Howard Shore's An Unexpected Journey (Hobbit Part 1)

[Brónach 1,302]

BTW, doesnt the music start when thorin decides to confront azog? as I saw it on the scene, this music was 'thorin heroics motif' so unless thorin is another nazgul...

The way I remember it, it was when Thorin stood on the tree on slow motion and started running. And a pair of reaction shots of Azog.

[gkgyver 1,645]

To be honest, I always thought the Thorin/Azog scene was about Thorin's heroism and not Azog. Therefor I had no doubt that the music should reflect that.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

They stopped after Radagast drew the poison from that rodent.

my god hedgehogs are not rodents...

[KK 3,307]

Sounded great in the film.

I think some fans are just disappointed that Shore didn't write it, and are having tier prissy and bitchy reaction to it.

The theme is great but it gets a bit grating in film when you hear it play the same way so many times. The Fellowship theme never bothered me once like that. It's not even the theme so much as it is the way it's played with barely any variations. It sounds like it was tracked in several places.

If it is true that Azog's theme will make sense, and Doug certainly doesn't tell lies, then the wraith theme for Azog is probably the one that is least puzzling.

Putting the Azog moment aside, the deeper question then is not whether or not the film version is what Shore put on the page, the question is "he put it there on whose behalf?"

It still does not explain why cues like Samwise the Brave or Master Peregrin's Plan or Lost In Emyn Muil or Gondor Reborn were used and recorded verbatim. Those are instances, especially with Riddles In The Dark, where thematic content wasn't an issue, and Howard Shore is a skillful composer who can, and did, write fresh versions of those themes.

And I simply don't believe he would reuse such lengthy, exact quotes from LotR on his own behalf, especially since he never did it without reason on the album.

Indeed, I mentioned this above. It's why everything can't be as good and happy as Doug made it out to be. I'm sure the score was as it was on paper as Shore probably had to re-record those bits. But I don't think that was the music he intended to put against the picture.

[crocodile 8,017]

The theme is great but it gets a bit grating in film when you hear it play the same way so many times. The Fellowship theme never bothered me once like that. It's not even the theme so much as it is the way it's played with barely any variations. It sounds like it was tracked in several places.

This.

Karol

[Brónach 1,302]

So do we know which part of the OSTs would score the Thorin/Azog confrontation?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

They stopped after Radagast drew the poison from that rodent.

my god hedgehogs are not rodents...

Yeah Steef. Hedgehogs are marsupials.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

Sounded great in the film.

I think some fans are just disappointed that Shore didn't write it, and are having tier prissy and bitchy reaction to it.

This.

[crocodile 8,017]

So do we know which part of the OSTs would score the Thorin/Azog confrontation?

I guess that would be the last two minutes of Out of the Frying Pan.

You know starting with this great Dwarvish choral chanting somewhere after 4:00-minute mark.

Karol

[KK 3,307]

It's probably Out of the Frying-Pan, right after the awesome fanfare. When the choir starts chanting. The flow of the music would have fit that scene perfectly.

The opening of A Good Omen would have underscored the beautiful shots of the Eagles soaring across New Zealand (with the Nature's Reclamation choral statement in film scoring the actual rescue). And even though that wasn't used in film, the new music for that scene was also gorgeous and I would love to acquire it.

[Jonesy 55]

I love that fanfare.

[KK 3,307]

So do we know which part of the OSTs would score the Thorin/Azog confrontation?

I guess that would be the last two minutes of Out of the Frying Pan.

You know starting with this great Dwarvish choral chanting somewhere after 4:00-minute mark.

Karol

Speaking of Dwarvish chanting, when Gandalf starting throwing the flaming pinecones, I believe the underscoring music featured the heavy chanting from "My Dear Frodo". But I'm not sure it was a new cue or just the same track. Can anyone clarify this?

I love that fanfare.

As do I. It would have been awesome to have heard that in the scene!

[gkgyver 1,645]

I paid attention but there were too many sound effects to hear it clearly. My guess was that it is a new recording. I thought the fanfare that was cut from OotFP was meant to score that pinecone throwing. Because the tail end of the fanfare is still in the film.

