Do you ever wish JW would orchestrate certain orchestra sections like other film scorers do?

[Quintus 5,399]

Just been listening to John Barry's Dances With Wolves and apart from the fact that its a sublime score, I noticed yet again his gorgeous strings orchestration. Nobody (in the film world) does soothing strings quite like like JB. Listening to his style makes me wish Williams would give it a try - when appropriate. Don't get me wrong, I love JW's unashamed use of almost bombastic strings, but wouldn't it be nice to hear him try something a little more... subtle in that area?

Schindlers List and the like don't count, because material like that was always going to be deliberately subtle. To an extent.

[Luke Skywalker 1,798]

Schindlers List and the like don't count, because material like that was always going to be deliberately subtle.

????

Dances with wolves is neither an action movie...

[Morlock 11]

What?!?!?!?! Never, not in a million years. John Williams is by far the best orchestrator in the business. John Barry always sounds like John Barry, and very often, that is not a good thing (although the above mentioned score is certainly a notable exception).

[Quintus 5,399]

I think you guys may be missing my point. I'm not comparing orchestration skills between the two composers, but merely suggesting that JB writes for strings in a way that doesn't shout out, like those of Williams.

[Morlock 11]

Again-What?!?!?!?!?!?John Barry's strings shout out more than anyone else's.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I'm forced to agree with Morlock.

John Barry is a superiour melodist, probably one of the best the film score world has ever known, with a knack of writing themes and melodies that stay with you for a long time.

Orchestration has always been a weak point of his though, he's incredibly repetative at times, not only in a single score, but even in a single cue.

[Quintus 5,399]

Again-What?!?!?!?!?!?John Barry's strings shout out more than anyone else's.

Okay fair enough. I hear something you cleary do not. Never mind.

[King Mark 3,631]

Anyways I could find a lot of cues where Williams uses full lush strings (to a higher emotionnal level than Barry IMO),not just solos like in Schindler's List.

Here's some:

Anakin's Theme

Theme from Jurassic Park

Fawkes the Phoenix

Harry's Wondrous World

Back to America(Angelas Ashes)

A New Beginning (Minority Report)

Regaining a Son(Seven Years in Tibet)

A Prayer for Peace (Munich)

Buckbeaks Flight

Anakin's Betrayal

Yoda and the Force

E.T. is Dying (film version)

Sections of Saying Goodbye ( E.T.)

End Title from Jaws 2

Many cues from Born on the Fourth of July

actually ,he doesn't do it THAT often for full cues like Barry,but little moment pop up here and there,like The Norwigian Ridgeback and A Change of Seasons in HPPS.All his love themes (Marion's Theme,Han Solo and the Princess,Leia's Theme...) all have full sting sections and score moments,and The Force Theme is often played in full strings.

K.M.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Arlington. Best string writing I've heard in a film score.

[Morlock 11]

What about the title track from Born on the Fourth of July? Pure string power!

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

You people call Schindler's List...subtle?

[Marian Schedenig 8,224]

Soothing strings? Jane Eyre?

[John Crichton 4]

Do you ever wish JW would orchestrate certain orchestra sections like other film scorers do?

...Any reason why I should?

[Red 75]

Angela's Ashes. Possibly Williams' best string writing ever.

[Eric_JWFAN 11]

John Barry is a superiour melodist, probably one of the best the film score world has ever known, with a knack of writing themes and melodies that stay with you for a long time.

Barry is clearly not superior to Williams as a melodist. Some of his tunes might be catchier, but that's because he writes simple phrases that are very easy to understand and sing to. They are usually diatonic, clearly played by the string section, usually in a simple 4/4 meter, and there's almost no borrowed chords or any non-functional harmony going on. Both his melodies and orchestration lack, how do I put this, they lack UMMMPPPHHHH. That, and originality. His music very frequently sounds like the Mantovani Orchestra (shudders). He's good at what he does, but just not in Williams' league.

Put it this way, judging from the 20-25 scores I've heard from Barry, he is completely incapable of composing something like the Star Wars overture. Or let me clarify... He is capable of writing the melody itself, but not all the magic that takes place beneath it.

That's not a knock on Barry really, because I can't think of any working composer in Hollywood who can either.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

So musical embellishments and the quantity of layers of music running concurrently dictate superiority?

And here I was thinking if music sounds good, then it must be good. Silly me.

[Ollie 1,059]

And here I was thinking if music sounds good, then it must be good. Silly me.

If it sounds good it is good.

Frankly I've always thought Williams' string writing was one of his strong points. Although Barry can also write some lovely string pieces.

[King Mark 3,631]

Put it this way, judging from the 20-25 scores I've heard from Barry, he is completely incapable of composing something like the Star Wars overture. Or let me clarify... He is capable of writing the melody itself, but not all the magic that takes place beneath it.

I dunno,something like "Overture" from The Black Hole comes close.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Williams' string writing is what makes him Williams. If I wanted John Barry I would listen to John Barry, who also has amazing string writing talent.

[King Mark 3,631]

I think Williams string writing is more emotionnal and Barry more has a "wall of sound " effect.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

"Wall of sound?"

[Quintus 5,399]

Frankly I've always thought Williams' string writing was one of his strong points.

I totally agree, I am a huge fan of his after all. What I'm trying to communicate is that he pretty much always (where themes are concerned) writes his strings in a manner which I can only call unabashedly romantic. Big grand, almost epic sweeps of emotion - Marions Theme, anything in Star Wars, especially Across The Stars. Now I'm not saying I don't like that style, in fact I adore it, but sometimes I wish he would hold back a little, ease off on the building layers before the climatic crash of percussion he (and I) loves so much. Just for a change, in a big film. I say big films, because that is what I love him for, as do most. Angela's Ashes may indeed have some lovely strings stuff in there, but only the die-hards know about it.

