Rosenman's LOTR is better than Shore's.

[Jeshopk 8]

Shore's own Soul of the Ultimate Nation sounds better, musically, than LOTR. LOTR is musically unremarkable. I believe it is only popular because of the movies and the books. It is good music, but not even as good as The Patriot.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

It is good music, but not even as good as The Patriot.

And that statement makes you.......an Amoeba™.

Oh and clearly I'm a Klingon®.

[Henry B 50]

Maybe it has nothing to do with the argument, but I can't take Marcus seriously here because of his unyielding faithfulness to John Williams. I can't recall any instance that Marcus has ever doubted his idol's judgment or musicianship in anyway. It says to me that he's closed-minded and irrational. Sure enough, the absolutist statement that nothing in Lord of the Rings appeals to him at all doesn't make any sense. Even if I were presented with twelve hours of rap music, I could find phrases or chord progressions here and there that I liked. Marcus doesn't seem to think like that. It's all or nothing. And, yeah, he is being condescending by stating in terms of "truth" that Rings is "pedestrian" and "of lesser quality." Marcus, where have you been studying composition? I hope that they haven't been teaching you that all music can be evaluated in quality objectively.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

John Williams is not divine?

[indy4 155]

Even if I were presented with twelve hours of rap music, I could find phrases or chord progressions here and there that I liked.

Let's not go THAT far.

[Marcus 390]

Maybe it has nothing to do with the argument, but I can't take Marcus seriously here because of his unyielding faithfulness to John Williams. I can't recall any instance that Marcus has ever doubted his idol's judgment or musicianship in anyway. It says to me that he's closed-minded and irrational. Sure enough, the absolutist statement that nothing in Lord of the Rings appeals to him at all doesn't make any sense. Even if I were presented with twelve hours of rap music, I could find phrases or chord progressions here and there that I liked. Marcus doesn't seem to think like that. It's all or nothing. And, yeah, he is being condescending by stating in terms of "truth" that Rings is "pedestrian" and "of lesser quality." Marcus, where have you been studying composition? I hope that they haven't been teaching you that all music can be evaluated in quality objectively.

I did my Bachelor at the Norwegian Academy of Music in Oslo, and my Master's at Manhattan School of Music, studying with Richard Danielpour, and also privately with John Corigliano.

There's no accounting for taste, but I believe craft can be evaluated fairly objectively. (I hope that doesn't sound too cynical or elitist; I would be the first to agree there's more to art than craft. Yet I am somehow saddened by music that is badly written, that is sloppy in execution. Music deserves better, I tend to feel.)

I am unyieldingly faithful to craftsmanship and artistry that I deeply respect and admire. I cannot answer whether or not this makes me closed-minded, but I would like to think not. I hope not, anyway.

Of course one can always find moments in any music that are appealing, viewed separately. But I am at a loss to see how great a point that really proves...

[Henry B 50]

I think there is no objectivity in craft, and I am curious as to what your criteria for good craftsmanship are. In fact, I think that the only way for craft to be measured is to measure the commitment and effort of the composer, and that's impossible to do, of course.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

But what if effort and commitment don't lead to a good product?

Isn't it ultimatly the end result that counts?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

But what if effort and commitment don't lead to a good product?

Isn't it ultimatly the end result that counts?

Yes, yes it is.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

We can cut a composer some slack if he was under time pressure, like Goldsmith was in Star Trek First Contact, or Horner with Aliens. But in the end FC is not as good as TMP, and Aliens is not as good as The Wrath Of Khan.

[Henry B 50]

But what if effort and commitment don't lead to a good product?

Isn't it ultimatly the end result that counts?

Actually, the end result is what you make of it. I have a somewhat hippy-like notion that effort always improves a product. As Mr. Ollivander says, you can do "great things... terrible, yes, but great!"

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Oh no doubt effort improves a product.

But Marcus and those like him seem to believe that there is an end all way to put effort into something like writing music.

It's either the classical way or the highway.

And that's a puritanically narrow view anyway you cut it.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I agree.

