Howard Shore's An Unexpected Journey (Hobbit Part 1)

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I agree with Lee! It stands out like a sore thumb.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[crocodile 8,020]

I can live with it. What about that Gondor Reborn material, though?

Karol

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Quintus 5,399]

Forgivable, just.

Doesn't rip me out off chair like the Nazgul music does.

[crocodile 8,020]

Well, the Nazgul music played over the battle music at the beginning of FOTR, and it also makes little sense.

Karol

[Quintus 5,399]

That's why I prefer to refer to it as the 'Forces of Evil' motif.

And I think it makes perfect sense in the scene you mentioned.

If they'd turned that [Hobbit] scene on its head and instead had Azog drawing himself up (in slow motion, of course ) and charging at Thorin and taking him down then the choice of music would have been much more reasonable and comfortable.

In fact why the fuck didn't they do that?! It'd have been badass! And a PROPER nod to LOTR.

[Incanus 5,716]

He might have gotten away with it with me in that climatic moment if he'd worked harder on creating an emotional division between the two ideas, made the connection much more subtly instead of bringing it down on my head like a mallet.

The use of the theme comes indeed very suddenly and in full force. There is no build-up as such, it just starts abruptly. This scene doesn't somehow earn it at this point in my opinion.

Well, the Nazgul music played over the battle music at the beginning of FOTR, and it also makes little sense.

Karol

In the Prologue I felt it was very natural as Sauron was present, the theme in essence the most powerful of the Mordor material, most violent and the most unrelentingly forceful. It depicted the raw power of Mordor and especially the Ring. It is one of those moments where PJ must have wanted something more impactful on screen, so Shore obliged and the original drafts were abandoned. But it does not stick out like a sore thumb (not that it even could because it is the opening of the whole thing and doesn't have a whole trilogy of musical progression behind it.) It might be a bit incongrous if you think of it as only relating to Nazgûl (which it mostly does) but as a musical introduction it offers a sample of the villanous material from the score right off the bat, a kind of musical conditioning.

[Doug Adams 494]

If that's the explanation behind the use of that theme, well, let me tell you, that's pretty lame!

It's not "the explanation," it's just another example of how the music of Mordor (or variations) is consistently assigned to the Orcs in this score. Love it or hate it, the finale is very much in keeping with the pervading approaching.

D

[Barnald 365]

This is my first post so apologies if someone has mentioned it before. Regarding the bonus track, 'Edge of the Wild': I know it has previously been speculated that the track is supposed to score Gandalf's trip to the High Fells, and I definitely suspect this is the case for much of it. But I was wondering if anyone had observed how well the first 1m7s or so of the track corresponds with the sweeping shots of the Company leaving Rivendell, for which the grand statement of the 'Misty Mountains' theme plays in the film proper? This would accord with what Thorin says about them 'about to step over the edge of the wild' just two scenes earlier. I like both pieces of music equally to be honest, but I do wonder if this is reflective of Shore's original intent not to be so liberal with the 'Misty Mountains' theme, and perhaps Jackson's eagerness for the music from the first trailer to be included. Of course it may just be an alternative discarded at an early stage.

[Doug Adams 494]

He might have gotten away with it with me in that climatic moment if he'd worked harder on creating an emotional division between the two ideas, made the connection much more subtly instead of bringing it down on my head like a mallet.

The use of the theme comes indeed very suddenly and in full force. There is no build-up as such, it just starts abruptly. This scene doesn't somehow earn it at this point in my opinion.

Again, that's entirely subjective, so I certainly won't argue your opinion. However, it's worth noting that this sequence begins with the Descending Thirds motif, which has been presented in a sort of devolved variation upon almost every appearance of Azog. The fight with Thorin is very much the culmination of a compositional thread that has been running throughout the full score. Obviously this doesn't make it better or worse, but it's important to note that there is, in fact, a dramatic through line.

D

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[crocodile 8,020]

That's why I prefer to refer to it as the 'Forces of Evil' motif.

And I think it makes perfect sense in the scene you mentioned.

If they'd turned that [Hobbit] scene on its head and instead had Azog drawing himself up (in slow motion, of course ) and charging at Thorin and taking him down then the choice of music would have been much more reasonable and comfortable.

In fact why the fuck didn't they do that?! It'd have been badass! And a PROPER nod to LOTR.

The problem I have with the score as heard with the film is not with the fact that there is all that material used again. It's not that. There might be a perfectly good reason for it. But the thing is the final product as a whole doesn't sound new or fresh. And yes - weaker and less special. As the matter of fact I was talking to some people who are not fans of film music and they told me that they were disappointed there is so much LOTR material in there ("did they just copy & paste it or what"? and another one said "sound like a patchwork"). It's not someone who usually pays attention to music in films. If they can notice that...

Karol

[Incanus 5,716]

If they'd turned that [Hobbit] scene on its head and instead had Azog drawing himself up (in slow motion, of course ) and charging at Thorin and taking him down then the choice of music would have been much more reasonable and comfortable.

