John's most "genuine" scores/pieces

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Film composers are often described as being "chameleons." They react to each new film in a unique way, and each requires its own musical approach. They draw on a thousand years of Western musical tradition, and a lot more beyond that, to provide the ideal musical reflection of a film.

John obviously has many detectable influences, but like any great composer, he is of course his own man. Listening to his concert pieces, you can get an idea of his "voice" at its most pure, but they are also touched by external influences.

So, which of his works, whether for the cinema or concert hall, do you think are his most unique/innovative/personal? What has John written that absolutely no one else could have written (ignore the urge to argue with the nature of that question or to just say "everything")? Or if you're more academically inclined, substitute specific techniques or mannerisms for general works.

[indy4 155]

Great thread topic. Look forward to reading the responses. I'll get the ball rolling with his Cello Concerto.

[Ludwig 1,120]

One of my favorite Williams mannerisms is what I've referred to as his "tonalization" of atonal materials. In other words, his use of dissonant chords such that we still hear a tonal center, either through a bass pedal point that sounds like a tonic (ROTLA, "In the Jungle"), or through the use of a major or minor chord with dissonant notes surrounding it (ROTJ, "Luke Confronts the Emperor").

I've always been in awe of this technique because it allows a blend of the enormous tension and uneasiness that atonal materials can generate with the incredibly broad emotional palette that tonal materials can access. While Williams did not invent the technique, the way he uses it is all his own, and goes a long way in describing why his music can affect us so deeply and so powerfully.

[KK 3,307]

Bingo Ludwig!

I was playing around on the piano a while back, brainstorming for a piece I was working around, and at the time I kept thinking about how Williams crafts a tonal center for dissonant chords as you say. There's such a beautiful harmonic quality to the way he does it. And this doesn't neccessarily apply to all the action moments. I'm often more fascinated by how he uses the technique in his underscore, suggesting such a diverse spectrum of emotion and tension in a single chord, its very effective.

As you said, not a novel technique, but he has his own way of doing it where he's so capable of expressing so much more in a single moment.

[King Mark 3,631]

I think his most characteristic sound is something like Olympic Fanfare and Theme or NBC News The Mission theme . You cannot mistake that sound with any other composer and tell within a few seconds it's composed by Williams

to me his concertos sound very Un-Williams

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Maybe things like those, and the big film fanfare themes, are characteristic. But characteristic is not necessarily genuine. I guess I should add that qualification: which piece do you feel is most honest, most painstakingly pulled from the depths of Johnny's soul?

[King Mark 3,631]

Same choice

I'm not sure by what criteria you'd say that the Cello Concerto is more genuine

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

I suppose it's difficult to really get across what I'm asking, because it's dependent on abstract stuff. I'll give it a try with a choice of my own.

The Blue Fairy theme comes to mind for me. With a theme, the most basic thing a composer has to do is capture an idea in music, describe something with sound, but in this case, it feels like he does more than that - it feels like he genuinely understands what he is describing, that he went to a place in his own mind where he could completely identify with David in that moment, and the resulting music is what he felt, not just an external impression of the feeling. Does that make sense to anyone?

I feel it heavily all through AI, and also in Heartwood. The big fanfares and stuff may be what is most identifiably Williams to the general ear, but I've never felt that any of those transcend (great) craftsmanship, nor would they unless you have a composer who is an extremely bombastic, extroverted individual. John is definitely not.

[King Mark 3,631]

I think Williams puts the same attention to detail in almost everything he writes. He says it takes him weeks to get a film theme right. I pointed out his most characteristic sounding.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Ok.

[King Mark 3,631]

You can also pick some of the pieces he plays a lot at his live concerts, as he probably like those the most himself. Something like Raider's March of Yoda's Theme

with something like The Mission theme, he knows people will be hearing it every night, so he probably slaved over it more than Heartwood

I've been listening to JW's music for more than 30 years, and I don't think anyone can claim his concert works are deeper or have more "inner meaning" than some of his famous film themes or fanfares.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

I've been listening to JW's music for more than 30 years, and I don't think anyone can claim his concert works are deeper or have more "inner meaning" than some of his famous film themes or fanfares.

