The action writing of Crystal Skull

[Delorean90 42]

@ Marian: I don't think so. How do you explain the quality of Heartbeeps with that kind of thinking?

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

Its the 80's.

Nothing more to be said....

[Quintus 5,399]

It's funny how fast and hard this score and film sunk to the back of my mind. I was all atwitter in anticipation, then I participated in the dialogue when it came out. And now...I've completely forgotten about it.

For better or worse (and I'd lean towards worse), this was a totally forgettable movie and a completely forgettable score. It's a shame really.

Damn, you said it all really.

As Dr E. Brown once said: Damn (where's that film)? Damn (where's that score)? Damn damn.

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

@ Marian: I don't think so. How do you explain the quality of Heartbeeps with that kind of thinking?

Oh, I wouldn't say Williams was never inspired by lesser movies. Also (never having seen Heartbeeps), I can't judge whether it's just a bad movie (or if it actually is, but everyone says so :cool: ) but still has some (somewhat) redeeming features. As I've said elsewhere, a really bad movie can still have ideas, images or concept that inspire a composer, even if the film itself isn't worth anything. I believe Goldsmith scored many films of that type, be it intentionally or not, and that's why he wrote so many excellent scores that were "too good" for their films.

But really, part of what makes KOTCS a not so good movie is that there really doesn't seem to be much in it for a to composer to draw inspiration from. Take AOTC, it's not a good movie, but it's got this huge (poorly handled) love story, and I'd say Across the Stars (Joe will disagree) shows how Williams was inspired by that.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

It doesn't fit.

Marion's theme doesn't sound like Star Wars.

Honestly, I daresay that had the two themes came out for each others movies instead back in the day, no one would be complaining now.

[Delorean90 42]

@ Marian: I don't think so. How do you explain the quality of Heartbeeps with that kind of thinking?

Oh, I wouldn't say Williams was never inspired by lesser movies. Also (never having seen Heartbeeps), I can't judge whether it's just a bad movie (or if it actually is, but everyone says so ) but still has some (somewhat) redeeming features. As I've said elsewhere, a really bad movie can still have ideas, images or concept that inspire a composer, even if the film itself isn't worth anything. I believe Goldsmith scored many films of that type, be it intentionally or not, and that's why he wrote so many excellent scores that were "too good" for their films.

But really, part of what makes KOTCS a not so good movie is that there really doesn't seem to be much in it for a to composer to draw inspiration from. Take AOTC, it's not a good movie, but it's got this huge (poorly handled) love story, and I'd say Across the Stars (Joe will disagree) shows how Williams was inspired by that.

Okay, that makes sense. I don't necessarily agree, but I see where you're coming from better.

[Salacius 7]

I actually did like the score. It wasn't awesome but had some great moments.

The sweet recording of Raiders March with a considerable effort to create a sound that is close to the original.

Call of the crystal I found very haunting. The adventures of Mutt is very accomplished. Fun, fast and with loads of attention being put into the writing. I feel JW did step up the counterpoint and orchestration here.

Irina's Theme is gorgeous. Something only a master like Williams could write. Can't stop listening to it.

Then I have to jump to Jungle Chase. I have to say this is the loudest I heard Williams' music in a very long time.

One thing I would say is that he returned to more rousing brass arrangements. After he worked with The Boston Pops he changed his orchestrational style.

He has held the power of the brass (especially the trumpets) resulting IMO in lesser powerful almost watery scores. This has been a personal problem of mine as a JW fan for many years. I am glad to see the classic JW dynamics come back again.

And that's that for that score. That's all I like from it but what I like I like a lot.

[crocodile 8,020]

But really, part of what makes KOTCS a not so good movie is that there really doesn't seem to be much in it for a to composer to draw inspiration from. Take AOTC, it's not a good movie, but it's got this huge (poorly handled) love story, and I'd say Across the Stars (Joe will disagree) shows how Williams was inspired by that.

Maybe things like Sky Captain or works by Brian Tyler or John Debney, with everyone playing all at once and as loud as possible, make sound scores like KOTCS thin and unexciting in comparison? After all ROTJ seems uninspired as well and (almost) nobody says it's a bad score.

Karol

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

I haven't heard Sky Captain, was thorougly unimpressed by what little Tyler I've head so far, and am among those who find CutThroat Island (the only Debney I have) highly enjoyable but also too much bombast to rate it a great score. The only Shearmur I have, Reign of Fire suffers from that even more (so much that I don't remember a single not of it, and never found it interesting at all). I'd put ID4 (which here seems to be generally ranked ridiculously high like CutThroat Island) in the same category, along with (to a lesser extent) Stargate.