Indeed the way the perspective is changed in the film in comparison with the version on the OST, as I said before, the moment becomes oddly reversed. The active party in the scene is Thorin, he is attacking. Shore's original approach really took that as the starting point it seems and the Dwarven music is heroic and courageous. In the film the Ringwraith theme does indeed illustrate the dire straits, the fatality of the attack and the power of the enemy but when Thorin is in focus the whole time, it somehow makes the musico-dramatic scenario feel askew. At least to me.

And as said by Doug above, the music does follow another dramatic thread, the villain, through the film. There is this logic behind it and the film makers and Shore look at the scene from that angle. To some people this works, to some it doesn't. Personal perspectives.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Quintus 5,399]

He might have gotten away with it with me in that climatic moment if he'd worked harder on creating an emotional division between the two ideas, made the connection much more subtly instead of bringing it down on my head like a mallet.

The use of the theme comes indeed very suddenly and in full force. There is no build-up as such, it just starts abruptly. This scene doesn't somehow earn it at this point in my opinion.

Again, that's entirely subjective, so I certainly won't argue your opinion. However, it's worth noting that this sequence begins with the Descending Thirds motif, which has been presented in a sort of devolved variation upon almost every appearance of Azog. The fight with Thorin is very much the culmination of a compositional thread that has been running throughout the full score. Obviously this doesn't make it better or worse, but it's important to note that there is, in fact, a dramatic through line.

D

I don't think it is subjective though, Doug. Shore and Jackson may have had the best intentions in the world when utilising that motif in that moment, but it means nothing when Shore failed to flesh out his modus operandi to a sufficient level beforehand, in the score before that point. There was zero preparation for it - he didn't court the audience and listener enough with his ideas in the run up simply because he never intended it in the first place. That is glaringly obvious and the reason it's proved so controversial (in these circles).

[KK 3,307]

He might have gotten away with it with me in that climatic moment if he'd worked harder on creating an emotional division between the two ideas, made the connection much more subtly instead of bringing it down on my head like a mallet.

The use of the theme comes indeed very suddenly and in full force. There is no build-up as such, it just starts abruptly. This scene doesn't somehow earn it at this point in my opinion.

Again, that's entirely subjective, so I certainly won't argue your opinion. However, it's worth noting that this sequence begins with the Descending Thirds motif, which has been presented in a sort of devolved variation upon almost every appearance of Azog. The fight with Thorin is very much the culmination of a compositional thread that has been running throughout the full score. Obviously this doesn't make it better or worse, but it's important to note that there is, in fact, a dramatic through line.

D

But if I'm not mistaken Doug, it's common for the Descending Third to accompany the Wraiths theme. It's something to be expected of in most appearances in my view (it is an accompaniment motif after all).

I think many of us feel the use of the chant to be incredibly abrupt. There are several instances in LotR where the Nazgul appear and Shore doesn't even quote the chant, but rather hints at the wraiths in a more subtle fashion (in perhaps more a harmonic sen). So how is it that when there are no wraiths in sight, Shore doesn't offer any subtlety in that scene. Or at the very least, rhythmically or harmonically tease at the motif prior to the climax. That would at the very least show some sense of evolution and progression to that climax.

In my opinion, I would have preferred to hear new music than the theme.

[Doug Adams 494]

But if I'm not mistaken Doug, it's common for the Descending Third to accompany the Wraiths theme. It's something to be expected of in most appearances in my view (it is an accompaniment motif after all).

The Descending Third underscores the Orcs in ROTK.

So how is it that when there are no wraiths in sight, Shore doesn't offer any subtlety in that scene. Or at the very least, rhythmically or harmonically tease at the motif prior to the climax. That would at the very least show some sense of evolution and progression to that climax.

Again, I certainly don't mean to supplant anyone's opinion, but in point of fact, both the Wraith's signature chord and variations on the Descending Third are used throughout the finale and lead up to Thorin's charge. People may not love the pacing, etc., but the material is indeed in the scene.

D

[KK 3,307]

But if I'm not mistaken Doug, it's common for the Descending Third to accompany the Wraiths theme. It's something to be expected of in most appearances in my view (it is an accompaniment motif after all).

The Descending Third underscores the Orcs in ROTK.

I know Doug, but I was referring to how I don't find it uncommon for the Descending Third to underscore the wraith theme. I'm not arguing whether its been brought to the forefront (which it has), but you suggested that the Descending Third was the mechanism used to develop into the theme, where I suggest that the motif has accompanied the wraith theme often regardless.

So how is it that when there are no wraiths in sight, Shore doesn't offer any subtlety in that scene. Or at the very least, rhythmically or harmonically tease at the motif prior to the climax. That would at the very least show some sense of evolution and progression to that climax.

Again, I certainly don't mean to supplant anyone's opinion, but in point of fact, both the Wraith's signature chord and variations on the Descending Third are used throughout the finale and lead up to Thorin's charge. People may not love the pacing, etc., but the material is indeed in the scene.

