Film students and film music.

[Kevin 22]

At my university, there doesn't appear to be much teaching in the way of film music and its effects on movies. Do you think there is a point about educating film students about film music or is it useless because you can't teach people how music should be in a movie (instinctive)?

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Well that's your university, not all.

[compos24 0]

First of all - Koray Savas - what was your intended tone in that statement? I think it came off with a lot more rudeness than you intended. Just curious...

...

I'm going to admit by bias. I am training on becoming a film composer and have loved film music as long as I can remember. So, naturally it's of extreme importance to me. I think it would be of extreme benefit to Film Departments to include a course [or major inclusion into a preestablished course] on Film Music and it's Role in the Subconscious Mind. I say subconscious as most of the music can go unnoticed to the general public. Film music fans, like myself are a special breed in which the score has a high tendency to creep into the conscious mind.

I will say you made an important point on the subject of instinct towards music. Musical preference is such a subjective notion. I think a lot of filmmakers may already have a predisposition on film music before they begin their training. Those who are interested are going to study it. I think it is really on the individual artist to decide the level of which he or she would like to learn the art of musical collaboration in film. It would naturally aide those who are less familiar with field to become more learned.

...Basically - a course should be offered in almost every university or film school, if possible. It's important to make the opportunity available to the interested parties.

[Kevin 22]

First of all - Koray Savas - what was your intended tone in that statement? I think it came off with a lot more rudeness than you intended. Just curious...

...

I'm going to admit by bias. I am training on becoming a film composer and have loved film music as long as I can remember. So, naturally it's of extreme importance to me. I think it would be of extreme benefit to Film Departments to include a course [or major inclusion into a preestablished course] on Film Music and it's Role in the Subconscious Mind. I say subconscious as most of the music can go unnoticed to the general public. Film music fans, like myself are a special breed in which the score has a high tendency to creep into the conscious mind.

I will say you made an important point on the subject of instinct towards music. Musical preference is such a subjective notion. I think a lot of filmmakers may already have a predisposition on film music before they begin their training. Those who are interested are going to study it. I think it is really on the individual artist to decide the level of which he or she would like to learn the art of musical collaboration in film. It would naturally aide those who are less familiar with field to become more learned.

...Basically - a course should be offered in almost every university or film school, if possible. It's important to make the opportunity available to the interested parties.

Theoretical or Practical?

[Jeshopk 8]

At my university, there doesn't appear to be much teaching in the way of film music and its effects on movies. Do you think there is a point about educating film students about film music or is it useless because you can't teach people how music should be in a movie (instinctive)?

Read "On the Track" and read a lot of interviews with film composers. There's a great book called "The Score: Interviews with Film Composers".

And a lot of my blog applies to film composing as well, as far as the communication that needs to take place, although it is a little different for film.

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/JesseHopkins/20090716/2449/Maximize_Your_Contract_Composers_Potential_by_Enhancing_Early_Communication.php

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

In my university, they mention all the time the score music. They used, as a classic example, "Jaws" without John Williams... They showed us a scene withohut John's music and it was amazing how much did the music improved the film. Without the music it would had been a very crappy movie.

They have also used a lot of examples, like "Empire of the Sun", in which, in a beautiful scene, the teacher said "listen to the music".

[Hlao-roo 389]

Do you think there is a point about educating film students about film music or is it useless because you can't teach people how music should be in a movie (instinctive)?

Sheesh, what's next? What's our home address? What's our social security number? Stop stalking us!

[Ollie 1,059]

[Wojo 2,453]

At my university, there doesn't appear to be much teaching in the way of film music and its effects on movies. Do you think there is a point about educating film students about film music or is it useless because you can't teach people how music should be in a movie (instinctive)?

