The Hobbit Film Trilogy Thread

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

I don't want to see a sudden scene of the Necromancer giving orders. That belongs in a Star Wars film, but here?

It won't be, or at least thats what the music tells us.

But then why is the track called An Ancient Enemy? Sauron has nothing to do with Thorin or the Erebor situation. Unless the Ancient Enemy refers to someone else....

Not sure, but the Thorin music is there. But if you look at the Quest of Erebor, Gandalf's ulterior motive for the entire quest was to get rid of Smaug so he wouldn't be used as a weapon by Sauron. Could they be going into all that?

Or it could be Gandalf going on about Thrain getting his ring of Power, being corrupted by it and then kidnapped by the Necromancer in Dol Goldur.

[Jay 37,373]

Not sure, but the Thorin music is there. But if you look at the Quest of Erebor, Gandalf's ulterior motive for the entire quest was to get rid of Smaug so he wouldn't be used as a weapon by Sauron. Could they be going into all that?

Wow, I betcha you're onto something there!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,373]

Well he might not tell the dwarves outright, but he could bring it up at the White Council

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

I was trying to point how An Ancient Enemy will underscore something related to Thrain and his capture, or some other dramatic facet of Thorin's past and his family legacy. Something perhaps about how Thrain was eventually captured after the end of his great glory or whatnot. The title itself would not be referring to Smaug, but rather Sauron - The Necromancer.

The more I listen to it, the more certain I am that this is flashback music, not some current scene (whether it be Necromancer shouting orders, or Gandalf exploring Dol Goldur). And I have a strong feeling it'll be about the Dwarves (with the Thorin theme and the Dwarven music and all).

As I said before, it could be Thorin telling the crew the story of his father, Thrain. How Thrain's folk fled with the map and the key. And how he eventually came across one of the Rings of Power. And how he eventually "disappeared", whisked away by an "ancient enemy".

Just a theory. Ultimately, everything in this story will be leading to Sauron as the ultimate enemy, not Smaug.

[Jay 37,373]

I think you're spot on KK

[Incanus 5,715]

I agree that An Ancient Enemy contains Dwarf music so I first thought it could well be Gandalf in Dol Guldur flashback, the music associated with both Thorin and Thráin.

But do go on. I love all this speculation.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,715]

I'll let PJ tell me what happens and then I will bitch and moan, how he screwed up things because of his film logic and need for useless plot contrivances.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[indy4 155]

There were some accusations of animal abuse during the filming of the Hobbit, allegations that Jackson and the rest strongly deny.

http://www.ibtimes.com/hobbit-director-peter-jackson-denies-animal-cruelty-accusations-peta-protests-film-full-text-893304

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[indy4 155]

Lol, I've forgotten most of my Tolkien...Dol Guldur doesn't ring a bell. From the Hobbit I just remember the barrels and Smaug. Tom Bombadil is LotR, right?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[indy4 155]

He's that super powerful guy who only holds power within his own territory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Bombadil

[KK 3,307]

The problem I have with the theory KK gave is that there are some things that wouldn't fit with what we know appears in the film.

Let's say An Ancient Enemy is indeed a flashback, telling how Gandalf got the key and map. It means that between that moment and Rivendell, there needs to appear the scene between Radgy and Gandy in the Nazgûl tomb, Radgy being forced to leave Rhosgobel and Gandy going to Dol Gûldur (in whatever order).

You silly boal! Did you read through my post? (it's right above you, you know)

The theory wasn't that the scene is Gandalf exploring Dol Goldur. I think the flashsback is Thorin's, not Gandalf's. Something about the history of the dwarves, particularly Thrain. Briefly touching on how he fled Erebor, then went mad once he got his ring of power and then he disappeared because an ancient enemy (Sauron) whisked him away.

It could be Gandalf telling the story, but it can't be the Dol Goldur flashback. That doesn't make sense. Instead, it'll focus on the dwarves and their history material.

[Incanus 5,715]

The whole film will be one long flashback guys. Of Bilbo's that is.

[Jay 37,373]

The problem is: the scene that appears i the trailers shows us that Gandalf is alone when going there (and these scenes are indeed after the Trolls scene since he has Glamdring when visiting the place). So where would the Nazgûl tomb scene, with him and Radgy finding the Morgul blade, go then? That's where we have a problem...

Film 2?

Maybe in the films, Gandalf did NOT already find out 100 years ago that The Necromancer = Sauron. Maybe he simply got the key and map from Thrain and then left.

Maybe the White Council scene in Film 1 will be them deciding that Gandalf should investigate, and he does in Film 2 when he leaves the group after Beorn. Maybe he starts exploring by himself, then finishes exploring with Radagast or something. Then maybe the expunging of Sauron from there doesn't happen until Film 3, and maybe its shown in tandem with The Battle of Five Armies

[KK 3,307]

The whole film will be one long flashback guys. Of Bilbo's that is.

Well played Greybeard, well played.

The problem is: the scene that appears i the trailers shows us that Gandalf is alone when going there (and these scenes are indeed after the Trolls scene since he has Glamdring when visiting the place). So where would the Nazgûl tomb scene, with him and Radgy finding the Morgul blade, go then? That's where we have a problem...