[KK 3,307]

Well that's where the fanfare would have played I suppose. Maybe before it, or after the tree crashes down. But somewhere in that chapter, I could here the low vigorous male chanting playing out in prologue fashion. It'd be cool if that was a new cue.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

The theme is great but it gets a bit grating in film when you hear it play the same way so many times. The Fellowship theme never bothered me once like that. It's not even the theme so much as it is the way it's played with barely any variations. It sounds like it was tracked in several places.

This.

Karol

i think the fellowship theme in FOTR suffers more of that than the misty mountains theme....

In the moria sequences alone there are, IIRC, almost three note by note equally orchestrated statements of it).

[crocodile 8,017]

Maybe for some people, sure. But then again, Fellowship theme is carefully developed throughout that film. And I counted two statements in Moria.

Karol

[gkgyver 1,645]

The only problem the company theme (that's what I'd like to call it) has is that it's basically finished when the journey starts. I liked the idea in Fellowship that the theme assembled on the way to Rivendell, the same way the fellowship assembles on the way. It's a concept not practicable in the Hobbit since the company is complete once they set out from Bag End, but I'm sure there will be more variations following in the two other films.

[KK 3,307]

Not note-for-note at all. Just because they're both very heroic and share a similar presentation doesn't make them note for note. And it flows better in that case. Not only did it fit the moments of the film, it flowed naturally in the music and worked because both themes share the same set piece.

In Fellowship, the theme never felt like it was randomly popping out like the Misty Mountains Theme. And the fellowship theme goes through such extraordinary development right from the start that made the theme so much more interesting to listen to, even in film. There's a sense of musical direction there from start to finish. From the brief hints as the company gathers, to the grand statements as the company departs Rivendell to the more reflective statements as the company is scattered. That kind of story-telling and manipulation isn't as prominent with the misty mountains theme.

Not to say there's no musical direction with the new theme. But its often repeated in the "Roast Mutton" action fashion and it seems to pop up whenever the dwarves attack. It's at that point you feel like you've seen/heard this before.

[Brónach 1,302]

The moment I thought it was too much was when Gandalf appears to the rescue and tells them to fight. The later statement from the scene was fine. (I am a fan of having such a theme explode in the middle of a scene after trying to earn it than before the heroics.)

[gkgyver 1,645]

In Fellowship, the theme never felt like it was randomly popping out like the Misty Mountains Theme. And the fellowship theme goes through such extraordinary development right from the start that made the theme so much more interesting to listen to, even in film. There's a sense of musical direction there from start to finish. From the brief hints as the company gathers, to the grand statements as the company departs Rivendell to the more reflective statements as the company is scattered. That kind of story-telling and manipulation isn't as prominent with the misty mountains theme.

Alas, that's what happens when you have your main themes written by Neil Finn

Not to say there's no musical direction with the new theme. But its often repeated in the "Roast Mutton" action fashion and it seems to pop up whenever the dwarves attack. It's at that point you feel like you've seen/heard this before.

As you know, there are two versions of that Misty Mountains statement. That the really brassy and heroic one was used instead of the slightly more subtle variation fits nicely with the overal impression of wanting to be as obvious as possible on the director's part, with reused music and whatnot.

[KK 3,307]

The moment I thought it was too much was when Gandalf appears to the rescue and tells them to fight. The later statement from the scene was fine. (I am a fan of having such a theme explode in the middle of a scene after trying to earn it than before the heroics.)

Gandalf seemed fond of shouting "Run!" or "Fight!" in this film. It was strange. When he came to rescue in Goblintown and shouting at them to fight, I couldn't tell if that was some sort of reference the Siege of Gondor or something, because thats what I thought of. And it was a bit distracting, because you'd think they'd know they'd have to fight to get out of there at that point. Considering there are so many little references to the original trilogy, I thought this might have been one of them, it could just be me though.

Minor quibble on my part I guess.

[tannhauser 101]

I love the MM theme in the film, Its not at all without variations. The first statement in The World is ahead is beautiful with that soft percussion and its entry in an unexpected key, the various sections of the orchestra calling and answering the phrases. Then theres the rousing variation in the film version of Roast Mutton, which is first stated partially then after a transition more fully played but still not the complete theme. The variations heard in Over Hill are fantastic with Shore beggining the cue with a near quote on the horns then progressing through various harmonizations and building orchestrations until we finally hear the epic setting from the trailer with thorins theme as a heraldic trumpet counterpoint. The next statement, at the climax of the goblintown battle is in a similar quick tempo to what we heard earlier in roast mutton, but this time we finally hear the entire theme stated in full, which I found incredibly satisfying and was sorry this statement didnt make the album. The next variation, which is not on the album either, is a somber, nostalgic reading of the theme after the escape from goblintown. Finally at the beginning of the credits we get another new reading on strings. Those who say the theme is the same every time, or its cut and pasted every time the dwarfs have a heroic moment need to listen more carefully, I think. Shore has indeed made this melody his own,and handled it very tastefully and intelligently.