[gkgyver 1,645]

I really don't want to force any more people here to turn against me (if possible), but to me, a relatively unimportant cue in LOTR, like "Arwen's Fate", has a more unique quality and ring than at least half of Revenge Of The Sith.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Lord of the Rings takes me to another universe. It's so unique that I associate that music only with Lord of the Rings. That alone makes it a masterpiece.

No Star Wars score since The Phantom Menace has done that to me.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The Phantom Menace didn't do that to me either.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Either way, there's no need to single out Marcus in this debate.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Why not?

We are just responding to what he is posting. He's a big boy. I'm sure he doesn't need you to stand up for him.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Steef is right.

Hey, if you make invective posts, be ready to stand by them.

I mean come on how many times have I gone down commiting political suicide on this forum by saying Jerry Goldsmith is better than John Williams? Or saying this score is better than that?

Even then Marc was a mommy figure.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

While Marcus does seem quite capable of defending himself, the last few posts have come across to me as a group jumping on one poster.

Whether you agree or not, at least Marcus puts some thought in his posts.

- Marc, who will leave it at that.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Even then Marc was a mommy figure.

Look, Mr. Moderator, sir....I diversified!

I've singled you out!

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Well, everyone should be allowed a folly or two.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Especially me.....

[gkgyver 1,645]

"It cannot be done. It is folly!"

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I have seen your mind, YOU WOULD DELIVER US TO HORNER!

[gkgyver 1,645]

Even the smallest person can change the course of the future.

[Red 75]

But not Newman.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Well, he's hardly the smallest person.

[Jeshopk 8]

We're a diverse group here...more diverse by the day. I think the way someone appreciates film music has something to do with their appreciation of the music. Many people need a very dramatic and well-acted story to improve the music. Many people don't need cues from a film to interpret the power of the music itself. I don't think either way is wrong, but I belong to the camp that can cry to beautiful music for a terrible film, not the group that can cry to average music for a great film.

[Marcus 390]

I think there is no objectivity in craft, and I am curious as to what your criteria for good craftsmanship are. In fact, I think that the only way for craft to be measured is to measure the commitment and effort of the composer, and that's impossible to do, of course.

Well, I would have to disagree.

I think one can clearly hear if a composer has a brilliant, good, mediocre or shoddy understanding of harmony, or of counterpoint and linear writing, melodic writing, orchestration, etc., and also to an extent the maturity of these different qualities.

It is usually easy to hear if a piece was written by a young or a senior composer, or by an expert or merely an adequate composer, etc.

Writing music is a skill, not only a matter of inspiration.

Being a professional, serious practitioner of any art is always a matter of work, and not only the effort (which is only of value and merit in as much as to the extent it translates to the finished work), but the results of these efforts, the expertise gained from sustained laboring and pondering.

Putting it plainly, you either can write a double fugue or you can't.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Marcus when you write at Howard Shore's calibre, I may consider agreeing with your holier-than-thou assesments.

But I do have to comment on one thing:

Writing music is a skill,

A skill is a skill, anyone can practice and perfect any technique, but few can actually make it art.

[Marcus 390]

Marcus when you write at Howard Shore's calibre, I may consider agreeing with your holier-than-thou assesments.

A skill is a skill, anyone can practice and perfect any technique, but few can actually make it an art form.

Oh dear, you've got me trapped in a sense:

You are in fact asking me this: Do I think that I am a better composer than Howard Shore? And of course, by answering yes, I will appear to completely live up to the role seemingly assigned to me by you and a few other posters here, as an elitist arrogant snob.

Should I risk it, then? And finally reveal an ego of the size that some have suggested?

Very well. I shall venture this:

Do I think that anything I've heard of Shore's music is beyond my capabilities as a composer? NO.

Do I think that what I write is of a higher calibre? That depends on how one judges calibre, I suppose.

I think most good concert composers I know are far better composers than Howard Shore. But their music is not heard by a similarily large audience, and is not apprecitated by as many as film music can be.

And of course, Shore's scores are dear to so many who have bonded with them and been touched by them, and who am I to insult them by stating that I find them unimpressive and boring?

Who am I to say that I don't think Howard Shore is a great composer? (And unfortunately, I really, really don't. There is nothing in his LotR scores that I would have been proud to have written.)

