Rosenman's LOTR is better than Shore's.

[John Crichton 4]

I LOVE THE SCORES TO THE PIRATES OF THE CARIBBEAN TRILOGY!

Them's fightin' words!

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

"Hi, my name is indy4 and I'm a Hans Zimmer fan."

He's taking the first steps towards getting help!

Ray Barnsbury

[indy4 155]

[King Mark 3,631]

Don't even get me started on PotC

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Honestly, I ultimately like and respect the opinions and indeed the "blind" people themselves too much to actually fight with them.

For instance, yes King Mark's opinions can suck, but I mean, I look forward to each and every one. Or Luke is totally annoying, mainly because his logical reasoning is questionable at best, but man this place would be boring without him making some absurd connection between my defending Hans Zimmer and my opinion of Astrophysics.

hey thanks!...

my defending Hans Zimmer and my opinion of Astrophysics.

Mars by Holst Rules. Gladiator doesnt.

Anyway, i think that my logical reason sounds like that because i cannot translate well what i want to say (they dont teach to joke in school...), and the Spanish humour is different.

I'm not insane

Anyway, i think that most filmscore fans would agree with me that liking Media Ventures denotes more blindness than liking (or even 'worshipping') John Williams.

BTW, i think you just earned another hornerised signature Stay tuned...

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

The fact that I talk to hornists and bloody percussionists alike

Pardon me?

[Quintus 5,399]

The fact that I talk to hornists and bloody percussionists alike

Pardon me?

God knows mate! I think I was a little merry at the time of typing

In fact the next day I read through some of the posts I'd made the previous night and I cringed at the sight of one or two. I honestly couldn't remember saying half the stuff I'd apparently said! Oh well.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Anyway, i think that my logical reason sounds like that because i cannot translate well what i want to say (they dont teach to joke in school...), and the Spanish humour is different.

Oh I know! Your English is better than most English-as-original language people. I'm just playing around with you.

And for what it's worth, I chuckle at your humor, though despite all my travels sometimes my American mind can't tell when it's humor or when it's serious .

Anyway, i think that most filmscore fans would agree with me that liking Media Ventures denotes more blindness than liking (or even 'worshipping') John Williams.

I don't like Media Ventures. I like Hans Zimmer.

And I think that's like having a blindfold on! Not being blind!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I must agree with Blumenkohl that the level of English displayed by the Spaniards here is outstanding.

Especially when considering all of their TV channels and movies are dubbed, and it doesn't seem to be taught widespread at schools.

They are better then us!

[Quintus 5,399]

I don't like Media Ventures. I like Hans Zimmer.

Aye.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I can agree with that sentiment.

[Admiral Holdo 16]

As has been argued elsewhere, most prominently in this thread's title, Rosenman's LotR is musically superior to Shore's more modest efforts.

Let's see... that was the sarcastic statement I made for sensationalistic purposes, wasn't it?

[Marcus 390]

As has been argued elsewhere, most prominently in this thread's title, Rosenman's LotR is musically superior to Shore's more modest efforts.

Let's see... that was the sarcastic statement I made for sensationalistic purposes, wasn't it?

Indeed. As a non-sarcastic statement, it is thoroughly more truthful, however.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

I don't like Media Ventures. I like Hans Zimmer.

nice then, i'll remember that . That just ruins the signature i had in mind

it doesn't seem to be taught widespread at schools.

English is obligatory as 1st foreign language in most schools since the 80s - 90s. Before that (my parent generation and beyond) it was french. Sadly most students are not interested in studing english.

I think i have had the luck of having good teachers too Honorable mentions to the SW novels, videogames and of course the forums here

[Morn 8]

Just kidding?

But Rosenman's LOTR is better! It's got great musicianship and originality. Rosenman is a skilled composer.

Not so say Shore's is not an impressive effort.

[Vaderbait1 1]

This is going to sound very unintellectual, but my problem with Shore's scores is that they sound...fake. They sound like they're trying to be epic, but they're not. I don' tknow if this is the instruments used, the size of the orchestra, the writing, or what, but it just doesn't seem like a truly great series of scores.

Though his themes are nice, they are not the types of themes that can be heard over and over without getting sick of them.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Howard Shore's style has an inherent subtlety that prevents his scores from being too epic, I like that.

If I think about false emotions and false epicness (is that a word?), I think of a sound like Hans Zimmer's.

Anyone can get sick of any music. I would think this is more a matter of personal preference than a matter of any particular composer's way of writing.