But aren't so many of the arts instinctive and subjective at the same time? If you restrict courses to only what people think you can teach, shouldn't many of the liberal arts classes be terminated? Or if you limit your courses to historical presentations of the material, rather than creative application, you're stifling creativity until the students have moved beyond the relative safety of the classroom, where they can experiment, and into the real world where they're expected to know how to command their talents, whereupon they'll be squashed by the existing job force.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I recommend A History of Film Music by Mervyn Cooke, a fantastic academic source.

[A24 4,333]

It can't be taught.

[OrchDork 0]

I do feel that film students should at least have the option of taking a class on film music. As a film scoring student at USC, I was required to take a particular film music class taught by Kenny Hall (Goldsmith's music editor); a number of film students were required to take it as well - which I thought was fantastic. It was very relaxed (not intimidating at all) but also very informative.

Read "On the Track" and read a lot of interviews with film composers. There's a great book called "The Score: Interviews with Film Composers".

Both of these books are great, particularly "On the Track." It's a fantastic resource - filled with a wealth of information; and as a bonus, it features a forward by Williams.

[Jeshopk 8]

It can't be taught.

When you have filmmakers who cite Se7en and Silence of the Lambs as their influences for their current serial killer film, and they think a rock band will provide the proper suspense needed for the film, there is plenty that can be taught.

[Kevin 22]

I do feel that film students should at least have the option of taking a class on film music. As a film scoring student at USC, I was required to take a particular film music class taught by Kenny Hall (Goldsmith's music editor); a number of film students were required to take it as well - which I thought was fantastic. It was very relaxed (not intimidating at all) but also very informative.

Read "On the Track" and read a lot of interviews with film composers. There's a great book called "The Score: Interviews with Film Composers".

Both of these books are great, particularly "On the Track." It's a fantastic resource - filled with a wealth of information; and as a bonus, it features a forward by Williams.

What did you learn about in the course? Did he lecture and then you would watch a movie?

[Henry B 50]

It can't be taught.

When you have filmmakers who cite Se7en and Silence of the Lambs as their influences for their current serial killer film, and they think a rock band will provide the proper suspense needed for the film, there is plenty that can be taught.

Yes, people need to be taught that there is only one correct way to score any film.

I took a film music course for non-musicians at the University of Massachusetts this past spring. The historical aspect was nice. We covered everything from silent theater pianists to Hans Zimmer. The format was lectures punctuated by film clips. The professor made some interesting points about different scoring techniques, the use of song in film and more. One thing I never noticed: when Elliot is evading the government agents on his bicycle in E.T., the brass represents the agents while the strings represent Elliot, shot for shot. When Elliot escapes, his theme is stated on brass, a way of "sticking it" to the government agents.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

It can't be taught.

When you have filmmakers who cite Se7en and Silence of the Lambs as their influences for their current serial killer film, and they think a rock band will provide the proper suspense needed for the film, there is plenty that can be taught.

It's interesting how you mention two of the best movies of the 90s in a derogatory sentence. Especially since both movies had fine scores by Howard Shore.

[Red 75]

It can't be taught.

When you have filmmakers who cite Se7en and Silence of the Lambs as their influences for their current serial killer film

Both of those are great movies thank you very much.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

What Charlie and Red said.

[airmanjerm 78]

I can't POSSIBLY pretend to have much of a clue on the requirements for a film-related degree, but I do have a few thoughts.

First, I don't care what a university's requirements are, I think if a film student is serious about his craft, he will do whatever he can to learn about the various aspects of making a good film. I'm serious about creating music (and hopefully GOOD music), so I have studied everything from the music of John WIlliams to the music of Hildegard of Bingen. That's just good research, if nothing else.

If "Johnny Filmmaker" is at the University of Naboo and they offer a course in film music - whether it's for film makers or for musicians - he would be wise to take it! The language might be above his head, but he can probably learn something from it.

