The Desolation of Smaug SPOILERS ALLOWED Discussion Thread

[Quintus 5,399]

Yes, I thought the Bree prologue was an intelligent way of giving purpose and direction to the expanded version of The Hobbit, especially for those confused by the lack of defined direction in the last film. It's good way of bridging both trilogies and it's pure Tolkien. While the rest may not necessarily follow up on that, the prologue on itself is quite good.

For me it was pandering to the uninitiated. Which is fine of course, but I'd have preferred that exposition written in in a different, less obvious way. Coupled with Jacko's cameo, it just came off a little too checklisty. Just another tie-in with LotR, a spot of cosy sightseeing for the fans. A bit similar to having C3PO in Phantom Menace, as built by Darth Vader.

But really, it's a minor grievance.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Like Marian said, the scenes comes from Tolkien. It's inclusion is valid.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

And wasn't that Figwit at Thranduil's gate? Haven't seen that mentioned anywhere.

That wouldn't make any sense, unless he's doing double duty in Rivendell and Mirkwood. But I didn't pay that much attention to the guards to remember if the actor has been reused.

[Quintus 5,399]

Like Marian said, the scenes comes from Tolkien. It's inclusion is valid.

But this is a movie adaptation. And possibly the most excessively long one ever made. With the mere second part of a brisk original story taking nearly three hours to tell and still with no end in sight by the time the credits roll, I'm looking for unimportant things that can be cut, not added. I don't think Bree's inclusion is valid at all.

It's just more Jackson blubber and it's lazy filmic storytelling. Leave it for the EE if you absolutely must.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,349]

Well, it tells us that Thorin still thinks his father is alive.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,349]

We learn that the movie has started...

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[KK 3,307]

Nah, nothing about the TTT prologue was cheap. That was a very effective and well done seagueway into the middle chapter of the trilogy.

[Faleel 5,349]

seagueway.

......

slipup?

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Barnald 365]

If they add the Thrain flashbacks in the EE, will that validate the prologue in your eyes BB?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[crocodile 8,016]

According to the design book I got for Christmas Thrain was supposed to be a prisoner of Necromancer in Dol Guldur and there are several design pictures in that book. Strangely enough, there is no mention of it being axed from the film.

Of course you guys probably already knew that.

Karol

[Barnald 365]

It was the same with the Chronicles book of AUJ. That had sections on the Old Took's party, the Hobbiton Marketplace, and even the High Fells

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

the prologue is fine, as it is tolkien lore and explain changes made.

But i think it should have been placed somewhere in the middle of AUJ or DOS, not as a prologue.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Why?

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

after a year waiting to see the next movie...it's like...boring, you are expecting to see the company doing something...

TTT prologue was action packed beautifully inserted.

[Quintus 5,399]

I agree with Manuel in as far as above all else I find its placement jarring.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

How would you have like to see it open, Leigh?

[Quintus 5,399]

Just as it is after the Bree moment, with a couple of extra establishing shots and recap hints I suppose. Later in the movie the Bree flashback should come in just before we cut to Gandalf languishing in his cage.

Peter should have hired me to sort his shit out.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Why do they need to change the AUJ EE?

They never changed Gollum in FOTR?

When he breaks the door and his hands appear, they have think fingers. In the next shot, where smaug steps on people, he has his new slender fingers-wings. it is not as if PJ does not do cgi changes in the special edition of the movies anymore.

They changed smaug in one shot and left the old model in another... it is just strange.

Anyway, seeing the George Lucas trajectory Jackson is having, expect FOTR gollum and TTT/ROTK wargs updates in 2021, for the films 20th anniversary. I'm sure he will do it.

Just as it is after the Bree moment, with a couple of extra establishing shots and hints I suppose. Later in the movie the Bree flashback should come in just before we cut to Gandalf languishing in his cage.

That's a good placement!

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Quintus 5,399]

The pacing in the latter half can only be improved upon. The entire wounded Kili subplot and ten minutes of dragon antics should be gutted and binned.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

But then the connection between Tauriel and Kili would not be so strong. You need that for the next film!

[Quintus 5,399]

Oh shit, you're probably right about their plot line.

Ugh, I can't be bothered with that crap.

[Glóin the Dark 1,222]

We learn that the movie has started...

I think that's the best description of what this prologue is for!

I don't mind it, myself (in fact, I rather like it - despite the rather clunky dialogue and crude depictions of villains lurking in every corner). It concisely summarises three aspects of the narrative (that Thorin is being hunted, that he wants the Arkenstone, and that Bilbo is brought in to help him get it from the dragon), though surely none of these points actually requires a prologue sequence to establish it. While it's presented as an introduction whose goal is to take care of these plot points, the feeling I get is the other way around - that the plot points have been wangled in to give some semblance of narrative purpose to the introduction. Its real purpose is a purely formal one: Peter Jackson's Middle-earth films are supposed to have some sort of frontispiece sandwiched between the main title screen and the story proper. All in all, I find it both inoffensive and inconsequential.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

All that shit may not make sense in DoS, but it might pay of in the next one, dude.

