Howard Shore's An Unexpected Journey (Hobbit Part 1)

[Incanus 5,715]

Thanks for all the info, Incancus!

You are welcome BloodyPudding.

And I am completely used to my name being spelt wrong.

[KK 3,307]

Thanks for all the info, Incancus!

And I am completely used to my name being spelt wrong.

If only it were your name. But alas, you're a man of many names. Olorin in the West, Mithrandir in the East and simply Gandalf to many of your small friends.

[Incanus 5,715]

Tharkûn to the Dwarves and Incanus in the South. No wonder people get them all mixed.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,715]

A serious conundrum FootBag, a serious conundrum.

Also to those who have the soundtrack and are more musically literate than I am, what exactly is Smaug's theme. Did I understand correctly that there are two different separate ideas assigned to him? I can more easily spot the sinuous and viciously threatening one in My Dear Frodo and A Good Omen but the other one played on strings accompanied by the bass drum and the Tibetan gongs in Axe or Sword? is a more nebulous one to me at the moment.

[Brónach 1,302]

The themes here are a bit subdued for me.

[Jilal 569]

A serious conundrum FootBag, a serious conundrum.

Also to those who have the soundtrack and are more musically literate than I am, what exactly is Smaug's theme. Did I understand correctly that there are two different separate ideas assigned to him? I can more easily spot the sinuous and viciously threatening one in My Dear Frodo and A Good Omen but the other one played on strings accompanied by the bass drum and the Tibetan gongs in Axe or Sword? is a more nebulous one to me at the moment.

The one played in My Dear Frodo is actually an inversion of the theme played in Axe or Sword?.

In Axe or Sword? it is:

E-E-F-Ab; E-F-Ab-Ab-A-Cb

In My Dear Frodo it is:

C-B-C-B-Ab-A

[Incanus 5,715]

Thank you for the info Alexander.

[Jilal 569]

You're welcome!

The horn statement at 6:00 sounds very much like Smaug's theme as well - the same kind of thing happens here (taaaaaaaa-taa-taa-taaaaaaaaa, only faster) - that looks a bit strange here but I can't explain it in musical terms.

[gkgyver 1,645]

A serious conundrum FootBag, a serious conundrum.

Also to those who have the soundtrack and are more musically literate than I am, what exactly is Smaug's theme. Did I understand correctly that there are two different separate ideas assigned to him? I can more easily spot the sinuous and viciously threatening one in My Dear Frodo and A Good Omen but the other one played on strings accompanied by the bass drum and the Tibetan gongs in Axe or Sword? is a more nebulous one to me at the moment.

The one played in My Dear Frodo is actually an inversion of the theme played in Axe or Sword?.

In Axe or Sword? it is:

E-E-F-Ab; E-F-Ab-Ab-A-Cb

In My Dear Frodo it is:

C-B-C-B-Ab-A

Actually, the liner notes say that the melodic line on top is derived from the Necromancer/Sauron theme (the one on woodwinds in The White Council and The Hill Of Sorcery), while the gesture truly belonging to Smaug is the harmony underneath, a fluctuation between the chords F minor and F major.

[Incanus 5,715]

Thank you for the clarification Georg.

Doug is considerate and refrains from revealing the true identity of the Necromancer in the liner notes so as not to spoil things for those who have not read the LotR.

I can't wait to have a longer discussion on these things here with you guys, but it will probably have to wait after Christmas as I am leaving for holidays and am away from the computer for a whole week after tomorrow! Perfect time to let oneself to immerse in the music in relative peace and quiet.

[Richard Penna 3,695]

Doug is considerate and refrains from revealing the true identity of the Necromancer in the liner notes so as not to spoil things for those who have not read the LotR.

Not to worry, already had that one spoilt (I think) in this very thread

Luckily, I'm not overly worried about spoilers for this film. With it being a precursor to LotR, it's inherent that certain things will/won't happen. It's more the experience of watching it.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[crocodile 8,019]

Thank you for the clarification Georg.

Doug is considerate and refrains from revealing the true identity of the Necromancer in the liner notes so as not to spoil things for those who have not read the LotR.

I can't wait to have a longer discussion on these things here with you guys, but it will probably have to wait after Christmas as I am leaving for holidays and am away from the computer for a whole week after tomorrow! Perfect time to let the score sink in relative peace and quiet.

Don't take too much time off, Inkh Khanus!

Karol

[Incanus 5,715]

I will return on the 30th day of December at evening. Look for my coming then at edge of the wild at JWFan, the Last Homely House between the Sea of Junk Mail and the Mountains of Internet Misinformation.

Plus, Shore already spoiled it anyway by using a particular theme for the scenes with the Necromancer...

Yeah. I was just about to say the same thing (damn I am getting slow. I think I need a holiday). The music itself is a pretty good indicator of who is looming behind the walls of Dol Guldur, a dead sure give-away.

[crocodile 8,019]

I shall look to your coming on the first light of the fifth day, at dawn I will look to the east.

Karol

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,715]

Don't take too much time off, Inkh Khanus!

The guy is known for leaving at the worst possible time, when things are getting really messy... and he always comes back at the end of the battle to get all the glory! He's a fuckin' opportunist!