To all of you fans of Shore's LotR Scores: I salute you! I think it's wonderful that you care so much about them!

Your appreciation is ultimately much more important than my lack of interest. And I really, sincerely and completely mean that.

(Oh, and Blumenkohl, what, if any, of my music have you heard?)

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

(Oh, and Blumenkohl, what, if any, of my music have you heard?)

Your work for the Zodiac Trio...

And your work from your past life as a guitarist.

[AI 0]

Well I don't know about that dude. Marcus music is much more sophisticated on a musical level, than Howard Shore.

From The two pieces by Marcus I have heard, I was impressed.

I don't like the LOTR music at all, its just not vibing with me. I do like Shore's scores for Seven and Panic Room. But having said that, I think Marcus could equal or better it.

[David Coscina 3]

I'm going to side with Marcus here even though I am a huge Shore fan. The way I see it, Shore is a by-product of the film revolution. He is, in film terms, an outstanding composer. His music gets under the film's skin and probes the sub-text of the narratives. His music doesn't have to encompass the traditional methodology of composition because the music is but a part of the art of film making, not the absolute focus. I think Shore's whole compositional evolution has revolved around this and as such he's often sought out because of his thoughtfulness towards the film medium.

In many ways, John Williams was NOT a good film composer in the '70s if you think about it. His music almost ran counterpoint to what it needed to do- it was often right in your face, had little regard for the onscreen action, and was operatic in its tone and scope. Williams has admitted more than once to not being an avid film lover and concentrated solely on the art of composition (his Berkeley seminar reveals this). So I don't have a problem admitting the Williams, at least in the '70s and '80s was an inferior film composer to Shore, Goldsmith, and a few other composers.

HOWEVER, in purely musical terms, Williams stands apart from everyone else who is currently living, breathing and is a film composer. Why?

One- he uses traditional tools methods to compose. Sorry guys but if you're writing for orchestra, this is the tried and true way to do it. It's like brain surgery. There are correct ways to do it and incorrect. And those who contend this point have never had 80 musicians (or even 20 as in my case) play your work. You learn a lot about HOW to write for live musicians. and of all approaches, this is still the most effective way.

Two- he doesn't love film and concentrates on music technique. I know Shore also does things the old-fashioned way but his harmonic and melodic realm is severely dwarfed by Williams. I have been listening to Eatern Promises and it's a bit of a mono-thematic score. Which is fine if your theme is already developed and intriguing. I'm still trying to decide if Shore's is or not. The theme is built on a tradic harmonic scheme (very indicitive of Shore's general harmonic realm) although the violin part is really just playing a minor 6th descending arpeggiation. If it was the spring board to a more evolved or involved theme, like say, Schindler's List, than it would be okay. But it's not. And its recurrence in no overtlty modified form makes for a tedious listening experience after a while. Williams might not vary his thematic material as much but it's because it's already pretty involved. I also contend that Shore thinks in smaller compositional chunks to variation is more easily attainable. If you tried to de-construct something like Jazz Autographs, well, it's pretty bloody hard because it's steeped in harmonic extensions and chromaticism.

I don't doubt Marcus has greater compositional chops than Shore. I know plenty of composer friends that do. But I don't know that many composers who know who to score a film as effectively. that's what makes Shore a hot commodity.

I for one like his LOTR scores. And Big is beautiful, especially the final track. The Aviator is probably my favorite score of his but it isn't as contrapuntally adept as Williams' stuff. To me, I enjoy it and respect the composer. Shore to me is like John Barry. Writes a lot of whole notes, stays within a certain harmonic realm and likes to write to the mood or the undercurrent of a scene rather than literally Mickey-Mouse it. I've heard musicians joke around about playing a John Barry score because it's pretty easy to read through. Which again is fine because it's not a contest for how many notes a score can have. The end goal is how the music affects the film. in both Barry's and Shore's cases, they do a fine job.

[gkgyver 1,645]

I see a guy who claims under the same pressure he can produce an opus of the same textural density, the same thematic complexity, the same storytelling quality, the same choral splendor as Howard Shore's LotR.