Film 2?

Maybe in the films, Gandalf did NOT already find out 100 years ago that The Necromancer = Sauron. Maybe he simply got the key and map from Thrain and then left.

Maybe the White Council scene in Film 1 will be them deciding that Gandalf should investigate, and he does in Film 2 when he leaves the group after Beorn. Maybe he starts exploring by himself, then finishes exploring with Radagast or something. Then maybe the expunging of Sauron from there doesn't happen until Film 3, and maybe its shown in tandem with The Battle of Five Armies

But I think they will find that the Necromancer = Sauron in this film. Considering the statement of Sauron's theme in The Hill of Sorcery, that's likely when Gandalf discovers Sauron. Then since the theme pops up again in The White Council, that's probably when the White Council discusses the presence of Sauron. So its pretty certain that Sauron's existence becomes known in this film.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

The problem I have with the theory KK gave is that there are some things that wouldn't fit with what we know appears in the film.

Let's say An Ancient Enemy is indeed a flashback, telling how Gandalf got the key and map. It means that between that moment and Rivendell, there needs to appear the scene between Radgy and Gandy in the Nazgûl tomb, Radgy being forced to leave Rhosgobel and Gandy going to Dol Gûldur (in whatever order).

You silly boal! Did you read through my post? (it's right above you, you know)

The theory wasn't that the scene is Gandalf exploring Dol Goldur. I think the flashsback is Thorin's, not Gandalf's. Something about the history of the dwarves, particularly Thrain. Briefly touching on how he fled Erebor, then went mad once he got his ring of power and then he disappeared because an ancient enemy (Sauron) whisked him away.

It could be Gandalf telling the story, but it can't be the Dol Goldur flashback. That doesn't make sense. Instead, it'll focus on the dwarves and their history material.

You silly K! If the flashback is showing Gandalf going in Dol Guldur, finding Thrain and getting the key and the map, the track title and the Dwarven material appearing in the track would both be justified!

That still doesn't make sense BloodBoal. If you listened to the music, you'd understand why. It's not just Dwarven material, Thorin's "legacy theme" (or whatever the hell it is) shows up many times in an almost melodramatic fashion. There's no way it would suit Gandalf going into Dol Goldur. It has to be something to do with Thorin/Thrain's loss a la flashback.

And what would be the point of telling Thrain's story through a flashback if we're only going to see this guy only once after that (when Gandalf will fight him)?

Not sure, but I don't think introducing the character will be the point of that scene. It'll be introducing us to the main enemy at large - Sauron. And it'll inform the audience why exactly Thorin is so bent on reclaiming the treasure (because he lost his father).

The problem is: the scene that appears i the trailers shows us that Gandalf is alone when going there (and these scenes are indeed after the Trolls scene since he has Glamdring when visiting the place). So where would the Nazgûl tomb scene, with him and Radgy finding the Morgul blade, go then? That's where we have a problem...

Film 2?

Maybe in the films, Gandalf did NOT already find out 100 years ago that The Necromancer = Sauron. Maybe he simply got the key and map from Thrain and then left.

Yes. I have already mentioned that.

I personally don't think Gandalf will even find out that Necromancer = Sauron during the The Hill Of Sorcery scene. I mean, they would reveal that in the first part of the first film? What would be the point of making a mystery if it is to reveal what it's all about an hour into the film or so. I say they will reveal it in Film 2.

I don't know...the music's screaming out Sauron in that cue. And during the White Council cue. I have a feeling they won't be trying to making Sauron's identity a big mystery.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

What can I say? You have more info than I have, since you listened to the OST, and I didn't. That doesn't necessarily means you're right, though!

We'll see about that!

About the Necromancer's true identity, it does seem to be revealed in Film 1 (since you mentioned that the Mordor theme appears quite a few times), but I find it weird and really wished they had kept that a secret until at least Film 2. (And that could have been a great opportunity for Shore to write a new theme for Sauron).

I don't want a new theme for Sauron. I want loyalty to established themes for characters. Luckily, thats what we got.

More on the Dwarf history that will be shown in the film (Thread in TORN forum)

(For your information, all the stuff they are mentioning come from the tie-in books).

This could be what An Ancient Enemy is underscoring:

Thrain and Balin lead an expedition into Moria. They encounter the balrog. Thrain is captured, Balin escapes and brings word to Thror.

Although, I'm not sure about the balrog...

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

I don't want a new theme for Sauron. I want loyalty to established themes for characters. Luckily, thats what we got.

What I meant is that he could have taken an approach a la Anakin's theme, deconstructing the theme, making it sound different, and slowly transforming it into the Mordor's theme as the story progresses., and the audience (and characters) realizes who the Necromancer is.

But such concepts seems to be too complicated for you to grasp, young fool!

Well that's not what you said you fool of a boal!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[gkgyver 1,645]

But that's what I meant (and that's what you didn't get!)!

75 pictures taken from the book The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey Chronicles, with lots of cool designs and stuff (spoiler stuff ahead, since the book was made when it was still the two films structure, so there are some stuff that will appear in The Desolation Of Smaug). No actual pictures from the films.