Also know as Gandalf the Killstealer or Gandalf the XP hog.

Oh and this score is damn addictive. I can't get the mysterious ethereal melody heard in Radagast the Brown and The White Council out of my head. The one that sways up and down hypnotically and is accompanied by the soft choir. Insistenly haunting. I wondered in the past if this is related to Radagast or the Necromancer and as both scenes refer to both characters, I can't quite figure it out. The swaying motif is definitely related to Radagast's nervous sewsawing and edgy music but I am not sure if the eerie melody would suit him. Perhaps Mr. Adams can shed some light on this at some point.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

Don't take too much time off, Inkh Khanus!

The guy is known for leaving at the worst possible time, when things are getting really messy... and he always comes back at the end of the battle to get all the glory! He's a fuckin' opportunist!

Remember last year? He left for 2 weeks when the first Hobbit teaser came out? And you were freaking out! Good times.

Oh God...I've been here for a year!....far too long for my sanity to bear...

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

I'll see you on the other side BB!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,373]

Well, here are some new insights from Doug from his blog

The producers did not ask Shore to rewrite the score after it was complete. Nothing of the kind happened.

Really? But I assume *something* must have been taken into consideration, otherwise the score wouldn't differ that much on album compared to the film.

Every score in The Lord of the Rings trilogy was subject to revisions, alterations, and edits. Concept pieces were created, early drafts were made, pieces were tweaked or revised entirely. It was all part of the collaborative process that Shore and Jackson use. The Hobbit was exactly the same, it just so happened that -- occasionally -- different choices were made for the album than were made for the film.

Of course, to a degree, this was also the case with the LOTR albums, but The Hobbit was a different kind of album. Something between the suites of the LOTR OSTs and the linearity of the CRs ... though leaning heavily toward the latter. It needed to flow in its own beautiful way.

You're simply hearing two expressions. None of that was the result of conflict. It was just a way to use this unique creative process to its full advantage.

http://www.musicoflo...mment-742631870

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

Sounds like apologist poodoo...

Nobody is really saying it has been a hearted argument between the two parties, the producers and/or PJ could well have politely asked that it their very humble opinion these scenes need ar rescoring.

I mean, its so obvious that the album has and sounds like a composers original intentions, with small hints to older themes wanting it as a standalone compostion, and the film version is the result of the producers wanting to play it safe.

We know the industry is like this already and everyone remain happy.

Most rescores in film are a good thing (see binary sunset, or this very eagle finale) anyway. in this case its great because we will get the other new compositions from the CRs. so we will have both versions unlike LOTR where many threatrical versions remain unreleased.

[tannhauser 101]

I love the piece for wood flute, lute, and harp heard in rivendell. According to the credits its called The Valley of Imladris, composed and produced by Howard Shore. Strange to see him involved in diegetic music. Cant wait to hear it on the CRs.

Any ideas as to why bilbos theme is almost completely dropped from the film? Its only heard once, on a french horn, when Gandalf says "Youll have a tale or two to tell when you get back". This seems to set up the theme nicely, i listened for it thereafter, but nothing, until the end of the credits. Shore seems to use the shire theme as a theme for bilbo, with some developments including a great new unreleased heroic setting as bilbo saves thorin. The new bilbo theme is really great, and the one theme doug said hed come out of the film whistling. Its apparent abandonment is for me the single greatest mystery of this score.

[KK 3,307]

Sounds like apologist poodoo...

Nobody is really saying it has been a hearted argument between the two parties, the producers and/or PJ could well have politely asked that it their very humble opinion these scenes need ar rescoring.

I mean, its so obvious that the album has and sounds like a composers original intentions, with small hints to older themes wanting it as a standalone compostion, and the film version is the result of the producers wanting to play it safe.

We know the industry is like this already and everyone remain happy.

Most rescores in film are a good thing (see binary sunset, or this very eagle finale) anyway. in this case its great because we will get the other new compositions from the CRs. so we will have both versions unlike LOTR where many threatrical versions remain unreleased.

To be honest, I agree with you. I have the utmost respect for Doug, but I think the score in the film was not meant to have turned out the way it did. And Doug being in a position where he can make no criticism of either party, must simply explain what's there to the best of his abilities (which he will do quite while). I suppose at the moment, I just remain unconvinced.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Richard Penna 3,695]

So they include a stupid clip of the dwarves singing about knives, but don't include a proper piece of music actually by Shore?

As good as these sets are, it shows what happens when you try to satisfy two markets with the same product.

[crocodile 8,019]

I love the piece for wood flute, lute, and harp heard in rivendell. According to the credits its called The Valley of Imladris, composed and produced by Howard Shore. Strange to see him involved in diegetic music. Cant wait to hear it on the CRs.

Yeah I loved this bit as well.

Karol

[InTheCity 140]

Score is very very bright and too close to capture the majesty going on. Wish we had Kurlander.

[Jilal 569]

And this:

[King Mark 3,631]

ok, so when I'm going to listen to the album it's not the same score I heard in the film.