Case in point:

OK, I got to score four US Air Force commercials back in like 2003 or so. Remember those "We've Been Waiting for You" commercials? They wanted canned "hip-hop beats" (as they called them). I was able to convince them that something less "canned," and more suited to the actual VISUAL would be much more appropriate. Although I continuted to object, they INSISTED on something with a rock-band sound (even through my own objections). So, we came up with something that fit better than what they wanted. It's still a little "canned" sounding, but here's one of them:

The bottom line is: if a person is interested in making a good film, they need to learn all the aspects of doing it, whether it meets a degree requirement or not. You certainly don't become GREAT at something by doing the MINIMUM. Music is an important aspect of any film....even a silly little recruiting commercial. Taking time to learn at least a little about it would benefit anyone with such goals.

P.S> This could easily come off as some sort of self-promoting post, so my apologies...I don't mean it that way. I don't think anybody here would be impressed with the ridiculous music in that silly commercial.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=MdIzJxVDl48

Hey, I remember that commercial!

This could easily come off as some sort of self-promoting post, so my apologies..

No apology necessary, Jeremy, I absolutely agree with your post.

[Richard Penna 3,689]

Do you think there is a point about educating film students about film music or is it useless because you can't teach people how music should be in a movie (instinctive)?

Sheesh, what's next? What's our home address? What's our social security number? Stop stalking us!

Where the hell did that come from? He asked a sensible question.

I think you should teach someone what music is supposed to do in a film and how to spot a film, at the very least.

On one hand, a budding filmmaker should be enthusiastic to learn about everything, but then I think back to my CS degree, and there were several modules that I didn't care for much and only did the bare minimum to understand what was going on (basically anything overly mathematical ).

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Do you think there is a point about educating film students about film music or is it useless because you can't teach people how music should be in a movie (instinctive)?

Sheesh, what's next? What's our home address? What's our social security number? Stop stalking us!

Where the hell did that come from? He asked a sensible question.

Think about who's posting.

[indy4 155]

It can't be taught.

When you have filmmakers who cite Se7en and Silence of the Lambs as their influences for their current serial killer film

Both of those are great movies thank you very much.

I think Jeshopk's point was to say that people "have much to learn" if they are citing these classics as their inspiration, but they produce their own film very differently by using a rock band over a traditional score.

About the thread, I agree with Wojo in that all art form is subjective and "instinctive," so I'm not quite sure why film music would be worth teaching more or less than any other type of art.

[Henry B 50]

No, I think his point was that a rock band (? rock instrumentation? what kind of rock?) can never, under any circumstances, provide an adequate score for a suspense film. Only symphonic forces are fit for film scores.

[indy4 155]

No, I think his point was that a rock band (? rock instrumentation? what kind of rock?) can never, under any circumstances, provide an adequate score for a suspense film. Only symphonic forces are fit for film scores.

I believe that was an assumption he made to prove his point, not the point itself.

[Henry B 50]

I... what?

[indy4 155]

I... what?

The "point" of a statement is what the statement is trying to accomplish. When Jeshopk wrote his sentence, he was trying to say that the art of film scoring needs to be taught at universities. He used an assumption (the comment about rock music) to prove that modern composers/directors are not very good in this area. He was not trying to prove this assertion, but rather use the assertion to prove his point.

I'm not claiming that the assertion is any less close-minded than you make it out to be (or any more close-minded, for that matter). But that wasn't the point of his statement.

[Henry B 50]

That.... was a rhetorical "what." Good lord, look at all this! Advice: read novels, not grammar manuals.

[OrchDork 0]

I do feel that film students should at least have the option of taking a class on film music. As a film scoring student at USC, I was required to take a particular film music class taught by Kenny Hall (Goldsmith's music editor); a number of film students were required to take it as well - which I thought was fantastic. It was very relaxed (not intimidating at all) but also very informative.

Read "On the Track" and read a lot of interviews with film composers. There's a great book called "The Score: Interviews with Film Composers".

Both of these books are great, particularly "On the Track." It's a fantastic resource - filled with a wealth of information; and as a bonus, it features a forward by Williams.

What did you learn about in the course? Did he lecture and then you would watch a movie?

