Do you listen to John Williams's music every day?

[Wojo 2,453]

It does depend on who you ask and what texts you refer to. The term "classical music" generally refers to the late 1700s/early 1800s in European instrumental music. It centers around Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven, as composers moved away from the earlier Baroque sound to a prim and proper format for music. Then when music shook that format up to bring greater emotion into the compositions, it ushered in the Romantic age. Beethoven was one composer that bridged both eras, but your later composers like Tchaikovsky, Brahms, Wagner, and even Prokofiev and Stravinsky in the 20th century would be considered Romantic composers.

But since the term "romantic" usually conjures up feelings other than these, for convenience or for laziness, all of these composers are usually lumped into "classical music" as well. On this side of the pond, people often toss Gershwin and Copland into the category as well.

It's just like with rock/pop music. When rock was new it was called rock and roll. Chuck Berry. Buddy Holly. Elvis. Now we call that music oldies. The music that came after that was more electric and a lot more edgy. The Who. The Beatles. Pink Floyd. Now we call that classic rock. But now, the "classic rock" genre encompasses the oldies and the 60s and 70s rock. It also includes a lot of 80s and 90s rock that had competed with the other music for attention, such as hair metal, grunge, and other newer alternative rock groups. Nirvana, Poison, and Beck get played on "classic rock" stations, which also must play Metallica, Green Day, RHCP, and other much newer music. Is all of this "classic rock?" Not today, but stick around fifty years and it will be.

So it is with instrumental music. You can only stretch the term "modern music" for so long before it gets too big to be considered new anymore. And so it is the other way, from the past coming forward. Just because people have written instrumental music ever since the early 1900s, when we felt the Romantic era gave way to the Twentieth Century era of music, well, that period is not so "modern" anymore, it's 90+ years old. And because the orchestras that performed Beethoven and Handel also perform the Leonard Bernstein and John Williams pieces, it's convenient for people to lump this instrumental music with classical music.

But of course, a film can use whatever it wants for "film music." Everything from "real" classical music (2001) to other people's songs (Saturday Night Fever) to a mix of score and songs (Disney cartoons) to totally original score written just for the movie (most Williams movies that get "score" releases). Is film music really classical music? Not hardly. The film music today is often regarded by the mainstream "classical music" community the same way that the true classical/romantic artists snubbed the opera and ballet writers back then. Ok, some wrote for both. But over time, the general public doesn't care about such labels, and so big happy vague terms swallow up everything.

My fingers hurt...

[Jessie Lohner 0]

I think film music will be classical music. In 90 years!

[MSM 126]

Only important people do.

Bushwah! Only people who care about art music do, and they aren't necessarily important.

It was sarcasm.

[Jacob 0]

It does depend on who you ask and what texts you refer to. The term "classical music" generally refers to the late 1700s/early 1800s in European instrumental music. It centers around Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven, as composers moved away from the earlier Baroque sound to a prim and proper format for music. Then when music shook that format up to bring greater emotion into the compositions, it ushered in the Romantic age. Beethoven was one composer that bridged both eras, but your later composers like Tchaikovsky, Brahms, Wagner, and even Prokofiev and Stravinsky in the 20th century would be considered Romantic composers.

But since the term "romantic" usually conjures up feelings other than these, for convenience or for laziness, all of these composers are usually lumped into "classical music" as well. On this side of the pond, people often toss Gershwin and Copland into the category as well.

It's just like with rock/pop music. When rock was new it was called rock and roll. Chuck Berry. Buddy Holly. Elvis. Now we call that music oldies. The music that came after that was more electric and a lot more edgy. The Who. The Beatles. Pink Floyd. Now we call that classic rock. But now, the "classic rock" genre encompasses the oldies and the 60s and 70s rock. It also includes a lot of 80s and 90s rock that had competed with the other music for attention, such as hair metal, grunge, and other newer alternative rock groups. Nirvana, Poison, and Beck get played on "classic rock" stations, which also must play Metallica, Green Day, RHCP, and other much newer music. Is all of this "classic rock?" Not today, but stick around fifty years and it will be.

So it is with instrumental music. You can only stretch the term "modern music" for so long before it gets too big to be considered new anymore. And so it is the other way, from the past coming forward. Just because people have written instrumental music ever since the early 1900s, when we felt the Romantic era gave way to the Twentieth Century era of music, well, that period is not so "modern" anymore, it's 90+ years old. And because the orchestras that performed Beethoven and Handel also perform the Leonard Bernstein and John Williams pieces, it's convenient for people to lump this instrumental music with classical music.

But of course, a film can use whatever it wants for "film music." Everything from "real" classical music (2001) to other people's songs (Saturday Night Fever) to a mix of score and songs (Disney cartoons) to totally original score written just for the movie (most Williams movies that get "score" releases). Is film music really classical music? Not hardly. The film music today is often regarded by the mainstream "classical music" community the same way that the true classical/romantic artists snubbed the opera and ballet writers back then. Ok, some wrote for both. But over time, the general public doesn't care about such labels, and so big happy vague terms swallow up everything.

My fingers hurt...

No, really. Interesting stuff. I learned something. I think.

[Hitch 58]

A simple No. James Horner is King of Kings now.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Until the end of the world.

[Desplat13 1]

Good post, Wojo. I pretty much agree with you. I think somebody needs to come up with a definitive classification system for music genres. Classical just doesn't cut it, and it always bothers me for people to toss that term around.