And unless by some tragical twist of fate he gets to prove this, that statement remains one gargantuan, disturbing pile of egomaniacal horse poo.

[David Coscina 3]

I see a guy who claims under the same pressure he can produce an opus of the same textural density, the same thematic complexity, the same storytelling quality, the same choral splendor as Howard Shore's LotR.

And unless by some tragical twist of fate he gets to prove this, that statement remains one gargantuan, disturbing pile of egomaniacal horse poo.

I'm not sure why this upsets you so much- composers vary in their skill level. That doesn't invalidate your enjoyment of them though. Mahler was thought to be a hack at the time he was writing and was later revealed to be a genius and a fundamental influence on 20th Century Modernism. What is to say that Marcus is not in the same boat?

Shore doesn't write complex music in my experience of having studied and dissected music from Bach to Bartok. That doesn't mean he isn't a fine composer in his own right. I still love his music and respect his abilities for what they are.

[publicist 4,643]

The really interesting question is then if Marcus' LOTR would rock the world the same way as Shores version did.

I'm certain it won't be hard to top the complexity of the writing, but else?

I said it and i say it again, f...ck them all and bring the long cut of the films in a Delorean to Jerry Goldsmith in 1980. Give him 3 years, and you've got the best score trilogy ever made.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Well, it's upsetting simply because he's got the nerve to say that LotR is nothing he couldn't conceive without having the faintest justification to say this. He may write own music, but I severely doubt any of it was for a project of LotR proportions.

And he fails to see that three bars with seven notes can say alot more than three bars with seventeen notes. To witness in Monica's Theme from A.I. or, let's see, maybe Jaws?

Bruce Broughton once said about Bernard Herrman that "he didn't seem to write much". Well, he may have written only two notes, but they were the RIGHT two notes.

I don't think anyone ever said that Howard Shore's LotR was superior to Williams' scores, purely musically, but the way it connects with picture and audience is far and beyond anything Williams or anyone else for that matter came up with in recent memory.

The only scores I can see that may be on par are Edward Scissorhands, Schindler's List, and possibly Jurassic Park.

[Marcus 390]

The really interesting question is then if Marcus' LOTR would rock the world the same way as Shores version did.I'm certain it won't be hard to top the complexity of the writing, but else?I said it and i say it again, f...ck them all and bring the long cut of the films in a Delorean to Jerry Goldsmith in 1980. Give him 3 years, and you've got the best score trilogy ever made.

Indeed.

A Goldsmith-scored LotR trilogy would have been something beautiful and profound, and sadly also what Goldsmith would have deserved so very, very much!

Best trilogy ever made, I don't kow, but an infinitely better series of scores than the present ones, undoubtedly.

Although I would hope he would have jettisoned his synth-happy early 80's inclinations, and opted for an "Arts&Crafts" score, a William Morris-esque pre-raphaelite sonic tapestry as detailed and symbolistically glorious as a Böcklin painting, or as beautifully austere as Alan Lee's illustrations!Let it not merely be fantasy, but deeply, mythically epic!

Well, it's upsetting simply because he's got the nerve to say that LotR is nothing he couldn't conceive without having the faintest justification to say this. He may write own music, but I severely doubt any of it was for a project of LotR proportions. And he fails to see that three bars with seven notes can say alot more than three bars with seventeen notes. To witness in Monica's Theme from A.I. or, let's see, maybe Jaws?Bruce Broughton once said about Bernard Herrman that "he didn't seem to write much". Well, he may have written only two notes, but they were the RIGHT two notes.I don't think anyone ever said that Howard Shore's LotR was superior to Williams' scores, purely musically, but the way it connects with picture and audience is far and beyond anything Williams or anyone else for that matter came up with in recent memory.The only scores I can see that may be on par are Edward Scissorhands, Schindler's List, and possibly Jurassic Park.

My precice qualm with Shore's music is really that they aren't "the right notes"!

To me, his scores are bland and fairly generic (as well as musically unsatisfactory).

No, I haven't scored a 6-8 hour film trilogy, and do not know if such an opportunity will ever present itself.