I heard in the film a lot of themes from LotR, but I thought they were somewhat improved in most case

and most of the music seemed a lot louder and majestic than LotR

[KK 3,307]

and most of the music seemed a lot louder and majestic than LotR

Well, I don't know about that. But there were themes in there which you'd think wouldn't belong in there. But according to Doug, they 're all there for a reason.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[crocodile 8,019]

ok, so when I'm going to listen to the album it's not the same score I heard in the film.

I heard in the film a lot of themes from LotR, but I thought they were somewhat improved in most case

and most of the music seemed a lot louder and majestic than LotR

There are a lot of LOTR theme reprised on the album as well, some of them you don't hear in the film. But where the album differs from the film score is that there is also a lot of new material on it.

Karol

[KK 3,307]

I went into HMV today and was totally blown away by how many Hobbit CDs were on for sale. I mean the few Soundtrack CDs they have are usually for the mainstream blockbuster stuff like TDKR or Twilight. But the Hobbit CDs were displayed on all the shelves in multiple sections (found a ton in pop/rock section too). It made me so happy to see a quality score in stock like that

[InTheCity 140]

I can't read the whole thread but can someone tell me the differences between the Hobbit recordings and the LOTR? I have excellent speakers and I can barely listen to the hobbit without getting fatigue from the high frequencies. Anyone else notice this? Just the general presence of the orchestra is too much - it makes the clusters work less well.

[Jay 37,373]

Nobody here has any information about the recording of The Hobbit. There is nothing in the CD booklet about it either. Your best bet would be to ask Doug on his blog, or watch this video

http://insidemovies.ew.com/2012/12/05/the-hobbit-score-howard-shore/

[Ollie 1,059]

Just got back from The Hobbit and quite frankly, had no one mentioned it, I never would have noticed the changes.

[Quintus 5,399]

You wasn't that big on the LotR scores to begin with, were you?

[Ollie 1,059]

Yes I am.

But it's nowhere near as bad as what happened with the prequels.

[KK 3,307]

Weren't you a bit distracted by the Nazgul theme?

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

He is not a fan of the music

Just got back from The Hobbit and quite frankly, had no one mentioned it, I never would have noticed the changes.

Most people didnt notice the TPM edits on fisrt sight in the film, even neither in the UE release.... (myself included - i just started to notice when racer and TPM had music not in the film....).

And duel of the fates concert version over the duel is kick ass and iconic for most people, even if it is totally awfully tracked (the original version was so much better...)

AOTC and ROTS are another matter. since the're are planned scenes with trackd music, music from the other films, etc....

In hobbit, the result is better because it seems that shore did manage to record everything the director wanted. But in TPM all material used was from the same film...

[Quintus 5,399]

George Lucas might have taken the shears to John's music but at no point when watching those movies did I think, "gee, that's cheap."

Jackson's treatment of his score is much, much worse imo. He (and perhaps the nervous marketing team) seemed to apply a "lowest common denomination" approach to making the audience "feel" Middle-Earth this time around, as if fearful of failing to engage and affect in the way LotR managed to do so profoundly. It's disrespectful to the fans; let alone the composer.

[Jilal 569]

There appears to be some music in the White Council scenes which is not be found on the album.

I guess most of the album takes are "concert versions" of Shore's music. There are a few bars missing here and there. The edits are quite noticeable in the film. Especially the transition from the original WB logo music to the alternate.

[Ollie 1,059]

I was horrified at the way Williams music was treated in TPM. It was very distracting and annoying. It got worse with the tracking in ROTS and AOTC.

Of course The Hobbit is a much more entertaining movie than those three, I was actually engrossed in the film so perhaps that may be a reason for my supposed ignorance.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

In my case the CD was released a few months before the film went out. So I knew the score very very well already. The edits were very obvious.

To be honest I didn't notice a lot of tinkering in The Hobbit.

[Ollie 1,059]

I didn't either.

In all seriousness, I have so much film music I don't worry about analyzing it anymore, I just listen to the music. If it's changed in the film, so be it. I have the CD to listen to.

[Quintus 5,399]

In my case the CD was released a few months before the film went out. So I knew the score very very well already. The edits were very obvious.

To be honest I didn't notice a lot of tinkering in The Hobbit.

It's not the tinkering that's the issue here. It's the ultimately pretty distracting heavy use of previous material from the franchise albeit rerecorded underscoring much of the movie's highlights; and that it's just a shame that Jackson didn't feel confident or comfortable enough to go with Shore's original music instead. This score as heard in the film is manipulative for all the wrong reasons.

Then again, maybe they tried it the other way first and for everyone who previewed it the fresh material simply lacked necessary impact, or they came to the conclusion (under duress) that the LotR music just resonated better, its superficiality not having the time to sink in before they had little choice but to lock shit down as deadlines neared.

There's a lot of talk and accepted opinion here about how this movie feels 'rushed' or 'messy', but I actually put a lot of that down to the score having a somewhat unwelcome knock-on effect on the movie's sense of flow and organics, because there's very little in the way of solid continuity to be heard and felt overall in the music - which significantly betrays what we've come to expect from Shore and Middle-Earth. A more uniform underscore with a stronger emotional narrative might have better propelled the story and really helped with this movie's apparent sloppiness.