[Marcus 390]

This is going to sound very unintellectual, but my problem with Shore's scores is that they sound...fake. They sound like they're trying to be epic, but they're not. I don' tknow if this is the instruments used, the size of the orchestra, the writing, or what, but it just doesn't seem like a truly great series of scores.

Though his themes are nice, they are not the types of themes that can be heard over and over without getting sick of them.

AHA!

Great post!

Exactly! you have felt precisely what plagues these scores: They pretend to be epic, symphonic, grand, but they aren't!

Kudos to you and your instincts!

They are "fake", in as much as Shore's inability to musically match his own ambitions.

They are musical props; pompous banalities with little substance, sorely lacking in architectural depth. The harmonic language is that of early 80's "epic" synth music, where a few secondary mediants, a tritone progression or two, etc., is used to superficially add a flavor of grandeur, of mystery and wonder.

This is the essence of kitsch.

Thank you for your important post!

[gkgyver 1,645]

They are musical props; pompous banalities with little substance, sorely lacking in architectural depth.

I'm sorry, but you don't have a clue what you're actually talking about.

That is the essence of rubbish.

Thank you for your revealing post!

[Quintus 5,399]

This is going to sound very unintellectual, but my problem with Shore's scores is that they sound...fake. They sound like they're trying to be epic, but they're not. I don' tknow if this is the instruments used, the size of the orchestra, the writing, or what, but it just doesn't seem like a truly great series of scores.

See this is where it all boils down to personal opinion again. To me, Shore's Lotr work is the very definintion of "EPIC" in every shape and form. What you call "fake", I call majestic, grand and at times - downright biblical in scale, or rather the feeling of scale.

I won't even bother to roll off more than ten moments in the work that measure up to my definition of epic.

Besides, it wouldn't do if we all agreed would it.

[Marcus 390]

They are musical props; pompous banalities with little substance, sorely lacking in architectural depth.

I'm sorry, but you don't have a clue what you're actually talking about.

That is the essence of rubbish.

Thank you for your revealing post!

Believe me, I wish I were wrong, and that I would one day wake up and find that Shore's scores are magnificent

.

And fot that matter, that MV steadily produces great music; that all is well in the kingdom of film music, and no standards have been lowered...

But alas...

Now, there is a chance that my arguments seem nonsensical to a non-musician; I am expressing my absent awe of these scores from a musical point of view foremostly, although I also have some qualms with Shore's dramatic sensitivity at times.

And yes, I realize that they are very "structured", and leitmotivically consistent (though I could care less when the motifs themselves are of such a mundane, pedestrian quality), but the musical texture, the "fabric entire" of the scores is rather too simplistic, superficial and dull. For my ears, at least.

But you have all the right in the world to love them. I wish I could, too.

But I simply can't.

[Delorean90 42]

This is going to sound very unintellectual, but my problem with Shore's scores is that they sound...fake. They sound like they're trying to be epic, but they're not. I don' tknow if this is the instruments used, the size of the orchestra, the writing, or what, but it just doesn't seem like a truly great series of scores.

Though his themes are nice, they are not the types of themes that can be heard over and over without getting sick of them.

AHA!

Great post!

Exactly! you have felt precisely what plagues these scores: They pretend to be epic, symphonic, grand, but they aren't!

Kudos to you and your instincts!

They are "fake", in as much as Shore's inability to musically match his own ambitions.

They are musical props; pompous banalities with little substance, sorely lacking in architectural depth. The harmonic language is that of early 80's "epic" synth music, where a few secondary mediants, a tritone progression or two, etc., is used to superficially add a flavor of grandeur, of mystery and wonder.

This is the essence of kitsch.

Thank you for your important post!

Erm...I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. No offense, but it seems like you're throwing around a lot of statements without much detail or, better yet, examples. If you could point out a few, it might help me see what you're hearing.

Personally, I don't see how you couldn't enjoy at least the Shire music--I mean, do you like any of it? "Flight to the Ford," "The Bridge of Khazad-Dum," "The Breaking of the Fellowship"..."Concerning Hobbits"? Anything?

[Marcus 390]

This is going to sound very unintellectual, but my problem with Shore's scores is that they sound...fake. They sound like they're trying to be epic, but they're not. I don' tknow if this is the instruments used, the size of the orchestra, the writing, or what, but it just doesn't seem like a truly great series of scores.