Kenny lectured and answered questions both before and after watching film clips, and in many instances we would watch movies in their entirety over the course of two or more classes (with breaks for discussion in between). The great thing was that, since the class was a mix of film making and film scoring students, he would talk in general terms about the music's presence and purpose in various scenes - the film making students would have a solid, basic understanding of (the) music's role in the film, and the film scoring students would dissect the music itself. For instance, if Kenny said that Goldsmith (or Williams, as was the case with "E.T.") used music in a scene to make it more brooding (or whatever emotion was relevant), the film making students would connect the brooding emotion with the music and the visuals, while the film scoring students would, in our minds, take apart what the composer did to provide that brooding sensation (orchestration, rhythm, tempo, etc.). Basically, that's a very long-winded way of saying that both groups of students got something out of the class.

The bonus was that Kenny had a ton of really great stories to tell (both good and bad) about the scoring process for the composers with whom he worked as well as the films' respective directors and producers. On a personal level, he's also an incredibly nice guy, which made the class extra fun.

[indy4 155]

That.... was a rhetorical "what." Good lord, look at all this! Advice: read novels, not grammar manuals.

You were the one who initially challenged my vocabulary use (this is a vocabulary issue, not a grammatical one), I was merely responding.

[Henry B 50]

I have such a bad habit of confusing vocabulary issues with grammatical issues!

[indy4 155]

I think that's sarcasm...

[Jeshopk 8]

This thread started off as a good question, but now it is just dumb. The assumptions being made here are just mind boggling. Obviously, I was saying that Se7en and Silence of the Lambs had great scores, but many times emulators will just stick in their favorite bands and don't think about how the scores of those films functioned to enhance the drama and suspense. To me, dark rock and roll is not that scary, nor that functional, in the way it is used in the cheap serial killer movies. Most of those movies rely on torture anyway, so you feel so bad you could put Mary Poppins in there and the goal of turning your stomach would be accomplished. If you had a band actually scoring a cheap serial killer film using dramatic and suspense techniques, that would be interesting (perhaps a Queen/Flash Gordon approach but in a different style), but for rock serial killer soundtracks I have only seen licensed music being placed without any clear dramatic function. I think it's mainly a choice to attract or hold a demographic.

Don't act like there's nothing to be learned Henry Fuck.

[compos24 0]

[Cough]

...Well.

[Henry B 50]

Wow.

[Red 75]

I don't think that was grammatically correct...

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I took a film music course for non-musicians at the University of Massachusetts this past spring. The historical aspect was nice. We covered everything from silent theater pianists to Hans Zimmer. The format was lectures punctuated by film clips. The professor made some interesting points about different scoring techniques, the use of song in film and more. One thing I never noticed: when Elliot is evading the government agents on his bicycle in E.T., the brass represents the agents while the strings represent Elliot, shot for shot. When Elliot escapes, his theme is stated on brass, a way of "sticking it" to the government agents.

Whoa man, that's deep.

[Kevin 22]

I do feel that film students should at least have the option of taking a class on film music. As a film scoring student at USC, I was required to take a particular film music class taught by Kenny Hall (Goldsmith's music editor); a number of film students were required to take it as well - which I thought was fantastic. It was very relaxed (not intimidating at all) but also very informative.

Read "On the Track" and read a lot of interviews with film composers. There's a great book called "The Score: Interviews with Film Composers".

Both of these books are great, particularly "On the Track." It's a fantastic resource - filled with a wealth of information; and as a bonus, it features a forward by Williams.

What did you learn about in the course? Did he lecture and then you would watch a movie?

