Howard Shore's An Unexpected Journey (Hobbit Part 1)

[crocodile 8,018]

The changes are not "bad" per se, because for the most part, the music plays very well in the film. But since Shore tried to craft his scores (and in fact the whole Middle Earth) in such detail, whenever you move something or illustrate it with different idea, it can create quite a stir. With all the extended edition and book, we got quite knowledgeable in the music and that's where all the negativity comes from. Besides, a lot of this unused material is pretty damn good.

Karol

[Ollie 1,059]

I haven't read Doug's blogs or this entire thread, but perhaps the decision to go with 3 films from 2 was part of this decision?

[Quintus 5,399]

I came to a helpful conclusion about that yesterday actually: it's better to not think of the book at all when wondering what might happen next. Jackson has clearly gone way, way off the page and so I've decided that the main thing now is that he makes two more thrilling fantasy movies in their own right, which I actually think he will. Referencing the book at this point is clearly futile and a waste of time. Best to just go along with the ride and see what happens, enjoy this new adventure in Hollywood's version of Middle-Earth. There'll still be a dragon, a Ring and battles. That's all people are really expecting anyway, and Jackson knows it.

[crocodile 8,018]

Have you heard the album yet, Lee?

Karol

[Quintus 5,399]

Yeah it's all I've had on in the car.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I came to a helpful conclusion about that yesterday actually: it's better to not think of the book at all when wondering what might happen next.

Well said. I'll be there again one year from now, hoping to enjoy myself.

In the mean time i'm not that interested in analysing the shit out of any clue we find online trying to determine were PJ will stray from the book.

[crocodile 8,018]

Yeah it's all I've had on in the car.

So you like it then, I take it?

Karol

[KK 3,307]

In my case the CD was released a few months before the film went out. So I knew the score very very well already. The edits were very obvious.

To be honest I didn't notice a lot of tinkering in The Hobbit.

It's not the tinkering that's the issue here. It's the ultimately pretty distracting heavy use of previous material from the franchise albeit rerecorded underscoring much of the movie's highlights; and that it's just a shame that Jackson didn't feel confident or comfortable enough to go with Shore's original music instead. This score as heard in the film is manipulative for all the wrong reasons.

Then again, maybe they tried it the other way first and for everyone who previewed it the fresh material simply lacked necessary impact, or they came to the conclusion (under duress) that the LotR music just resonated better, its superficiality not having the time to sink in before they had little choice but to lock shit down as deadlines neared.

There's a lot of talk and accepted opinion here about how this movie feels 'rushed' or 'messy', but I actually put a lot of that down to the score having a somewhat unwelcome knock-on effect on the movie's sense of flow and organics, because there's very little in the way of solid continuity to be heard and felt overall in the music - which significantly betrays what we've come to expect from Shore and Middle-Earth. A more uniform underscore with a stronger emotional narrative might have better propelled the story and really helped with this movie's apparent sloppiness.

Well said. It's not so much the chopping as it is the "cheap knock-off" effect that's the problem. There were many scenes in the film where "A Hobbit's Understanding" or the "Breaking of the Fellowship" is quoted to try and emulate the emotion that we heard in LotR, and it just feels so cheap, as if Jackson is trying to force the old nostalgic feelings for a scene that doesn't necessarily have them. And its not just the music, much of the film, with all its numerous LotR references felt like Jackson was trying to relive the glorious emotional heights of the OT. Unfortunately, it comes off as being cheap at times.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

Exactly! It's almost like PJ is no longer confident in his ability to create new, emotionally-impactful scenes, so instead he just resorts to ripping off his past work. I wouldn't say that he ever fully descends into self-parody, but I wish he was adapting The Hobbit out of a love for the book instead of a love of his earlier films.

Ok, maybe that's a bit extreme...

[Jilal 569]

Just in case anyone doesn't know, the choral cluster and string line in B minor for the Arkenstone that Doug referred to in the liner notes is heard at 3:03 in "My Dear Frodo".

[Laserschwert 475]

I only got the Special Edition version of the score, so I was wondering, does the normal version include the " unplugged, folksy" version of Neil Finn's " Song of the Lonely Mountain" as it was heard in the actual closing credits? That one was so much better, than the pop version on the SE soundtrack...

[Jay 37,373]

The songs are identical on both CDs, the SE version just adds 2 minutes of instrumental noise after the song proper ends that the standard OST doesn't have.

There is some music on the standard CD not on the SE CD though, see here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AjiRtgP4_o4TdHdFUExoRi1GMjlxRjl6V0hXY2JKU1E&output=html

[crocodile 8,018]

Is it just me or does Radagast's Bunny of Doom sled has its own thematic material? The end of the Dol Guldur track the the subsequent warg chase?

Karol

[Laserschwert 475]

The songs are identical on both CDs, the SE version just adds 2 minutes of instrumental noise after the song proper ends that the standard OST doesn't have.