Though his themes are nice, they are not the types of themes that can be heard over and over without getting sick of them.

AHA!

Great post!

Exactly! you have felt precisely what plagues these scores: They pretend to be epic, symphonic, grand, but they aren't!

Kudos to you and your instincts!

They are "fake", in as much as Shore's inability to musically match his own ambitions.

They are musical props; pompous banalities with little substance, sorely lacking in architectural depth. The harmonic language is that of early 80's "epic" synth music, where a few secondary mediants, a tritone progression or two, etc., is used to superficially add a flavor of grandeur, of mystery and wonder.

This is the essence of kitsch.

Thank you for your important post!

Erm...I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. No offense, but it seems like you're throwing around a lot of statements without much detail or, better yet, examples. If you could point out a few, it might help me see what you're hearing.

Personally, I don't see how you couldn't enjoy at least the Shire music--I mean, do you like any of it? "Flight to the Ford," "The Bridge of Khazad-Dum," "The Breaking of the Fellowship"..."Concerning Hobbits"? Anything?

Unfortunately, nothing of Shore's efforts appeals to me. I think it is empty and hollow, and let me then try to explain how:

First, the material itself: I think the motifs, the melodies, etc. are banal, trite, clumsily constructed (especially the hobbit music!), and far too generic. I don't think he really captures the essence of what he is portraying (except, perhaps the theme for the ring itself), nor do I find the material satisfying on a purely musical level. I find Shore's harmonic language extremely limited, and very clichéd, and the orchestrations are amateurish.

The score: I think the scores are nothing but slow moving chords, with little episodes of thematic material. Let me sort of illustrate (fictitious example):

Abmin----Fmin---Dbmin----Dmin(Nazgul motif, perhaps followed by Mordor music on the same drone)---Bbmaj(tin whistle plays one of the hobbit themes)---(same music continues, chords change Ebmaj---Gmin)---C min (Isengard 5/4).

There's virtually no counterpoint in the entire score series, and virtually no linear writing, just chords, chords, chords, and more chords.

Shore sort of sounds like Enya. The textures are "pop textures", just harmony and melody, and a rhythmic riff here and there.

What I mean by kitsch, is that which pretends to be something it isn't; it alludes to greater things, of greater quality, with greater depth.

Any clearer?

[Quintus 5,399]

I dunno, my ears hear a big fuck off orchestra playing some fantastic music with many splendid themes.

Any clearer?

Now, there is a chance that my arguments seem nonsensical to a non-musician

That's a rather patronising remark and I suspect you know it. Music is music. People have valid opinions of the medium regardless of any technical intricacies involved in its design.

[Marcus 390]

...And I never meant to be patronizing, or condescending in any way.

But I do suppose that arguments founded in musical cognizance, in a musically "articulate" domain, might at times seem less poignant, less interesting, and perhaps even less valid to those who elect to discuss music in other ways, with a less musically specific terminology.

Also, certain aspects of music will present themselves differently to trained musicians than to others, very much the same way everything else does.

To the initiate, other truths, and other aspects of a single truth, are known.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Just to clarify things: where do you rank John Barry's music? Howard Shore is in my eyes a darker, more disturbing version of John Barry.

[Quintus 5,399]

To the initiate, other truths, and other aspects of a single truth, are known.

Well the only truth my ear understands is the sort that tells my emotional heart and mind that Howard Shore wrote a masterpiece when he scored Lotr. In fact the way the music touches me personally only further confirms (to me) that within that score lies a sizable amount of truth which much be respected and then reckoned with.

There is a whole lot more to musical truth than meets a technician's eye my friend.

I think I understand both sides of the coin, or argument. I guess I'm suprisingly lucky in that regard.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

There is a whole lot more to musical truth than meets a technician's eye my friend.

I don't think Marcus really understand music, he can study and analyse it, but can he really feel it?

[Marcus 390]

Oh, for crying out loud...

This is not about the cynical, cold technician versus the feeling, emotional human being!

I'm simply not moved by Shore's music, and I find his music second class, if that!

If Shore tugs at your heartstrings, hey, that's real swell, but for me, it is just too light fare to even get a reaction.

I am a deeply sentimental, if not downright sappy, person, who likes nothing better than to be moved to tears.

But only music of truly great quality can do that to me, music written by great composers.

You know, like Shostakovich, Bach, Ravel, Mozart, Walton, Prokofiev, Williams, etc.

Shore a darker version of Barry?