They do have more meaning for Williams, for the same reasons that Grey has stated. John is an extremely introverted, monk-like, ascetic guy. He's drawn more to mysticism and the earth's lifeforce (trees) than patriotism and bombast, although the later comes naturally to him thanks to his time in military bands and arranging Sousa's marches as a teenager. He is the archetypal intellectual hippy, and it's that gentler writing somewhere between atonality and tonality where he bares his soul.

[King Mark 3,631]

You seem to be making up false assumptions of what he's really like, probably from his always humble way of speaking . Nobody know how he is in his private life. He does have an extroverted side to him, he hosted a TV show for 13 years and enjoys to conduct concerts of his film music in front of his fans. He also conducted live at the Oscars and Olympics. Not exactly something a withdrawn and social phobic individual would do

Who know if trees really inspire him much more than Yoda or Indiana Jones

[indy4 155]

I don't think it's fair to say that an introverted person cannot sincerely write extroverted music. Lots of shy people use art to express emotions they are otherwise unable/uncomfortable expressing, the same way you can have an extroverted instrumental musician who can play big and epic pieces incredibly expressively. I'm not saying JW has a social phobia, but this idea that a true artist has to be as extroverted/introverted as his/her work is not anywhere near accurate, IMO.

I also don't see the purpose of only administering this blessing of sincerity to one type of JW's works, whether that's the bombastic or less accessible works. Why can't they both showcase different truths of the composer? I'm not an artist, but I dabble and there are days where I feel like producing a piece like "heartwood" and times when I feel like producing a piece like "The Mission Theme."

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

He does have an extroverted side to him, he hosted a TV show for 13 years and enjoys to conduct concerts of his film music in front of his fans. He also conducted live at the Oscars and Olympics. Not exactly something a withdrawn and social phobic individual would do

You're putting words in my mouth. I never said he's a recluse or has social anxiety, just that he's more comfortable at his Steinway concert grand accompanying a Lieder for some babe, rather than controlling a huge crowd. Stepping into the role of a showman like Arthur Fielder was not natural thing for Williams, even though he did adjust to it and make the Boston Pops his own.

Who know if trees really inspire him much more than Yoda or Indiana Jones

He's written a number of concertos devoted to trees. How many has done for Yoda and Indiana Jones, beyond the suites?

Part of my reasoning here also comes from what Williams has said. When asked what his famous bit of film music is, his usual answer is 'the last 15 minutes or so of CLOSE ENCOUNTERS.' If you recall, that 15 encompasses everything from a high modernist writing, to a still calm (not unlike to Williams's concert works) to a rousing popularist finale quoting a Disney tune.

Although it's written for an animatronic baby raptor, somehow this cue comes the closest to the still calm you hear in Williams's concert works, those last 15 minutes of CE3K and A.I. There's a soliostic piano part ala IMAGES, pedal point, overlapping (014),(013),(026),(027), and (025) sets but more importantly: a sense of wonder tempered with a certain ambiguity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYDJobGAKZc

This is one of my all time favourite "pure" Williams tracks. 1:26 to around 1:40 never fails to tug at my heart strings.

[TownerFan 4,990]

I'll resort to a classic quote about JW by the great Richard Dyer (former music critic of the Boston Globe):

"Even when he's being a ventriloquist, as he sometimes has to be as a film composer, I don't think he's ever written a dishonest note. Like everybody else, some things worked out better than other things did. But I don't think it's a mechanical process for him. He can write music of heroic resolve because he feels heroic resolve. He's drawing on his own inner life and creating additional dimensions in the movies. And that's what makes the concert music work too."

[indy4 155]

Who know if trees really inspire him much more than Yoda or Indiana Jones

He's written a number of concertos devoted to trees. How many has done for Yoda and Indiana Jones, beyond the suites?

And yet he's written more music that can be grouped in the Yoda/Indiana Jones/etc than the tree/etc category. If you're going to argue his film music is insincere (minus a few exceptions), you'd have to explain why he's devoted an entire career to it; he had the money and ability to move on to soley concert music probably by 1975.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Who know if trees really inspire him much more than Yoda or Indiana Jones

He's written a number of concertos devoted to trees. How many has done for Yoda and Indiana Jones, beyond the suites?