Kenny lectured and answered questions both before and after watching film clips, and in many instances we would watch movies in their entirety over the course of two or more classes (with breaks for discussion in between). The great thing was that, since the class was a mix of film making and film scoring students, he would talk in general terms about the music's presence and purpose in various scenes - the film making students would have a solid, basic understanding of (the) music's role in the film, and the film scoring students would dissect the music itself. For instance, if Kenny said that Goldsmith (or Williams, as was the case with "E.T.") used music in a scene to make it more brooding (or whatever emotion was relevant), the film making students would connect the brooding emotion with the music and the visuals, while the film scoring students would, in our minds, take apart what the composer did to provide that brooding sensation (orchestration, rhythm, tempo, etc.). Basically, that's a very long-winded way of saying that both groups of students got something out of the class.

The bonus was that Kenny had a ton of really great stories to tell (both good and bad) about the scoring process for the composers with whom he worked as well as the films' respective directors and producers. On a personal level, he's also an incredibly nice guy, which made the class extra fun.

What sort of assignments did you have?

[OrchDork 0]

I do feel that film students should at least have the option of taking a class on film music. As a film scoring student at USC, I was required to take a particular film music class taught by Kenny Hall (Goldsmith's music editor); a number of film students were required to take it as well - which I thought was fantastic. It was very relaxed (not intimidating at all) but also very informative.

Read "On the Track" and read a lot of interviews with film composers. There's a great book called "The Score: Interviews with Film Composers".

Both of these books are great, particularly "On the Track." It's a fantastic resource - filled with a wealth of information; and as a bonus, it features a forward by Williams.

What did you learn about in the course? Did he lecture and then you would watch a movie?

Kenny lectured and answered questions both before and after watching film clips, and in many instances we would watch movies in their entirety over the course of two or more classes (with breaks for discussion in between). The great thing was that, since the class was a mix of film making and film scoring students, he would talk in general terms about the music's presence and purpose in various scenes - the film making students would have a solid, basic understanding of (the) music's role in the film, and the film scoring students would dissect the music itself. For instance, if Kenny said that Goldsmith (or Williams, as was the case with "E.T.") used music in a scene to make it more brooding (or whatever emotion was relevant), the film making students would connect the brooding emotion with the music and the visuals, while the film scoring students would, in our minds, take apart what the composer did to provide that brooding sensation (orchestration, rhythm, tempo, etc.). Basically, that's a very long-winded way of saying that both groups of students got something out of the class.

The bonus was that Kenny had a ton of really great stories to tell (both good and bad) about the scoring process for the composers with whom he worked as well as the films' respective directors and producers. On a personal level, he's also an incredibly nice guy, which made the class extra fun.

What sort of assignments did you have?

We didn't have many assignments, actually. Kenny assigned some readings here and there on the history of film music, and we would be quized; and there was one class where we were asked to bring in a clip of film that illustrated good scoring. I chose Raiders of the Lost Ark - "The Map Room: Dawn" - and discussed how Williams' music gave that scene (which, visually, is nothing terribly exciting) a very powerful, almost spiritual, feel. It was interesting to see what everyone chose (there was quite a disparity among the film scoring students alone for that assignment).

[Kevin 22]

I do feel that film students should at least have the option of taking a class on film music. As a film scoring student at USC, I was required to take a particular film music class taught by Kenny Hall (Goldsmith's music editor); a number of film students were required to take it as well - which I thought was fantastic. It was very relaxed (not intimidating at all) but also very informative.

Read "On the Track" and read a lot of interviews with film composers. There's a great book called "The Score: Interviews with Film Composers".

Both of these books are great, particularly "On the Track." It's a fantastic resource - filled with a wealth of information; and as a bonus, it features a forward by Williams.

What did you learn about in the course? Did he lecture and then you would watch a movie?

Kenny lectured and answered questions both before and after watching film clips, and in many instances we would watch movies in their entirety over the course of two or more classes (with breaks for discussion in between). The great thing was that, since the class was a mix of film making and film scoring students, he would talk in general terms about the music's presence and purpose in various scenes - the film making students would have a solid, basic understanding of (the) music's role in the film, and the film scoring students would dissect the music itself. For instance, if Kenny said that Goldsmith (or Williams, as was the case with "E.T.") used music in a scene to make it more brooding (or whatever emotion was relevant), the film making students would connect the brooding emotion with the music and the visuals, while the film scoring students would, in our minds, take apart what the composer did to provide that brooding sensation (orchestration, rhythm, tempo, etc.). Basically, that's a very long-winded way of saying that both groups of students got something out of the class.