Actually, many of the terms are too much based on people's shifting opinions. Both 'classical' and 'modern' need to be thrown out the window, along with romantic, probably...

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I get what Wojo is saying. Honestly I prefer the larger more general genres of music. It's easier when referencing certain music. I recall Wojo explained previously how many different types of rock music there is, but for convenience it all gets tossed into "classic rock." I believe it's the easiest to just stick the given genres.

Classic rock for me ranges between the late 60's to early 80's. Of course you have disco in that time frame. All of the stuff from the 90's and 00's I just call mainstream music.

Wojo, I really hope no classic rock station is playing Green Day etc. It's not classic rock.

[Desplat13 1]

But I think that the terms should be firmer, and less prone to the listener's interpretations. The word 'classic' should be used for someone saying 'That song is classic *insert band name*', meaning it is from a time that they consider to be the best of that band, and is a good representation of that time. I don't think classic rock should be called that, because those who love 90's rock but not 80's would call the 90's the classic period.

Of course, modern was just plain a really bad idea for a term. So, where to now from post-modern?

[Jay 37,514]

I get what Wojo is saying. Honestly I prefer the larger more general genres of music. It's easier when referencing certain music. I recall Wojo explained previously how many different types of rock music there is, but for convenience it all gets tossed into "classic rock." I believe it's the easiest to just stick the given genres.

Classic rock for me ranges between the late 60's to early 80's. Of course you have disco in that time frame. All of the stuff from the 90's and 00's I just call mainstream music.

Wojo, I really hope no classic rock station is playing Green Day etc. It's not classic rock.

Classis rock is rock from the 60s and 70s, or rock since then that has a classic rock "feel" -- so (certain songs from) Tom Petty, REM, Black Crowes, etc

[Ollie 1,069]

I just classify it as movie soundtracks, makes it easier when discussing it. As far as other music, I just tell people I prefer most music from the 70's & 80's, except Country & Western.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I get what Wojo is saying. Honestly I prefer the larger more general genres of music. It's easier when referencing certain music. I recall Wojo explained previously how many different types of rock music there is, but for convenience it all gets tossed into "classic rock." I believe it's the easiest to just stick the given genres.

Classic rock for me ranges between the late 60's to early 80's. Of course you have disco in that time frame. All of the stuff from the 90's and 00's I just call mainstream music.

Wojo, I really hope no classic rock station is playing Green Day etc. It's not classic rock.

Classis rock is rock from the 60s and 70s, or rock since then that has a classic rock "feel" -- so (certain songs from) Tom Petty, REM, Black Crowes, etc

But Dire Straits definitely has a classic rock feel, and they're from the 80's. Same with Billy Idol. Nothing from today's music has that feel, IMO.

[Romão 2,276]

I love Dire Straits

[Desplat13 1]

The definition of 'classic': Judged over a period of time to be of the highest quality and outstanding of its kind

So it does have to be kind of old (over a period of time), but it also has to be of the highest quality and outstanding of its kind. This is just far to vague and opinionated a classification.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I love Dire Straits

Money For Nothing has the best build up of any song I've heard.

[Wojo 2,453]

Yes, but is Tom Petty the songwriter of today on par with Tom Petty the songwriter of the "classic rock" late 70s/early 80s days? Seriously?

Compare Bob Seger's last album to his "Live Bullet" material. Aside from one or two songs, there's no comparison. Springsteen's "Magic" is a very good album, but it's no "Born to Run." Aerosmith started making albums in the 1970s, so "Toys in the Attic" definitely has that classic rock sound, and when they redefined themselves as a ballad band in the 80s, they still made songs that get classified as classic rock. But is "Just Push Play" and their other latest output classic rock? I don't think so. I don't think any artist that started in the classic rock era that still records and tours has retained their classic rock sound when it comes to new material: the aforementioned bands, The Rolling Stones, Phil Collins, Peter Frampton, Paul McCartney, Fleetwood Mac (yes, they're back), Rush, etc. Oh certainly, they can still perform their old material just fine and make it sound like it did 30 years ago, voice willing. So can any half-decent barroom cover band.

A band can have a "classic rock sound" but not be classic rock. The Killers have a glam rock/punk edge sound similar to The Ramones or David Bowie, but they're still a modern (2004 to today) band. That would be saying a composer can write a symphony or suite or something today, in the vein of Beethoven or Tchaikovsky, and call it a "classical" piece of music. In the purist sense of the word that would be incorrect, but it happens and nobody contests it. Dire Straits has a classic rock feel because Knopfler is a hell of a guitarist, but I wouldn't call Billy Idol classic rock, I'd call it 80s hair rock. But what does that mean, really? I have no idea.

So considering "classic" to be of the highest quality is a delicate issue. If Beethoven wrote a crappy song, would it not be classical music because it's not good quality, even though it was written in his lifetime?

Truthfully, I don't know of any "classic rock" stations in my area. The only local station like that reinvented itself five years ago to have the motto "we play anything." So I listen to a superior rock station that plays classic rock, 80s rock, and modern rock all the time. I won't pay XM or Sirius the dough to get satellite classic rock stations, because my library of classic rock is very extensive.

Oh, and they won't play disco. Just because it was written in the 1970s doesn't make it classic rock. It is very hard to find a "classic rock" station that plays Syd Barrett Pink Floyd or Peter Gabriel Genesis, because those just aren't mainstream enough.

[Morn 8]

Not every day. But I do listen to film music every day.