On the other hand, I write mostly for the concert hall. But the kind of architecture and musical interest demanded by that field somehow frequently dwarves what is at least most commonly offered for films (I personally would love nothing more than to see more composers show greater artistic depth and ambition also in terms of film scoring!).

I have written a 40 minute symphony, and a 90 minute opera. That proves absolutely nothing as far as my ability or inability to score an epic film series.

But then again, I have never meant to argue solely on behalf of my own abilities (believe it or not: Even my conceitedness has its limitations ),but on behalf of musical standards, and what I perceive to be a gradual lowering of them by the film music community in general.

[AI 0]

I like Marcus.

I like him a lot.

Marcus, if I was gay, would you marry me?

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

I like Marcus.

I like him a lot.

Marcus, if I was gay, would you marry me?

but, arent you a woman?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

but on behalf of musical standards, and what I perceive to be a gradual lowering of them

What you call a lowering of musical standards is the result of thousands of years of musical evolution. But you seem to have the misconception that just because it is boring to you, that it is a lowering of standards.

Need I remind you that your own qualms with scores like that of Lord of the Rings were levied by the elitist classical community more times than can be counted in the past 40 years against your own precious Williams. Williams' work was nothing more than hackneyed garbage.

Fast forward to September 2007....and well...we can clearly see the cycle continues.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Need I remind you that your own qualms with scores like that of Lord of the Rings were levied by the elitist classical community more times than can be counted in the past 40 years against your own precious Williams. Williams' work was nothing more than hackneyed garbage.

I dont what to think what they think of nowadays film scoring

[Marcus 390]

but on behalf of musical standards, and what I perceive to be a gradual lowering of them

What you call a lowering of musical standards is the result of thousands of years of musical evolution. But you seem to have the misconception that just because it is boring to you, that it is a lowering of standards.

Need I remind you that your own qualms with scores like that of Lord of the Rings were levied by the elitist classical community more times than can be counted in the past 40 years against your own precious Williams. Williams' work was nothing more than hackneyed garbage.

Fast forward to September 2007....and well...we can clearly see the cycle continues.

It isn't just that it is boring, but also that it is poorly written.

Which Williams' music isn't.

The "elitist classical community" as you label it, may be guilty of snobbism, and have often unjustly been contemptuous and dismissive towards great composers who happened to have served media that were seen as second class.

But Williams' work is, viewed from the vantage point of musical craft, equal in quality to that of many of the greatest 20th century composers, and superior to many more, and this is why he is in fact held in increasingly high esteem also in the "classical" world (hey, ask Kurt Masur, Yo-Yo Ma, John Corigliano, Seiji Ozawa, Leonard Slatkin, Itzhak Perlman, Placido Domingo, Barbara Bonney, or countless of the other prominent members of that community that he has worked with).

That many dismissed his work on "Star Wars" back in the day was hardly surprising: Williams hadn't yet established his "sound" in the ears of the a general audience, and subsquently, the models that at times shine through quite radiantly were seen as more prominent than they would be today, when it is easier to see how that particular score works in the context of Williams' larger ouvre (we hear what it led to, not only what led to it).

But don't forget that John Williams was also always a composer of concert music, and has a whole other side to his ouvre than does Shore, and indeed most other contemporary film composers.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

But don't forget that John Williams was also always a composer of concert music, and has a whole other side to his ouvre than does Shore, and indeed most other contemporary film composers.

So?

[Marcus 390]

I like Marcus. I like him a lot.Marcus, if I was gay, would you marry me?

Why, thank you and likewise!

Now, if only I went that way, and weren't already engaged to a beautiful woman...

But don't forget that John Williams was also always a composer of concert music, and has a whole other side to his ouvre than does Shore, and indeed most other contemporary film composers.

So?

So the quality of his writing, and his overall musical awareness benefits from it, and adds depth and brilliance to his work?

[gkgyver 1,645]

You are aware of the Fly opera, aren't you?

And SUN was basically a concert work. And so are alot of pieces from LotR.

[Red 75]

Has The Fly opera been completed yet?

[gkgyver 1,645]

I would think so. Howard Shore said he was doing final touches on it, and that was several months ago.