More like a darker version of Enya.

And Stefan,

It is very, very easy to have an informed opinion about me: Why don't you just check out my music?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

And Stefan,

It is very, very easy to have an informed opinion about me: Why don't you just check out my music?

Why?

[Marcus 390]

And Stefan,

It is very, very easy to have an informed opinion about me: Why don't you just check out my music?

Why?

To better judge whether or not I "understand" music, perhaps?

To see if your theory about my seemingly cold, analytical disposition holds up to scrutiny?

To actually have your words (and opinions) carry weight?

[gkgyver 1,645]

But only music of truly great quality can do that to me, music written by great composers.

I'm sure you're no stranger to the word "ego".

Marcus is the perfect example of how studying music can make you an elitist of the most negative sort.

And you still didn't answer my question.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

There you go again, assuming that to understand music, you must be able to compose, or play it.

If I were to listen to your music and like it, would that automatically mean that your comments become more meaningfull?

No.

Composers should compose music, not talk about it.....

That's our job.

[gkgyver 1,645]

I mean, I also read and write music, and I fully realise that by technical standards, Howard Shore's music doesn't reach the contrapuntal madness of John Williams, but that doesn't stop me from thinking of LotR as the best of the past 50 years.

Why? Simply because the music talks to me like no other, and stirs up emotions I've never felt before.

I'll stop now, before it gets sexual ...

[Marcus 390]

But only music of truly great quality can do that to me, music written by great composers.

I'm sure you're no stranger to the word "ego".

Marcus is the perfect example of how studying music can make you an elitist of the most negative sort.

And you still didn't answer my question.

Elitist? It depends on what you mean by it, I suppose...

I believe in quality, craft, beauty and truth, and I believe we should search for these qualities, in ourselves and in others.

I believe we should all strive to become the best that we possibly can, and I believe we all owe it to ourselves to believe that we can do better.

Ego?

I believe in humility as an absolute prerequisite for achieving anything great in art.

Part of humility is the respect for that which is truly, deeply great. And for me, part of that respect is to be discerning, and to also recognize that which is is of lesser quality.

But please note that I would love nothing more than to appreciate a piece of music, regardless of its composer. To love and understand the world and its content is any individual's deepest desire, and this holds true also for me.

John Barry?

I think he has written some very good scores.

And I think he is a much, much better composer than Howard Shore.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

But you believe in "quality" and the ability to discern it, which in itself isn't that humble if you abstract it a little. Real humility would be to admit any piece of art as valid by itself, and considering that it's you who doesn't enjoy the piece's "objectives". Otherwise, you're no different from a kid claiming that Casablanca sucked because it was in black and white and it bored you as hell.

Or you can do what I do, and simply state that you lack humility at all.

[Delorean90 42]

Unfortunately, nothing of Shore's efforts appeals to me. I think it is empty and hollow, and let me then try to explain how:

First, the material itself: I think the motifs, the melodies, etc. are banal, trite, clumsily constructed (especially the hobbit music!), and far too generic. I don't think he really captures the essence of what he is portraying (except, perhaps the theme for the ring itself), nor do I find the material satisfying on a purely musical level. I find Shore's harmonic language extremely limited, and very clichéd, and the orchestrations are amateurish.

The score: I think the scores are nothing but slow moving chords, with little episodes of thematic material. Let me sort of illustrate (fictitious example):

Abmin----Fmin---Dbmin----Dmin(Nazgul motif, perhaps followed by Mordor music on the same drone)---Bbmaj(tin whistle plays one of the hobbit themes)---(same music continues, chords change Ebmaj---Gmin)---C min (Isengard 5/4).

There's virtually no counterpoint in the entire score series, and virtually no linear writing, just chords, chords, chords, and more chords.

Shore sort of sounds like Enya. The textures are "pop textures", just harmony and melody, and a rhythmic riff here and there.

What I mean by kitsch, is that which pretends to be something it isn't; it alludes to greater things, of greater quality, with greater depth.

Any clearer?