And yet he's written more music that can be grouped in the Yoda/Indiana Jones/etc than the tree/etc category.

Not really, if you count his post-tonal underscore.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

I'll resort to a classic quote about JW by the great Richard Dyer (former music critic of the Boston Globe):

"Even when he's being a ventriloquist, as he sometimes has to be as a film composer, I don't think he's ever written a dishonest note. Like everybody else, some things worked out better than other things did. But I don't think it's a mechanical process for him. He can write music of heroic resolve because he feels heroic resolve. He's drawing on his own inner life and creating additional dimensions in the movies. And that's what makes the concert music work too."

Ah ha, I like that!

To be clear I'm not saying one thing or another is insincere or dishonest. I'm just wondering what people think is his *most* sincere or honest music.

I don't think it's fair to say that an introverted person cannot sincerely write extroverted music. Lots of shy people use art to express emotions they are otherwise unable/uncomfortable expressing, the same way you can have an extroverted instrumental musician who can play big and epic pieces incredibly expressively. I'm not saying JW has a social phobia, but this idea that a true artist has to be as extroverted/introverted as his/her work is not anywhere near accurate, IMO.

I also don't see the purpose of only administering this blessing of sincerity to one type of JW's works, whether that's the bombastic or less accessible works. Why can't they both showcase different truths of the composer? I'm not an artist, but I dabble and there are days where I feel like producing a piece like "heartwood" and times when I feel like producing a piece like "The Mission Theme."

Again, I'm not implying anything as absolute as you think. My own feelings on this aren't fully formed, hence the thread to discuss it.

[Tom 4,674]

I think that any project Williams attaches allows for genuineness. I think it is equally clear that he can develop a greater or less passion for the project once involved. See the Spencer interview for confirmation of that.

With that being said, it is clear that Star Wars is a source of genuine passion--particularly as evidenced by his desire to score the new Trilogy. The concert works should not be viewed differently as most are commissioned for a specific person or purpose. While they are free of visual constraints, they are not free of all constraints. In fact, Williams talks of Star Wars in terms of a free swing equivalent to a 3 and 0 pitch. In other words, he gets to do whatever he wants, to some degree.

Using the criterion of passion as the judge, he does seem to have a particular fondness for the Cello/Ma. I think that one of the best example is the 6 movement suite based on his Memoirs score. also, already mentioned, but that he often chooses the Mission as a final encore seems to evidence as particular fondness for that piece.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

So, no one else wants to discuss this without resorting to the usual "John is always genuine, he rocks!" truisms?

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Indeed. Most sad.

[tedfud 38]

if goldsmith was lennon...then JW is definitely paul. He's capable of darkness but i can't help feeling he is always waiting for the sun to poke through his music. He also seems to really enjoy being clever. Not in an ostentatious way...but buried deep there is always intricacy in the machine. A watchmaker at heart ...as stravinsky said of Ravel....

t

[Ludwig 1,120]

So, no one else wants to discuss this without resorting to the usual "John is always genuine, he rocks!" truisms?

We should probably hone the question to focus on one particular aspect of JW's music. Unique, innovative, and personal can be quite different things, so perhaps it feels a bit nebulous to some. In your initial post, you seem to be after those cues and works that are most original to JW. Of course, I wouldn't want to duplicate the "Unique Williams-isms" thread, so here why don't we focus on entire cues and/or scores rather than individual techniques that bear the most original JW stamp, and in what ways?

[tedfud 38]

good idea.

I would nominate CEOTFK. Almost unique amongst film scores in it's blending of so many different techniques. There are almost all of williams favourite tricks on display and yet put together in such a unique way. I have always wondered why he never did a complete piece for the concert hall out of it. Copyright i suppose. There's Ligeti and debussy , Strauss and Stravinsky all presented in a truly individual way...and often at the same time.....I suspect this is music closest to him. The wonderful end when all the dissonance gives way to glorious lushness. The Five note riff arriving in Russian splendour ....simply majestic. If anybody ever gives me grief about film music not having the same power and interest of concert music I always through that at em !..........always shut's them up.