In short: I don't think those scores are why I find KOTCS unexciting.

I listened to it again yesterday, and realised why I find much of the action writing so empty: It often sounds like nothing but glorified mickey mousing. I like a little mickey mousing now and again (I find it gets too bad a reputation these days, when done well - like Williams generally used to - it's wonderful), but there seems to be nothing else here. And I still say that endless scales are NOT swashbuckling, even if Williams was inspired by Korngold, and barely constitute a theme.

It's not a *bad* score. It's just not a particularly exciting one, especially for an Indy movie. The big set pieces seem to have gotten the least interesting music.

[John Crichton 4]

After all ROTJ seems uninspired as well and (almost) nobody says it's a bad score.

Because it's not. The first half is a bit up and down (but with some brilliant cues), but the last 40 minutes or so is as great as it gets.

[Ollie 1,059]

There is nothing wrong with the score to ROTJ. Given the quality of the film Williams did an outstanding job.

[crocodile 8,020]

After all ROTJ seems uninspired as well and (almost) nobody says it's a bad score.

Because it's not. The first half is a bit up and down (but with some brilliant cues), but the last 40 minutes or so is as great as it gets.

40 minutes of great music (out of 150) doesn't sound like great score to me.

There is nothing wrong with the score to ROTJ. Given the quality of the film Williams did an outstanding job.

Did he? Much of the action cues from the end are as chaotic and disjointed as The Jungle Chase. I know it's the film's fault, but it is the same with KOTCS The only thing truly memorable from the climax of ROTJ is the first two minutes of Battle for Endor I. The Forest Battle is even more silly than The Adventures of Mutt. I recall only one pretty good setpiece (the alternate Sail Barge Assault), which wasn't used in the film. None of the themes are really classic or aren't used nearly enough (Luke and Leia is twice in the picture?). The first half and hour consists mostly of gloomy underscore (not unlike much of KOTCS). The rest wouldn't be recognised as Star Wars if not for a occasional statement of familiar themes. I'm not trying to start bashing a favourite classic, but I want you guys to have a little perspective. KOTCS is not as bad in comparison as you make it out to be.

Karol

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

crocodile, u fail to mention The Dark Side Beckons for one....

[John Crichton 4]

After all ROTJ seems uninspired as well and (almost) nobody says it's a bad score.

Because it's not. The first half is a bit up and down (but with some brilliant cues), but the last 40 minutes or so is as great as it gets.

40 minutes of great music (out of 150) doesn't sound like great score to me.

Well, you didn't say is wasn't a great score. You said it was a bad score. And, if you'd care to notice, I said there were some brillant cues in the first half, so we're talking more than 40 minutes here.

[Jeshopk 8]

It's very good action music, and I love driving to it. Whirl Through Academie is great and I love the Alma Mater music in there for Brody (we remember his little secret handshake from Last Crusade). I also love the whole Obelisk track, and the action music preceding it on that track.The "awakening" of the disk is also quite wonderful, and finally we hear Williams in his "Soundings" mode on film. The whole soundtrack has a great balance between action and texture. The texture rivals Raiders, and I don't find a single track to be boring.

[crocodile 8,020]

Same here.

Well, you didn't say is wasn't a great score. You said it was a bad score.

I didn't say anything like that. What I meant was that there is a lot of people who dislike KOTCS for certain reasons and yet ROTJ has similar problems and few people actually hate it.

Is that clear now?

And yes, BurgaFlippinMan, this cue is great. But that wasn't my point.

Karol - enjoying both KOTCS and ROTJ.

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

I like KOTCS, but withouth trying to compare it to ROTJ, I would i would say that ROTJ has no problems

It contains every major theme in one way or another.

And Leia's is used twice, or thrice, but then Leia is also part of 'Luke and Leia' and 'Han Solo and the Princess'.

[crocodile 8,020]

I was talking about Luke and Leia theme. It's used only twice in the film.

Karol

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

I was talking about Luke and Leia theme. It's used only twice in the film.

Karol

I though you meant Luke's and Leia's, my bad.

Its basically music for a specific scene, when he reveal their family bond. They only reunite during the celebration so the theme has not many opportunities to appear.

Now, i'm dissapointed williams didnt use it at their birth on EPIII.