I'm no die-hard, but a mere fan of JW.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

I think Williams string writing is more emotionnal and Barry more has a "wall of sound " effect.

Yes! Barry tends to fill the spectrum, range-wise. He will have cellos and basses playing a bare 5th down at the bottom end, while having chords and melody in the upper strings, quite some distance apart. This distance between the parts creates the wall-of-sound effect. This is especially noticable in the theme from Out of Africa. The bare 5th in the low strings seems to make a piece unmistakably Barry.

[HPFAN_2 0]

I think Williams has the ability to write subtle strings and pull it off. Because he has. However it's not his style. Williams' is very romantic so his string will be no different. However I think it's unfair to wish he do something else since he has and has done it well. Williams' orchestrates like no other. Only a few I can think of can orchestrate kinda like him.

[Morlock 11]

People can certainly immitate his sound...but I think what separates Williams from other film composers is orchestration.

[Marcus 390]

People can certainly immitate his sound...but I think what separates Williams from other film composers is orchestration.

I would also add harmony, counterpoint, melodic construction and structure.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Structure's been the same for almost 20 years now.

[gkgyver 1,646]

film scorers

Who are you, Clint Eastwood?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Barry is clearly not superior to Williams as a melodist.

I don't believe I stated that Barry is better in this then Williams, the 2 composers are so different that I don't really compare them.

I do believe though that Barry's succes as a thematic and melodic writer is that he writes easy, hummable themes.

And there is not a damn thing wrong with that.

[Morlock 11]

My problem often is that his themes are pretty the first time around, but there's very little there that I feel I should come back to. It's immidiatly rewarding, but, aside from some of his Bond scores, I rarely find myself listening to Barry.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Same here.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

Barry=

[gkgyver 1,646]

Are you insane?

I've yet to hear a more romantic score than Out Of Africa, Dance With The Wolves or Bond scores like OHMSS.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

You people call Schindler's List...subtle?

Actually the main title is very subtle. It's a simple self-contained melody presented in a fairly detached manner. It never rises to a dramatic climax, or deliberately drops to a subito piano. As such the music itself is quite UNemotional, (as opposed, say, to Arlington, or Williams' constantly-changing leitmotif themes). The result, however, is a highly emotional response in the listener based purely on the beauty of the music juxtaposed with the horrendous imagery onscreen. That is IMO a very subtle use of music to create an incredibly strong emotional response in the listener.

[Eric_JWFAN 11]

I don't believe I stated that Barry is better in this then Williams

Sorry I thought you were using the word "superiour" in a comparative manner.

John Barry is a superiour melodist

[Morlock 11]

Same here.

I second Stefan.

[HPFAN_2 0]

I find Goldsmith's and Williams' action pretty similar in some respect............yeah I said it so what?

[Morlock 11]

Well, the depends in what respects you'r talking about. They....both generally feature an orchestra. That's basically where the similarity ends.

Morlock- who doesn't think someone stating their uninformed opinion is anything new or special on JWFan

[HPFAN_2 0]

Morlock- who doesn't think someone stating their uninformed opinion is anything new or special on JWFan

Neither is belittlement or elitism.

[Morlock 11]

You post something that has no basis in reality without explaining why you think it is right, and hide behind the fact that it's an opinion. If you have something to say, please say it. If you were just looking for someone to disagree with you, well, you found that somebody.

Morlock- who is not prone to elitism (Stefan, Joe- please feel free to add whatever comment you like about how I have nothing to be elitist about ), but makes an exception in some specific cases

[HPFAN_2 0]

You post something that has no basis in reality without explaining why you think it is right,

Then ask me. If you are interested.

If you have something to say, please say it.

I did.

Morlock- who is not prone to elitism but makes an exception in some specific cases

This is neither new or special on Jwfan.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Well?

Could you elaborate then?

Because I really don't buy it.

[Red 75]

Elitism is one of the worst diseases this board has.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Then ask me. If you are interested.

You make a bold claim, you back it up. It's understood. Otherwise it's called trolling or being an attention whore.

Elitism is one of the worst diseases this board has.

No it's not...people make silly childish posts and then take offense when they are criticized for it.

[Morlock 11]

We don't seem to agree on much recently, but- well put.

[Ollie 1,059]

The only similarity Goldsmith and Williams ever displayed was the time Jerry quoted a few seconds of Williams' Superman score in Supergirl.

[HPFAN_2 0]

Then ask me. If you are interested.

You make a bold claim, you back it up. It's understood. Otherwise it's called trolling or being an attention whore.

Elitism is one of the worst diseases this board has.

No it's not...people make silly childish posts and then take offense when they are criticized for it.

Criticize and dismissing as irrelevant and unimportant art two different things.

The similarities I see are few and far between and minuscule at best. And it's their irregular rhythms. As in The Hunt from Lost World and Goldsmith's The Scorpion, Let's Get out of Here, and The Big Jump.

Now criticize my opinion, it's your right, however it is classless and immature to belittle it.

[Morlock 11]

Oh please. The fun of the board is people discussing their opinions. Now that you've explained yours, there's room for conversation. You just posted something that without any explanation is just a mark of someone who doesn't know what he's talking about it. While that may be your method for posting, you should be aware that if you are posting inflamatory things without properly explaining them, they will be taken how they were given- uninformed and attention-seeking. If you want to talk, talk.

[HPFAN_2 0]

While that may be your method for posting.

It is.

[Red 75]

Can't we all just get along?