There is some music on the standard CD not on the SE CD though, see here:

https://docs.google....U1E&output=html

Damnit... I'd really prefer the film version. When I was watching the credits I was pleasantly surprised that it wasn't the poppy version I knew from the CD.

[Jilal 569]

I never noticed the film version was different.

[Richard Penna 3,694]

Ugh, why were they so against putting film versions of things on these sets? I find it a bit patronising when album producers feel that listeners somehow can't handle 'un-popified' music.

Surely a better idea would have been to keep the RE as it is, and make the SE not only expanded, but also contain film mixes.

[Faleel 5,359]

I did not notice the song was different, only that it had a longer intro (like the LOTR song intro's)

[Henry B 50]

The songs are identical on both CDs, the SE version just adds 2 minutes of instrumental noise after the song proper ends that the standard OST doesn't have.

I really liked that "instrumental noise." Bizarrely out of place in a score like this, but not bad music.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

To each their own!

[crocodile 8,018]

One of the things I love about this score is how Shore treats his Mordor theme. It is clearly there but it can't find it's own conclusion yet. Almost ends with a question mark. Cool.

Karol

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

just like the nazgul theme...oh wait...

[mrbellamy 6,291]

Question about unreleased music...I don't know if this has been discussed, but does anyone remember the bouncy, driving, rhythmic cue that starts up after all the dwarves have arrived (except Thorin) and start running around and raiding Bilbo's pantry, and continues on as Gandalf is counting all the dwarves off one by one? Does that appear anywhere on either of the soundtracks?

[Jay 37,373]

There's a ton of unreleased music in the film, that's just one example

[mrbellamy 6,291]

Ah, oh well. Thanks. I didn't see a comprehensive list of the unreleased stuff anywhere and searching a few specific keywords didn't bring up any mentions of that particular cue. I didn't feel like hunting around anymore, after that

[gkgyver 1,645]

Honestly, it often feels as if the whole damn film was rescored after the soundtrack was put together.

[KK 3,307]

I can't wait to get my hands on the beautiful choral music for the Eagles scene at the end.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,552]

So, Incancus, are the 5.1 mixes of LOTR, the film mixes, or new surround mixes made espicially for the DVD-A?

[Alan 689]

It seems both versions of the soundtrack are just very generous versions of what we got with the LOTR soundtrack releases - discs full of alternates.

I had a thought about the Ringwraith music earlier. Doug seems to hint on his blog that the choral text is different in The Hobbit, so it isn't Revelation of the Ringwraiths that is being sung. I've not had time today to refer to Doug's book, but I seem to recall that he describes it's monochromatic sound as being a representation of the Wraith's singular goal and drive. What I thought was that Shore may have used the theme in The Hobbit with new text (in Dwarvish?) to illustrate Thorin's obsession with Azog and his singular goal to destroy him. While his companions are in extreme danger and are clinging on for their lives, Thorin is unable to focus on anything but confronting Azog and getting his revenge.

The same works in reverse, Azog doesn't care about the rest of Thorin's company. He wants Thorin for himself.

Maybe it's far fetched but it does match up quite well with the meaning behind the theme itself, especially now we know that the choral text has been changed.

[KK 3,307]

Here's my analysis/review of the score. Tell me what you guys think:

http://musicmusekk.wordpress.com/2012/12/28/the-hobbit-an-unexpected-journey-howard-shore/

- KK

[Richard Penna 3,694]

There's a ton of unreleased music in the film, that's just one example

This 'unreleased music' thing is confusing me - are you saying that the 'full score' blurb is simply untrue, or that the 'unreleased' bits are film versions of cues we have on the SE?

I'm seeing the film tomorrow and curious to hear how butchered this score is.

[Alan 689]

There's a ton of unreleased music in the film, that's just one example

This 'unreleased music' thing is confusing me - are you saying that the 'full score' blurb is simply untrue, or that the 'unreleased' bits are film versions of cues we have on the SE?

I'm seeing the film tomorrow and curious to hear how butchered this score is.

I think you'll be surprised by how un-butchered it actually sounds.

[gkgyver 1,645]

If he knows the album, he will notice.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Laserschwert 475]

Here's my analysis/review of the score. Tell me what you guys think:

http://musicmusekk.w...y-howard-shore/

- KK

A nice writedown, although I found at least two errors regarding track titles:

It's "Old Friends" instead of "Old Friend" and it's "Axe or Sword?" instead of "Axe and Sword"

Also you're wondering where to place "A Very Respectable Hobbit", while it's clearly part of the end credits. I'm not sure about the rest of the bonus tracks, but since I LOVE "A Very Respectable Hobbit", I was really happy to hear it in the cinema.

Also I might've been wrong about there being another version of "Song of the Lonely Mountain"... but strangely the thing felt really jarring on the soundtrack, but in the cinema it didn't at all to me.

[KK 3,307]

Thanks for the corrections. That's what you get when you're sleep deprived.