T

[King Mark 3,631]

Williams can write concert pieces of whatever he wants and there's no copyright issues. He also wrote a full concert suite of Close Encounters

[tedfud 38]

well i guess i meant rather than stick cues together ( as in his concert suites ) take it all apart and use the thematic material and write a complete piece. I suspect there are restrictions....maybe not though.

T

[King Mark 3,631]

Well , in his concert suites he usually re-works the material to some degree

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

The first half of Soundings really speaks to me. I don't know it we could say it's really a subtext in the piece apart from the experimentation with sound, but for some reason I really find myself hypnotized by that particular section of the piece. For me, it speaks of the universe and the passage of time, maybe that's why I connect with it. That's why I'd say it sounds really genuine and personal.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Wonderful! I'm going to listen to it now.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYDJobGAKZc

This is one of my all time favourite "pure" Williams tracks. 1:26 to around 1:40 never fails to tug at my heart strings.

These kind of tracks are also for me the "purist" Williams. You can find them from many scores.

Along with the catchy melodies and great orchestration these ones makes he my favorite composer of all time.

[Quintus 5,399]

For years the answer to this thread was the entire finale and end credits suite of Close Encounters of the Third Kind; before he eventually outgrew that style (neo-romantic) in the mid nineties.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

I agree, but I think it still holds a lot of significance, now sharing it with some other stuff (AI).

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

As I said up above, CE3K's finale isn't just neo-romantic. It's a pretty post-modern mix of various idioms. What makes it so compelling is the journey you're taken on, one from a cold ambiguity a warm resolution. One without the other doesn't provide the same sense of satisfaction. That's way it was designed from the moment John put pen to paper.

[tedfud 38]

absolutely....when we get to about the two minute mark in 'The Visitors/Bye/End Titles" the atonality gradually shifts . A high string line slowly opens the way to the music become more tonal . and at about 2.53 we have the cellos play a firm melody. But is all very vague..then again at 3;48 it opens up to a tune . By 4 mins firmly tonal.I find this highly original. I'm surprised he didn't explore this more in other pieces. It's like a mix of 19th and late 20th century music crossfading . "L'aprés midi de faun" meets "atmospheres" . Can you think of a composer who does all this ?

T

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Me!

But in the way of more useful answers, check out Dutilleux, Messiaen, Takemitsu... basically anyone carrying the Debussyan tradition into the mid 20th century. They don't have the same level of outright tonal excursions that CE3K has, but it's all in a similar vein.

[tedfud 38]

well.....love their stuff...but not the same at all. They all happily live in dissonance . Their music is Always spiky. They do varying degrees of it, but they never cross over into the total LUSH FEST that jw can give himself up to. lutoslawski has moments of 'tunes" but they always seem conspicuous. It's the gradual fading from one to the other that JW does sooooo well.

T

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Takemitsu more than the other two, I'd say (not the Debussian tradition bit - the other bit).

Check out this piece.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwvnp3OWLiE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XikymqRRSIA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1F4zl5gIsNM

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

I encountered that piece at a live performance during my school days. It was one of the first times that I felt a genuine connection with a composer, that he was speaking the same language as me. Wonderful stuff.

[tedfud 38]

lovely stuff...but not what i'm after. It still has a very disjointed "modern" feel........

i loved RAN....amazing

t

[Romão 2,274]

Ran is one the all time great scores. The music is much more than sad. It's despair depicted musically

[tedfud 38]

I always thought these guys nailed it...electronically mind....check out 11;53 onwards......magical

T

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

It should be required viewing for anyone remotely interested in film.

Ran is one the all time great scores. The music is much more than sad. It's despair depicted musically

[tedfud 38]

wonderful film...and yes the music is painfully sad and bleak

t

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

I always thought these guys nailed it...electronically mind....check out 11;53 onwards......magical

T

Oh man this is groovy. Love it.

[tedfud 38]

all live too.....

[Alejandro 26]

I like to think that Taking Pictures from Stepmom is what plays when John takes long walks and reflects.