sense. It's Luke's reaction to it (and Leia telling him they have to go) that is backed by Leia's theme, which to me also makes total sense, emotionally.

I understand what you're getting at and regarding Yoda's theme over the gang so to speak, for me it's as simple as we are always meant to be in Luke's shoes.
When Leia is shouting ' ...it's a trap', etc, she's shouting it to 'us'. TESB is about 2 characters for me, Luke and Vader and the musical tapestry for that movie reflects that in my opinion. Yes at times we're quite intimate with the others but I always feel it's more of a case of us being a fly on the wall yet with Luke, we the audience are Luke.
Now I don't feel like I'm explaining well !! ha
 
As for your second paragraph .....I have to go out now (ughhh) but I'd love to chat about it as I not only believe the music used there is appropriate but it's the music that makes the most thematic sense. One thing though, Leia's theme plays 'after' Ben's death which is a massively important point to me ......uffff shit, gotta go!! lol

That's a nice way of looking at it. I always sort of though that if the Force theme is actually Ben's theme, then Yoda's theme could be seen as sort of a second Force theme. In SW, the Force theme represents the Force as we know it, as taught by Ben. But in Empire, Yoda adds a whole other dimension to the Force through his teachings. So Luke running around Cloud City with Yoda's theme is him running around with Yoda's teaching in his back pocket (as with the unused section during the duel). The rest of the gang running around Cloud City to Yoda's theme is a bit harder to rationalize, but one could say that it's the gang falling under the very danger Yoda warned of. The usage of themes does not always have to come about through scenes directly pertaining to the theme's characters. Music is emotion and sometimes themes fit certain emotions that are related (I feel like I'm not explaining this well).
 
A good example would be the notorious usage of Leia's theme during Ben's death. In my mind Leia's theme doesn't only represent Leia. In the original film, it more generally represents romance, and not in the falling in love way, more in the romance of the adventure. So I think using the theme during Ben's death makes fine sense. Luke is swept into the romance of the quest to find Obi-Wan, the last hope, when he first sees the hologram, and Leia's theme plays. When Ben dies, he fears the adventure has died with him, that the quest has failed and the hope is lost. 

When you have a master at long form writing and the material is contained in an individual work, ie: a movie ....yes, for me it's basically out of the question, even if done consciously or instinctively.
Don't be expecting one note up and two notes down thematic development when it comes to Williams, it goes much deeper than that.
 
Yoda's theme in Cloud City should be obvious ......the heroism of Luke's own theme has abandoned him for pretty much the majority of the movie, Ben and the force are unable to provide assistance. Luke and we as the audience need something else to help us make it through the trials ahead. After everything that Luke has gone through it's the only theme with enough weight and (force) power to give us the determination to help us push Luke on. As Luke becomes less afraid, he (and we) need Yoda's theme less and the force (theme) naturally finds its way back to him.

Well said, quality post!

When you have a master at long form writing and the material is contained in an individual work, ie: a movie ....yes, for me it's basically out of the question, even if done consciously or instinctively.
Don't be expecting one note up and two notes down thematic development when it comes to Williams, it goes much deeper than that.
 
Yoda's theme in Cloud City should be obvious ......the heroism of Luke's own theme has abandoned him for pretty much the majority of the movie, Ben and the force are unable to provide assistance. Luke and we as the audience need something else to help us make it through the trials ahead. After everything that Luke has gone through it's the only theme with enough weight and (force) power to give us the determination to help us push Luke on. As Luke becomes less afraid, he (and we) need Yoda's theme less and the force (theme) naturally finds its way back to him.

I think for me it's because (imo) JW's music in these movies works in two ways, one is often quite literal and that can perhaps be the orchestration, the cold and declamatory heavy piano lines representing the walkers but secondly they're only there by command of Vader and his ground assault, to kill or capture the rebels ....but really he's only interested in Luke, which for me is what the movie is about. The cloud city versions are obviously much more grave as Vader's end game is coming to fruition, again like you say it's almost a funeral procession which does literally match what we're seeing of Han's fate but also serving the overall story as the situation for everybody is dire, or at least how it appears to us at that point. Luke confronting Vader is another perfect example, the fly to the spider ....."All too easy", Vader must be licking his lips at that point! ha