Okay, to an extent I think I’m starting get a better idea of what you’re talking about—some of it may be what held me back a bit when I first heard clips of FOTR. But it’s a different kind of setting and feel from the Williamsesque scoring/writing. It’s less contemporary sounding. The only things I liked from clips were “The Black Rider” and the Fellowship theme. It seemed kind of dry to me. The first thing that really drew me in was when I saw part of the movie for the first time: when Gandalf rides to Orthanc, that dark statement of the Fellowship theme. I heard that and I was thinking, “Wait…maybe there is something to this.” From there, the more I listened to it, the more I liked it. My Dad was actually the same way. At first he didn’t go for it so much, and then one time we were listening to it and we got to talking about that and he said, “It kind of grows on you, doesn’t it?” I mean, I used to skip over the Lothlorien music—I thought it was more boring. But, particularly once I got the Complete Recordings, I started to like it more, and now it’s some of my favorite material from Fellowship.

I don’t know what to tell you as far as not liking the Hobbit music, etc. However, some of the above my help you with some of the underscore. I find the themes to be pretty good overall, with the biggest standouts for me being the Fellowship theme, the Shire theme, the Pity of Gollum theme, and the History of the Ring theme.

I do find the action music particularly could be more fluid at times, but again, part of that is the fact that it's going less contemporary in its approach, and even so, there's quite a bit of good action music, the battles in The Two Towers for instance.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Shore's LotR almost always transcends the scenes the music was written for, it's lightyears away from even the faintest mickey-mousing, and that gives the music a sense of cohesion that I didn't hear anywhere else yet.

John Barry?

I think he has written some very good scores.

And I think he is a much, much better composer than Howard Shore.

I'm very curious how you're going to explain why Barry is a better composer than Howard Shore. By the same rules you applied to Shore, Barry's music, like "Gumbold's Safe Break" should bore the hell out of you.

[scissorhands 16]

Marcus isn't either patronizing nor elitist. He's trying to keep as objective as possible in this regard. He provides more arguments than anyone else in this forum, whilst the others' replies only resort to the so-called taste.

This said, I agree with him about Shore (particularly about his LOTR scores, as I haven't listened to many of his other works). I feel the whole trilogy is a chain of long chords, one after another, rather simple dissonances when he wants to create tension, with its respective crescendo, and a lot of piano subitos when he wants to generate calm (oh yes, legatos and ethnic voices can help in that task), with thousands of little plain motifs (I don't care how much they're interconnected between each other, if the source material isn't good enough).

Very good point in that comparisson with the 80's synth harmonic style, Marcus.

Well, I'm not very versed in the Rings trilogy (I identify more with Rosenman's), so please don't kill me.

[Quintus 5,399]

ARGH! I just spent a good fifteen minutes typing up a reply to both you and Marcus but something went wrong when I previewed my post and I lost the lot. Now I'm mighty pissed off and have nothing else to say on the matter

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Marcus isn't either patronizing nor elitist. He's trying to keep as objective as possible in this regard. He provides more arguments than anyone else in this forum, whilst the others' replies only resort to the so-called taste.

I think it's a dynamic based on friction: arguments vs. taste. One could endlessly point out many arguments why the original Star Wars score sucks because each minute of it sounds like a dozen different classical composers, and "only music of truly great originality can do that to me, music written by great composers", not a 40 year-old Hollywood guy.

But in the end, all it matters is that it works as a whole, that it achieves its artistic objectives. Sure, the Lord of the Rings scores may not be the pinnacle of orchestral composition for many reasons, but haven't they convinced thousands of people around the world, and make them enjoy themselves for a few hours? If it succeeds at that through musically simplistic methods, what is there to complain about (even from a musical point of view)?

It sounds to me like you are dissing Harry Potter for not being Kafka

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

I think it's a dynamic based on friction: arguments vs. taste. One could endlessly point out many arguments why the original Star Wars score sucks because each minute of it sounds like a dozen different classical composers, and "only music of truly great originality can do that to me, music written by great composers", not a 40 year-old Hollywood guy.

If anyone thinks that...well i dont want to know what they think about Horner's 'Land Before Time'....

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Marcus isn't either patronizing nor elitist. He's trying to keep as objective as possible in this regard. He provides more arguments than anyone else in this forum, whilst the others' replies only resort to the so-called taste.

True.

I still love LotR, though.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Damn straight!

[King Mark 3,631]

To me Shore's LotR =Horner's Braveheart=Poledouris' Conan the Barbarian .Same slo-mo excruciatingly boring pace .

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Conan slow?

You gotta be kiddin' me?

[King Mark 3,631]

I really tried to get into it.It seems like the same music going on and on for an hour

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Have you started drinking again?

[Red 75]

You thought Braveheart was slow?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Marcus is neither patronizing nor elitist.

He's just a damn Green Blooded™ Vulcan®. Or an Android®.