[KK 3,307]

I wish they included the choral humming at 6:58-ish in Brass Buttons. It sounds like it would have worked beautifully in the film.

[gkgyver 1,645]

They used it.

In the end credits.

[KK 3,307]

Did they? Oh, I didn't want to sit through Neil Finn's awful song, so I left. I usually don't sit for end credits anyways.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[mrbellamy 6,287]

I paid attention but there were too many sound effects to hear it clearly. My guess was that it is a new recording. I thought the fanfare that was cut from OotFP was meant to score that pinecone throwing. Because the tail end of the fanfare is still in the film.

Is it possible that the fanfare was supposed to play during the big slow-motion shot of Thorin rising to face Azog? I wonder if they had originally decided that would be a big heroic moment, and then PJ changed his mind at the last minute and wanted it to be more darkly dramatic.

[Incanus 5,715]

To be honest, I always thought the Thorin/Azog scene was about Thorin's heroism and not Azog. Therefor I had no doubt that the music should reflect that.

Indeed. Shore's original version heard on the OST is indeed about the Dwarven heroism, not about the evil of the situation. It hearkens back to the dramatic music of An Ancient Enemy, another recollection of the meeting of these two characters. Especially when the music is so intently focused when we see Thorin on the screen. The dichotomy of seeing the hero in action and hearing the most violent of the Mordor themes at that moment is a bit baffling. And somehow I feel no Orc should earn the Nazgûl theme at this point, not even albino Azog. The past use of the material doesn't seem to warrant it here.

So the explanation has to be a pretty good one for this.

I paid attention but there were too many sound effects to hear it clearly. My guess was that it is a new recording. I thought the fanfare that was cut from OotFP was meant to score that pinecone throwing. Because the tail end of the fanfare is still in the film.

Is it possible that the fanfare was supposed to play during the big slow-motion shot of Thorin rising to face Azog? I wonder if they had originally decided that would be a big heroic moment, and then PJ changed his mind at the last minute and wanted it to be more darkly dramatic.

My guess is that the fanfares underscore Gandalf's pinecone magics as it is the momentary turn of the tide in the battle, a small victory for the Dwarves in a desperate situation.

[indy4 155]

So, what release is everybody recommending? Or should I just buy a few tracks on iTunes? My main concern is paying a lot of money for a bunch of rehashed cues from LotR.

[Incanus 5,715]

The score as presented on the album is not a rehash but an original work with references to the older themes from LotR. These do sometimes deliberately harken back to the original but never quite repeat material verbatim. The score in the film has many sections that sounded as if they were re-recorded from the LotR scores but the soundtrack album presents Shore's original intentions.

So I would recommend the Special Edition in any case for a more complete version of the music. Also if you liked the Over the Misty Mountains Cold melody used by Shore in the score then you should get the Roast Mutton track from the regular OST as it has an alternate and more powerful version of that theme (which was also used in the film).

[indy4 155]

Thanks Incanus!

[Incanus 5,715]

There are of course moments in the film that beg very familiar settings of the older themes like the arrival to Rivendell and the establishing music for the Shire but those I think just provide strong continuity and a dose of nostalgia in the best possible way. But Shore adds some subtle changes in the orchestrations etc. to make it sound new and fresh but still familiar. In the film there were quite a few of those repurposed phrases from the LotR scores added in the later recording process I guess at the behest of the film makers. These do stick out to those who know the scores well as almost identical to the originals, an eyebrow raising moment to be sure. On the album Shore's music is presented for the lack of a better word in a much more untampered form.

The Special Edition provides 2 hours worth of the music and the regular edition about 15 minutes less but the minuscule difference in the price makes getting the SE a no brainer.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

To be honest, I always thought the Thorin/Azog scene was about Thorin's heroism and not Azog. Therefor I had no doubt that the music should reflect that.