The Carrock!

You think Radagast's design is crazy? Look what they originally had in mind and stop complaining!

Oh wow.

I'm SO glad they reconsidered. How anyone can even consider this as an earnest design ....

Carrock looks awesome.

But enough with this useless specualtions, roll on the film!

[Incanus 5,715]

Wow so Radagast could look even more maniacally out of place than in the current film incarnation! Well done design theme, well done! Starting with the most absurd version and toning it down to a less absurd but still silly version.

Thror and Thráin look like great Dwarf kings in comparison with the Thorin "ShortBeard McShort" Oakenshield.

By Thorin's beard! Those beard designs look great! I wish they had opted for the longer more elaborate one because he looks much more authoritative and properly Dwarvish with a long beard.

That last picture is some kind of completely crazy take on Warg and Warg rider. The wolf looks relatively normal but the rider is just plain awfully and weird.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,715]

I think there should be a bit background on Gandalf/Bilbo relationship but it should not be too familiar at first. I like the whole notion of a rather famous yet distant authority figure getting the main character out on an adventure because he knows the good qualities in him. Gandalf certainly might remember Bilbo but I don't know if Bilbo should have any memories or recollections of the wizard beyond his fireworks and tales told about him.

[KK 3,307]

I think that'll be the case. Bilbo wouldn't remember him, but Gandalf would.

But again, we don't know if this scene will actually make the cut.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

I was about to say the same thing myself.

[Marian Schedenig 8,207]

But Bilbo does remember Gandalf in the book, though vaguely. And Gandalf certainly remembers him, though he hasn't seen him in years.

[Incanus 5,715]

But Bilbo does remember Gandalf in the book, though vaguely. And Gandalf certainly remembers him, though he hasn't seen him in years.

Indeed. He remembers more the stories of Gandalf and vividly remembers his fireworks but the wizard is really more of a famous person, who he has not heard of in years. A kind of has been movie star.

[Marian Schedenig 8,207]

Yes, he wouldn't recognise him without the name, but to me it's clear he still has vague memories of the wizard himself at the fireworks, just buried enough so that he wouldn't recall them by himself.

[KK 3,307]

TORN's theories on the film structure.

I don't like all this business of bringing back the dead...

[Incanus 5,715]

Some interesting speculation in the article.

[KK 3,307]

I actually like a some of the ideas they came up with and would be interested in seeing that come on screen.

But I will be very bothered by any of this "raising the dead" business if its there.

[Incanus 5,715]

Some nice ideas in there sure but also rather surprising misinterpretations like the Hill of Sorcery business. And yes this "raising dead" stuff sounds pretty contrived.

[KK 3,307]

Indeed. Not only the Dol Goldur business, but other facets of Tolkien have been grossly misinterpreted as well.

[Incanus 5,715]

The writer thinks the link between the track title The Defiler and Azog somehow obvious, when Tolkien never used such a title of the Orc. Curious. And why is the writer obsessed with bringing Azog back from the dead when Bolg is a more obvious and well reasonsed solution to having a greater Orc antagonist in the story.

OK I gave up towards the end of the description of the middle portion of the second film. Far too much speculation and too little proof to any direction. Also if even half of this turns out to be true then I will be rather dismayed.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

that gandalf scene mckellen suggested...sounds 'sleeping beauty'...

are we sure saruman and radagast did not attend?

and that sauron gave a final curse?

[Incanus 5,715]

that gandalf scene mckellen suggested...sounds 'sleeping beauty'...

Fairy godfather?

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

i edited my previous post.

it fits!

[Incanus 5,715]

Or perhaps:

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[gkgyver 1,645]

Sir Ian on Gandalf's return.

Look, he's mentioning another flashback scene, as if we didn't have enough flashbacks already!

Sir Ian says during the film's development has been forthcoming with Jackson and his co-writers Fran Walsh and Philippa Boyens. For one, he felt that the relationship between Gandalf and Bilbo needed a little history.

He suggested a scene showing the wizard being introduced to a baby Bilbo and his mother Belladonna Took and it was shot. He's not sure if the scene will make the final cut of The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey, but his suggestion was taken seriously.

''We see Gandalf observing this little boy who's full of beans and full of adventure. And I let him play with [a] toy dragon that I've got.

''And when he's thinking, 'Who should we get? Oh, there's that little boy'. And he goes back to Hobbiton to meet this little boy who's now grown up and is a real stodgy, dull, settled, unadventurous person. And he's so disappointed. 'What happened to you? Come on! You've got to go on an adventure, it'll be good for you. Get back your childish enthusiasm!'''

Part of me likes the idea, part of me thinks it all sounds a bit cliché, and another part of me wonders where the fuck that scene could go...

This is sounds really awful. I HOPE it's not in the film.

However, if you listen to "My Dear Frodo", at 1:35 you hear this Shire variation with the triangle, that could really be that moment

when we see baby Bilbo.

And then, right after that, as the music becomes more epic and slightly threatening

it could be when Gandalf gives him the toy dragon, and we cut to the backstory of Smaug taking Erebor.

The more I think about it, the more it makes sense.