[crocodile 8,020]

Me too. It's great.

Karol

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

Me too. It's great.

It's not great, it's a crime!

I suppose you meant the theme is great, I agree

[publicist 4,643]

How is the unreleased part of 'Jungle Chase' musically? Theme-driven or more of the chaotic xylophone variety? Couldn't they have left of the boring filler stuff from the second half of the album (at the very least one of those tracks) to offer this one substantial loud track?

Questions over questions....

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

How is the unreleased part of 'Jungle Chase' musically? Theme-driven or more of the chaotic xylophone variety? Couldn't they have left of the boring filler stuff from the second half of the album (at the very least one of those tracks) to offer this one substantial loud track?

Questions over questions....

theme driven i would say. two statements of marions theme, one of Indy, one of the russians and one of irina that i can remember.

And the first 45 seconds of The Jungle Chase.

Movie or OST?

Because OST's is irina's theme + modern Williams action music...

[John Crichton 4]

Well, you didn't say is wasn't a great score. You said it was a bad score.

I didn't say anything like that. What I meant was that there is a lot of people who dislike KOTCS for certain reasons and yet ROTJ has similar problems and few people actually hate it.

Is that clear now?

OK, then maybe I misinterpreted your original comment. My apologies. But "uninspired" is not a word I'd use for RotJ.

Now, i'm dissapointed williams didnt use it at their birth on EPIII.

I thought we'd settled this. The Luke and Leia theme represents their relationship. In RotS, they don't have a relationship. They're babies, and immediately seperated. They don't meet until ANH, so having that theme in RotS would have been totally inappropriate. Good call by Williams.

That or he just doesn't remember the theme at all.

[indy4 155]

I listened to it again yesterday, and realised why I find much of the action writing so empty: It often sounds like nothing but glorified mickey mousing. I like a little mickey mousing now and again (I find it gets too bad a reputation these days, when done well - like Williams generally used to - it's wonderful), but there seems to be nothing else here.

In "Whirl" there's a lot of mickey mousing, with many of the short trumpet blasts occuring right as Indy kicks somebody or punches them (0:27), but I love it. I think it makes an already enjoyable scene even better. Other than that, I don't there's any other mickey mousing within the score, at least not during the action parts.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Agh, so much criticism of Irina's Theme! I have to stress again how good a theme I think it is, especially as a short, catchy signal for her character (the first seven notes are a great hook). It's sultry and menacing, and is developed well throughout the score, being given a particularly great workout in "Jungle Chase." That's not to say it's on par with Williams' classic themes of yore, but I think it services the film really well.

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

Now, i'm dissapointed williams didnt use it at their birth on EPIII.

I thought we'd settled this. The Luke and Leia theme represents their relationship. In RotS, they don't have a relationship. They're babies, and immediately seperated. They don't meet until ANH, so having that theme in RotS would have been totally inappropriate. Good call by Williams.

That or he just doesn't remember the theme at all.

I suppose that the stands for a joke, but just in case: The theme can also score their bond, a bond that was broken in ROTS, where it should have a ppeared, and then re-discovered in ROTJ. It would have been nice.

Luke and Leia for the birth.

Leias theme for alderann's scenes

Luke's theme for tatooine.

[crocodile 8,020]

Any such interpretation doesn't change the fact that a great theme was wasted. Pity.

OK, then maybe I misinterpreted your original comment. My apologies. But "uninspired" is not a word I'd use for RotJ.

That's ok.

"Uninspired" doesn't necesarilly that JW didn't care. It may be the simple fact that the film didn't give him much do to. There is only a handful of scens where the music is more prominent. Unlike many other classics. Maybe it's something connected to non-linear editing systems. I don't know. But the music just doesn't flow as effortlessly as before. Again, it has nothing to do with writing as such.

Karol

[Marian Schedenig 8,211]

It may not be as directly gripping as ESB, but there's a lot in it that's "inspired". The Luke/Emperor stuff, for example. Or the Rebel briefing and Tyderium music. And hated though they are, the Ewoks seem to have inspired Williams quite well, too.

[indy4 155]

That's not to say it's on par with Williams' classic themes of yore, but I think it services the film really well.

Actually, IMO, "Irina's Theme" is as good as the Nazi theme from Raiders, if not better. I think it's about on par with Mola Ram's theme, but not as good as the Nazi theme from LC.