D

No one is arguing the material, but I think many of us aren't fond of the lack of subtlety, or the remaining sense of abruptness.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Doug Adams 494]

No one is arguing the material.

Huh, actually, I am!

Doug, I have a question for you which I'm afraid you probably won't be able to answer to, but I'm gonna ask it anyway.

In the case of an eventual CR release, what would appear on the CD: the Ringwraiths theme, or the choral material appearing in Out Of The Frying-Pan?

Your feelings serve you well ... I can't answer that! Sorry!

D

[tannhauser 101]

Please let it be the "ringwraith" version. I love it to bits!

[gkgyver 1,645]

It would seem odd to have the OST version on a CR when there is obvious alternate material in the film. Doesn't seem logical.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[gkgyver 1,645]

Yeah, well, changing one part of a cue a bit is not as significant as Out of the Frying Pan, where practically half of the piece was rescored.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[gkgyver 1,645]

Don't forget the pine cone throwing which is completely different than the album version, also the music after the choir is different in the film, without boy solo. And some of the music before that is also different.

[Richard Penna 3,695]

Is the eagle rescue music in this cue or just unreleased?

I've got no idea what the brass fanfare at the end of Frying-Pan was going to score.

[gkgyver 1,645]

The eagle rescue is unreleased I think, unless the first part of A Good Omen is an alternate to the film version. but it's a little short for that.

[Incanus 5,716]

Tracksounds has now a podcast up on the Hobbit with Doug Adams as a guest.

Interestingly Doug mentions that they had a lot of material already recorded but chose to use this or that piece for the album. Nothing new as such but would indicate the composer's preference the same way as we on the CRs get a couple of different pieces in comparison with the final film versions because they were what the composer wanted to use for the album.

[Richard Penna 3,695]

In that case I really would hope that he gives us the film versions on the CRs. The real eagle rescue cue must be released.

[Incanus 5,716]

I have no doubt that they will give us the film version of that on the eventual CR if the previous releases are anything to go by. It is essentially a rescore of the entire ending.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jilal 569]

There was a lot of edits in the OST track, obviously, so it only starts syncing up at 0:17 (where you can clearly hear the edit), but it gives us a rough idea of what was the original plan for that scene.

Whether it's in sync at the beginning or not, I like the horn statement underscoring that shot of Thorin.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jilal 569]

They're similar of course, in terms of orchestration, but I don't think they sound the same - the chords sound different to me. But the texture is definitely the same.

So I think there is a loose connection.

The choir in Moria sounds a lot like the choir in "My Dear Frodo" as well.

[gkgyver 1,645]

I give you three guesses to figure out why.

[KK 3,307]

If you were referring to "An Elvish Pledge", then no, it's not a connection. But texturally similar yes.

In the prologue, Shore utilizes the same choral techniques as the Dwarven music in FotR. "An Ancient Enemy" hardens back to the Moria music but uses fourths instead of fifths.

[Jilal 569]

The more I hear connections between both trilogies, the more I like the score (and film).

[Faleel 5,360]

The Music in Axe and Sword, with the key... is that Dwarrowdelf theme? or just similar style?

[ChrisAfonso 186]

The beginning of "An Unexpected Party" and "Balin's Tomb" are virtually the same, and closely related to the three-part rising Erebor motif (third/forth/fifth) and the beginning of Thorin's theme. Also the Erebor motif shares its rhythmic and directional gesture with the short brass exclamation at ~3:06 in "Balin's Tomb". To top it off, the first of the three intervals in the Erebor theme (a-c) is part of the accompanying motif in the beginning section of "Balin's Tomb" (repeated a-c-b). OF course this could be coincidence, as the motifs are so simple. But at least they're all (except the 3:06 in Balin's Tomb) in the same key (a minor).

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[ChrisAfonso 186]

I don't currently recall where the key comes in in that track, but recently noticed those other dwarrowdelf connections... things like these really increase my enjoyment of the score, which at the beginning was fairly average.

[KK 3,307]

The similarities between the Erebor theme and the passages you pointed Chris are coincidental. But where you are right is that most of the Dwarven material in both the Hobbit and FotR are in natural minor (or Aeolian mode).

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

How do you know they are incidental?

The Eagle Rescue cue

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvwzLls4i_w

Do i detect a Forth Eorlingas reference at around 53 seconds?

Thank you Miss Brallice!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvwzLls4i_w

[Quintus 5,399]

Hmm, I'm not sure I'm entirely convinced. It's a couple of notes and the harmony is very briefly apparent, but knowing Shore it could well be a bit of convenient self-plagiarism as it could a complete harmonic coincidence within the wider form of the cue. It just seems too slight to be worth the design.

I was also going to suggest that there was no context for it, but I've recently learned new things about Mr Shore in that regard...

So yeah, on the other hand maybe he went just as crazy as his director when it came to linking anything and everything to LotR at every possible opportunity - even if it made no convincing sense whatsoever, who knows!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yes its very brief, but its there.

Love the theme that kicks in at 2:15

[Faleel 5,360]

What is that?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

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