Indeed. Shore's original version heard on the OST is indeed about the Dwarven heroism, not about the evil of the situation. It hearkens back to the dramatic music of An Ancient Enemy, another recollection of the meeting of these two characters. Especially when the music is so intently focused when we see Thorin on the screen. The dichotomy of seeing the hero in action and hearing the most violent of the Mordor themes at that moment is a bit baffling. And somehow I feel no Orc should earn the Nazgûl theme at this point, not even albino Azog. The past use of the material doesn't seem to warrant it here.

So the explanation has to be a pretty good one for this.

I hope they go with the honest way and say 'PJ wanted it. period. Part of film scoring. etc.'

Far fetched explantions to directors questionable choices would ruin the great work of doug in analising this music.

[TownerFan 4,983]

Am I the only one to hear some lovely nods to John Barry's lyrical gestures in the bonus tracks "Erebor" and especially "Dwarf-Lords"?

[Incanus 5,715]

Am I the only one to hear some lovely nods to John Barry's lyrical gestures in the bonus tracks "Erebor" and especially "Dwarf-Lords"?

I actually thought so as well from the first listen.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

i think the nazgul part had an underscore rythm with a slight resemblance to battle of the heroes beginning. Could it have been another of PJ's suggestions?

[TownerFan 4,983]

Any of you working on a themes breakdown/track-by-track analysis?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,715]

Any of you working on a themes breakdown/track-by-track analysis?

I might do one in the near future when time permits. I still have to read Doug Adams' liner notes for some pointers though.

[LongTallJodie 59]

To be honest, I always thought the Thorin/Azog scene was about Thorin's heroism and not Azog.

While I also think the final film's Nazgul music for this scene is out of place and WAY over the top, I'm not so sure I agree that Thorin was being particularly heroic. That part struck me as Thorin giving in to raw vengeance, throwing away his life while his comrades were about to fall. That's just my take on it, but if the producers likewise saw this as a "Thorin succumbs to the dark side" moment, I can see why they'd want to change the mood of the music.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

aragorn decapitated the mouth of sauron and nothing happened...

[KK 3,307]

Any of you working on a themes breakdown/track-by-track analysis?

I'll take a crack at one. If time allows it, I should have something for this week.

[Incanus 5,715]

Good! Perhaps I will get my soundtrack this week. Damn unexpected delays at the store!

Has anyone spotted the motif resembling the Drive of the Fellowship in Brass Buttons (also in Under Hill), which plays first when the Goblins drag the Dwarves before the Great Goblin and then amidst the chanting deep choir underscoring the Dwarves' escape from the Goblin Town?

[gkgyver 1,645]

i think the nazgul part had an underscore rythm with a slight resemblance to battle of the heroes beginning. Could it have been another of PJ's suggestions?

I don't think Pj would request a direct quote from a specific John Williams piece. I also don't think it sounds like BotH to begin with.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

i think the nazgul part had an underscore rythm with a slight resemblance to battle of the heroes beginning. Could it have been another of PJ's suggestions?

I don't think Pj would request a direct quote from a specific John Williams piece. I also don't think it sounds like BotH to begin with.

After king kong and hobbit... i think PJ capable of asking anything to the poor shore :/

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

i think the nazgul part had an underscore rythm with a slight resemblance to battle of the heroes beginning. Could it have been another of PJ's suggestions?

I don't think Pj would request a direct quote from a specific John Williams piece. I also don't think it sounds like BotH to begin with.

Me neither. But I actually liked the arrangement of the Nazgul theme. Or at the very least, I'd like to own it.

Still jarring though.

[Faleel 5,359]

Saw the film, was the music in the prologue microedited on the OST? or is Old Friends merged with My Dear Frodo in the film

and the handling of the score in the film is nowhere near as bad as TPM IMHO (aside from the atrocities of the Nazgul theme and cut Out of the frying Pan fanfare)

TYPED ON WII

Saw the film, was the music in the prologue microedited on the OST? or is Old Friends merged with My Dear Frodo in the film

and the handling of the score in the film is nowhere near as bad as TPM IMHO (aside from the atrocities of the Nazgul theme and cut Out of the frying Pan fanfare)

TYPED ON WII

[Jay 37,371]

Part of My Dear Frodo is replaced by a rescore in the final film

Old Friends is a series of short cues joined together for the album