[King Mark 3,631]

I've now integrated Call of the Cristal ,Mutt's Theme and Irena's theme as "classic" Williams theme . There is a dark beauty to Irena's Theme and no composer alive today can even dream of composing something remotely as good as this

I also just had this real dream :

There was a free JW concert in town,at an arena with a red dome roof where I used to skate as a kid. Figuring I had time ,I went for a walk before the concert .Soon I found myself several kilometers away but in an area I knew well. I ran and ran to catch a bus on a main boulevard leading to the vicinity of the concert,but it took off before I could reach it. I was out of breath and there was only 20 minutes left before the concert now. I ran to a side street thinking it would be a short cut and tried to go across some kind of field .Once on top of a small hill,I realized I was in the newly designed Spielberg amusement park and had to run across a fake desert of sand meant to recreate a Raiders scene to finally enter an area of town I did not recognize .It was dark and scary outside now ,with tall gray stone walls surrounding the streets seem to block the way so I could not see which way the arena.I entered a poorly lit tavern where I started to look for directions ,because I am now lost and the concert is in 10 minutes.A man suddenly proclaims to his girlfriend :"I am going to see John Williams " and she looks at him funny. Now I go to him and he says he'll take me in his car.... *wakes up*

[indy4 155]

I've now integrated Call of the Cristal ,Mutt's Theme and Irena's theme as "classic" Williams theme . There is a dark beauty to Irena's Theme and no composer alive today can even dream of composing something remotely as good as this

I agree with you for Irina and Mutt easily, I'd say Crystal Skull and Russian Theme are second rate themes (still great, but not in the batch of first rate themes), though whenever I hear the Russian theme in "Ants!" or the Skull theme in "Departure" I want to rank them higher...

I also just had this real dream :

There was a free JW concert in town,at an arena with a red dome roof where I used to skate as a kid. Figuring I had time ,I went for a walk before the concert .Soon I found myself several kilometers away but in an area I knew well. I ran and ran to catch a bus on a main boulevard leading to the vicinity of the concert,but it took off before I could reach it. I was out of breath and there was only 20 minutes left before the concert now. I ran to a side street thinking it would be a short cut and tried to go across some kind of field .Once on top of a small hill,I realized I was in the newly designed Spielberg amusement park and had to run across a fake desert of sand meant to recreate a Raiders scene to finally enter an area of town I did not recognize .It was dark and scary outside now ,with tall gray stone walls surrounding the streets seem to block the way so I could not see which way the arena.I entered a poorly lit tavern where I started to look for directions ,because I am now lost and the concert is in 10 minutes.A man suddenly proclaims to his girlfriend :"I am going to see John Williams " and she looks at him funny. Now I go to him and he says he'll take me in his car.... *wakes up*

Wow, that's quite a dream!

[crocodile 8,020]

I've now integrated Call of the Cristal ,Mutt's Theme and Irena's theme as "classic" Williams theme . There is a dark beauty to Irena's Theme and no composer alive today can even dream of composing something remotely as good as this

You know what? As much as I agree with you... Irina's theme actually reminds me a bit of love theme from Thomas Newman's The Good German. It has the same 40's bittersweet femme fatale feel to it. I haven't seem the film, but it seems Cate Blanchett is playing in it too. Coincidence?

Karol

[Neimoidian 14]

I've now integrated Call of the Cristal ,Mutt's Theme and Irena's theme as "classic" Williams theme . There is a dark beauty to Irena's Theme and no composer alive today can even dream of composing something remotely as good as this

You know what? As much as I agree with you... Irina's theme actually reminds me a bit of love theme from Thomas Newman's The Good German. It has the same 40's bittersweet femme fatale feel to it. I haven't seem the film, but it seems Cate Blanchett is playing in it too. Coincidence?

Karol

As a matter of fact, it looks to be a coincidence. However, there is no denying that both Newman and Williams were inspired by the same kind of music and who knows, maybe the same exact compositions.

[Ollie 1,059]

And the first 45 seconds of The Jungle Chase.

Movie or OST?

Because OST's is irina's theme + modern Williams action music...

The first 45 seconds of the cue on the album. While there is about 10 seconds of Williams' modern writing, the use of Irina's theme and the beginning of what I hoped would be a developing pursuit motif/theme sounds like vintage Williams.

While I would rate ROTJ as the third best score from the original trilogy it's still vintage Williams. He still manages to weave motifs and themes thru out the action cues. They may sound a little more "frantic" than previous set pieces but they still retain the feeling that they belong in a Star Wars film.