[Quintus 5,399]

Which isn't ideally what you want from a move when seeing one nor when making one, I'd have thought.

I suppose another ultimately fundamental issue I have with Jackson's Bree in both its filmic encarnations is that it just doesn't look anything like the fantastically evocative pub I imaged as written by Tolkien. There is no thick, smoky atmosphere; it doesn't feel warm and inviting as well as dangerous at the same time and it's nowhere near as packed out and merry with voices and song as I would have liked.

Tolkien's Bree was never a complete dive like it is in the movies.

[Glóin the Dark 1,222]

There is an inn, a pretty sinister and unpleasant old inn if I'm honest with you,

Beneath an old grey hill.

[Quintus 5,399]

Sounds like a lot of working man's taverns I've drank in. Rough as dogs but great people with plenty of stories to tell!

Barliman and Nob were great hosts and in spite of their dodgy cliental were most welcoming.

[MedigoScan 324]

could be that you are just projecting

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I just saw it. It was alright considering I haven't seen the first film. I thought the HFR was horrible.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,364]

I am 99% positive that that is the case (that whatever prologue they had planned for Film 2 will now open TABA, and the Bree prologue was 100% shot during this summer's pickups)

The Bree prologue seems to exist only to end on the "we're going to need a burglar" line to transition to Bilbo in the current time frame. Surely in the original 2 film structure, after they get dropped off on the eagle's carroc, there would have been some scenes of them traveling before the spotting of the bear and the chase to Beorn's house.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

I don't mind it, myself (in fact, I rather like it - despite the rather clunky dialogue and crude depictions of villains lurking in every corner). It concisely summarises three aspects of the narrative (that Thorin is being hunted, that he wants the Arkenstone, and that Bilbo is brought in to help him get it from the dragon), though surely none of these points actually requires a prologue sequence to establish it.

It tells us that Gandalf is actually the original driving force behind the whole expedition, because he has an interest in getting rid of Smaug, and that's why he supports the dwarves and "provides" Bilbo. Which was an important enough point for Tolkien to write an entire short story about it (from which this scene is taken).

Unless that was already established in AUJ, which I don't remember too well.

[Jay 37,364]

In AUJ, during the White Council, Gandalf briefly talks about the dragon being on his mind, and that it would be bad if Sauron got him under his control. This is reinforced in the AUJ EE, where Elrond asks Gandalf about this as well before the Council meeting. That's it though

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The wizards concern about the Dragon was mentioned during the White Council. But not that Mithrandir was the architect behind the Quest.

What still needs to be made clear is why Sauron would have an interest in the Lonely Mountain.

[Jay 37,364]

Well, I'm sure Sauron would love to have Smaug on his side, to have him help burn down his enemies, and take over the world easier.

As to why he'll still send Azog and Bolg there after Smaug is dead, I have no freaking clue. Probably something about wanting to kill all those elves, humans, and dwarves together before they rally other folk together and form a more unified front against him or something.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Well he would not need to send an army to erebor for Smaug, atleast if we assume Smaug would Sauron willingly.

If he send the army after Smaug's death it could be to take Erebor's gold, destroy the line of Durin etc etc.

The Arkenstone in the films appears to be similar to the One Ring in that it causes people to lust for it. Maybe Sauron wants it.

[Jay 37,364]

Yea, I'm sure PJ and co have some odd and non-Tolkien explanation up their sleeve for Sauron's attack on Erebor in Film 3.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Well Tolkien did the same thing when he wrote The Quest For Erebor long after The Hobbit, to make Gandalf's involvement fit.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

Only Tolkien didn't tie it directly to Sauron. Gandalf just wanted to get rid of the dragon (or in fact help Bilbo find the ring, as he later realised). But Sauron didn't have an active interest in Erebor, and the White Council didn't think of Sauron until Gandalf found him in Dol Guldur.

Tolkien's by far biggest changes were to the Riddles in the Dark chapter. And the way he handled it still strikes me as one of the most brilliant things in literature.

[Faleel 5,349]

Only Tolkien didn't tie it directly to Sauron.

Could you elaborate?

Because reading The Quest for Erebor (just seconds prior to this posting), it seems to me, pretty much directly tied to Sauron

[Bilbo 3,709]

Yea, I'm sure PJ and co have some odd and non-Tolkien explanation up their sleeve for Sauron's attack on Erebor in Film 3.

Er didn't he send his army towards Erebor in this film?

[Jay 37,364]

Sure, but WHY?