[Jay 37,373]

A Very Respectable Hobbit is not in the end credits. Dreaming Of Bag End is.

There's a ton of unreleased music in the film, that's just one example

This 'unreleased music' thing is confusing me - are you saying that the 'full score' blurb is simply untrue, or that the 'unreleased' bits are film versions of cues we have on the SE?

I'm seeing the film tomorrow and curious to hear how butchered this score is.

The "complete score" blurb was just categorically untrue, there are plenty of cues in between and during album tracks that are unreleased. Many for important scenes that would have always been in the film, not last minute re-inserts when it went from 2 films to three

[Richard Penna 3,694]

[crocodile 8,018]

I've decided not to worry too much about all of this. I'm pretty sure we'll get the complete works sooner or later. In the meantime we got a pretty awesome 2-hour album. LOTR OST's were also mostly CD's full of alternates, so I guess it's all worth to have in the end. It's so well put together that you almost don't need the film to follow the story (in a way, I mean). I can understand why some of these things weren't used but it makes for a awesome listening experience on album reagrdless. And I guess that was the point when producing it - to give us a feeling that we're actually participating in this story, even though some of these choices might not have been appropriate in the film. As much as I love all the Radagast material, it would have been almost too looney for already much-too-looney character. But as pure music it portrays him brilliantly.

BTW my absolutely loves the album.

Karol - who had this feeling the text of the so-called Nazgul theme was different

[Richard Penna 3,694]

Oh it doesn't worry me from a musical sense - and I agree that the album we have is exceptionally generous.

It's just frustratingly amusing how difficult it apparently is to get a soundtrack product description right. Apparently, even Doug thought this was complete.

[Laserschwert 475]

A Very Respectable Hobbit is not in the end credits. Dreaming Of Bag End is.

Damnit, obviously my memory is crap.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Oh it doesn't worry me from a musical sense - and I agree that the album we have is exceptionally generous.

It's just frustratingly amusing how difficult it apparently is to get a soundtrack product description right. Apparently, even Doug thought this was complete.

maybe it was complete 1st draft...

and then the producers wanted more LOTR connection and wall-to-wall score...

[Jay 37,373]

No way. There's no chance that some of the scenes in the film that have no version of their score on CD (such as the "I will not be responsible for his fate" scene and the scene outside Goblintown where Bilbo says he's helping them because they don't have a home) were originally unscored.

I think its just a simple case like many other OSTs before it: the CDs were locked before all cues were recorded.

Then somebody either gave Marketing bad information or somebody in Marketing mis-interpreted good information (of willingly chose to ignore it), and that led to the Amazon description for the SE CD claiming it's the complete score, and the sticker on the standard CD claiming that's the complete score.

Whatever the case, someone at WB really messed up big time, and their mistake will only get worse when the eventual CRs come out ("what is this new product? Amazon/the sticker already said I had the complete score!")

[crocodile 8,018]

Or maybe, Jason, Howard Shore chose the versions he wanted for the CD and everything that is not on it, was ommited for a reason to give you the best possible listening experience away from the film? Expanded OST, if you like? Why not leave it at that?

PR blurb are not uncommon (remember TPM: UE?) and even worse errors happen with specialty labels (like a wrong list of musicians on the recent release of Predator).

Karol

[Richard Penna 3,694]

We're not questioning the presentation Shore gave us - we're questioning why the blurb says it's the complete score when it's not.

[Jay 37,373]

Karol, I was not saying I find anything wrong with the presentation we got whatsoever. I love it!

I'm just stating that WB PR screwed up by announcing each version was "complete" when it is blatantly not, without even considering the film version vs album version cues. There are many cues simply not included.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[crocodile 8,018]

Karol, I was not saying I find anything wrong with the presentation we got whatsoever. I love it!

I'm just stating that WB PR screwed up by announcing each version was "complete" when it is blatantly not, without even considering the film version vs album version cues. There are many cues simply not included.

Oh yes, they clearly did. I read you wrong, sorry.

Karol

[gkgyver 1,645]

When the OST has a print on it that says "complete score" while a special edition exists with bonus and expanded tracks, not billed as complete, it was clear from the beginning that it was a marketing error.

My guess is that the OST is the presentation of the score as Howard Shore wants it to be presented, that it is the original version of tracks before the usual revisions/rewrite phase begins.

Consider that there is literally no track on album that wasn't altered in the film! There are too many proper rescores in the film for a few quick fixing sessions after everything was done.

[Faleel 5,359]

There are too many proper rescores in the film.

Uh, I thought it was confirmed, that all the cues were recorded "at the same time", and that PJ chose the ones he wanted for the film, and Shore chose the ones he wanted for the OST, a sort of customizable score if you will.

[KK 3,307]

No, I don't think that was it. The score on album was recorded first, but then the last few weeks of redoing sessions were spent on recording changes, resulting in the score as heard in film. At the time, Doug said thy were simply doing minor tweaks and adjustments, but it turned out to be more than that.