[publicist 4,643]

I've now integrated Call of the Cristal ,Mutt's Theme and Irena's theme as "classic" Williams theme . There is a dark beauty to Irena's Theme and no composer alive today can even dream of composing something remotely as good as this

The last sentence is rubbish and i agree with Mr. Olivarez that 'The Good German' is very close and for my money a lot more interesting, harmonically. Interestingly, i found a liking for the B-section of the 'Skull' theme which for me sounds like the only real 80s throwback of the score...the seducing woodwind solo is great. 'Mutt's Theme' sounds like a hoe-down but it's awfully slight even for a 3 minute piece. I want more of the Jungle chase stuff - it's the only part of the score i return to regularly.

[Ollie 1,059]

Actually that was "crocodile" (Karol) that posted about Newman's The Good German.

[222max 1]

It's music with no true identity. Take away Marion's theme and the Raiders march and the music sounds like it could be from any Williams score from the past 10 years or so.

I agree with this statement. In fact it has become more and more the case since Williams seems to have become so intensely focused on texture and note-crunching complexity in his writing. His music of his golden period (75-95 IMO) may have been less intricate but seemed to be more distinctive and individual to each score. There was also more pace and pitch to his action writing from that period versus now when he seems to just throw every note he has at you at once. Williams mastery of composition is at it's highest level in a technical sense but that's also part of the problem. A certain amount of drama and personality has been sacrificed in favor of technical showmanship.

Even at that though, there is no other composer working today who's technical showmanship I'd rather listen to more than Williams'.

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

It's music with no true identity. Take away Marion's theme and the Raiders march and the music sounds like it could be from any Williams score from the past 10 years or so.

I agree with this statement. In fact it has become more and more the case since Williams seems to have become so intensely focused on texture and note-crunching complexity in his writing. His music of his golden period (75-95 IMO) may have been less intricate but seemed to be more distinctive and individual to each score.

Since eveyone seems to strech or shorten his Golden age regarding their favorite scores, i just dont care anymore what people think about Williamsstyle and just enjoy his music.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

I like Irina's theme and the Skull theme, but I've barely listened to any of it since the film opened. It's certainly not a bad score, but uninspired is definitely a good way to put it.

That said, I'll defend ROTJ to my grave. That score is awesome.

[222max 1]

Since eveyone seems to strech or shorten his Golden age regarding their favorite scores, i just dont care anymore what people think about Williamsstyle and just enjoy his music.

Good for you!

[Genius_Gone_Insane 5]

Good god I just skimmed through this thread and I'll be shocked if some of you ever make babies. Really some of the poo above is totally absurd.

[222max 1]

Good god I just skimmed through this thread and I'll be shocked if some of you ever make babies. Really some of the poo above is totally absurd.

Maybe you can elaborate on why you think so.

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

Now, Genius, why has music always to do something with sex?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Good god I just skimmed through this thread and I'll be shocked if some of you ever make babies. Really some of the poo above is totally absurd.

Specify?

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Didn't he get suspended for saying something similarly stupid recently?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Marc does not suspend, he merely cautions.

[Genius_Gone_Insane 5]

Good god I just skimmed through this thread and I'll be shocked if some of you ever make babies. Really some of the poo above is totally absurd.

Maybe you can elaborate on why you think so.

Jeezus mmmkayen Christ this is what the French must feel like when Americans criticize them for not supporting the war. I shouldn't have to elaborate. This is fkn BS. Seriously, I don't post/read here much anymore for this exact reason.

Now, Genius, why has music always to do something with sex?

Ok, that's a valid question, but I'm still not going to answer that.

Didn't he get suspended for saying something similarly stupid recently?

Yes.

Marc does not suspend, he merely cautions.

No, Marc suspends needlessly.

[Ollie 1,059]

Good god I just skimmed through this thread and I'll be shocked if some of you ever make babies. Really some of the poo above is totally absurd.

I'll keep that in mind when I have dinner with my kids tonite.

[222max 1]

Jeezus mmmkayen Christ this is what the French must feel like when Americans criticize them for not supporting the war. I shouldn't have to elaborate. This is fkn BS. Seriously, I don't post/read here much anymore for this exact reason.

Well, if simply asking for the basis of your (cryptic) statement amounts to criticism then maybe you need a chill-pill. You comment by means of something as personal and off-the-wall as other peoples' procreative (and by suggestion, genetic) value in an open forum which asks for the viewpoint of others and expect not to be challenged on it????

At least the French gave reasons for their stand.