The bonus was that Kenny had a ton of really great stories to tell (both good and bad) about the scoring process for the composers with whom he worked as well as the films' respective directors and producers. On a personal level, he's also an incredibly nice guy, which made the class extra fun.

What sort of assignments did you have?

We didn't have many assignments, actually. Kenny assigned some readings here and there on the history of film music, and we would be quized; and there was one class where we were asked to bring in a clip of film that illustrated good scoring. I chose Raiders of the Lost Ark - "The Map Room: Dawn" - and discussed how Williams' music gave that scene (which, visually, is nothing terribly exciting) a very powerful, almost spiritual, feel. It was interesting to see what everyone chose (there was quite a disparity among the film scoring students alone for that assignment).

What did other people choose?

[OrchDork 0]

I do feel that film students should at least have the option of taking a class on film music. As a film scoring student at USC, I was required to take a particular film music class taught by Kenny Hall (Goldsmith's music editor); a number of film students were required to take it as well - which I thought was fantastic. It was very relaxed (not intimidating at all) but also very informative.

Read "On the Track" and read a lot of interviews with film composers. There's a great book called "The Score: Interviews with Film Composers".

Both of these books are great, particularly "On the Track." It's a fantastic resource - filled with a wealth of information; and as a bonus, it features a forward by Williams.

What did you learn about in the course? Did he lecture and then you would watch a movie?

Kenny lectured and answered questions both before and after watching film clips, and in many instances we would watch movies in their entirety over the course of two or more classes (with breaks for discussion in between). The great thing was that, since the class was a mix of film making and film scoring students, he would talk in general terms about the music's presence and purpose in various scenes - the film making students would have a solid, basic understanding of (the) music's role in the film, and the film scoring students would dissect the music itself. For instance, if Kenny said that Goldsmith (or Williams, as was the case with "E.T.") used music in a scene to make it more brooding (or whatever emotion was relevant), the film making students would connect the brooding emotion with the music and the visuals, while the film scoring students would, in our minds, take apart what the composer did to provide that brooding sensation (orchestration, rhythm, tempo, etc.). Basically, that's a very long-winded way of saying that both groups of students got something out of the class.

The bonus was that Kenny had a ton of really great stories to tell (both good and bad) about the scoring process for the composers with whom he worked as well as the films' respective directors and producers. On a personal level, he's also an incredibly nice guy, which made the class extra fun.

What sort of assignments did you have?

We didn't have many assignments, actually. Kenny assigned some readings here and there on the history of film music, and we would be quized; and there was one class where we were asked to bring in a clip of film that illustrated good scoring. I chose Raiders of the Lost Ark - "The Map Room: Dawn" - and discussed how Williams' music gave that scene (which, visually, is nothing terribly exciting) a very powerful, almost spiritual, feel. It was interesting to see what everyone chose (there was quite a disparity among the film scoring students alone for that assignment).

What did other people choose?

One of my film scoring classmates chose Kill Bill, another chose Batman. Hook was presented, too, along with Evita and The Red Violin - to name a few. Sadly, I can't recall the film making students' choices, but I do remember thinking that they were very interesting and thought-provoking.

[Thor 7,504]

Times have surely changed this thread was first created in 2009.

 

I remember back in 2007, when I taught at the unversity myself, I had to 'sneak' various film music elements into courses that were more generally about film history, alternative film, visual rhetorics or 'music and media'. There was no special course on film music, in particular. In fact, my own thesis on the subject had to rely on various international authors; I had very few Norwegian resources to use. Now, however, there are several master students specializing in the field, and there is even a special branch at the Norwegian film school that educates new prospective film composers.