Howard Shore's The Battle of the Five Armies (Hobbit Part 3)

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,716]

Funny story ....

When the timing sheets were prepared for the DOS score, whoever was typing them up kept referring to Bard's oldest daughter as his wife. Shore had to send a handwritten note saying, "Hey, that's his daughter!"

Shore is very precise with these things when it comes to Middle-earth (and I assume just in general as well). All part of the tremendous care and throught he obviously put into these works.

Yeah, like using the Gondor Reborn theme for Bilbo and Thorin hugging!

Very funny BB. Don't lay blame on Shore's door for that!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Barnald 365]

We can always blame Pope.

[Incanus 5,716]

Semper habemus Papam.

[Doug Adams 494]

Pope's role in these scores still seems to be misunderstood.

[mstrox 6,651]

What's so hard to understand about it? Pope played all the instruments, and threw the score together in post.

[Incanus 5,716]

Pope's role in these scores still seems to be misunderstood.

Perhaps more deliberately lampooned in these parts even when people know the true extent of his involvement and role.

[Jay 37,374]

Pope's role in these scores still seems to be misunderstood.

What was Robert Ziegler's role in AUJ?

[Incanus 5,716]

Pope's role in these scores still seems to be misunderstood.

What was Robert Ziegler's role in AUJ?

Ooh a good question!

[Doug Adams 494]

Pope's role in these scores still seems to be misunderstood.

What was Robert Ziegler's role in AUJ?

He conducted a few pickup sessions at the very end when time grew tight and Shore needed to concentrate on writing.

They'd collaborated in a similar manner on Hugo.

[Jay 37,374]

Can any of Ziegler's work be heard on the OST?

[Doug Adams 494]

Can any of Ziegler's work be heard on the OST?

No I don't think so.

[Jay 37,374]

I wouldn't think so either; I'm sure it was all the last-minute rewrites PJ wanted for the final picture

Do you know if Shore or Ziegler conducted the great Reclamation of Nature moment at the end of the film that isn't on the OST (and showed up again in BOFA) ?

[Doug Adams 494]

I wouldn't think so either; I'm sure it was all the last-minute rewrites PJ wanted for the final picture

Do you know if Shore or Ziegler conducted the great Reclamation of Nature moment at the end of the film that isn't on the OST (and showed up again in BOFA) ?

I don't know the exact passages, but it was all last act/finale stuff, so it's very possible.

[Jay 37,374]

Interesting.

Ziegler likely conducted the Nazgul theme for Thorin's log walk too, then.

[Doug Adams 494]

Interesting.

Ziegler likely conducted the Nazgul theme for Thorin's log walk too, then.

I'm saying it's "possible," not "likely."

[Jay 37,374]

Understood

[Incanus 5,716]

Was the Dwarf Lords melody heard twice on the AUJ soundtrack originally planned to be much more prominent in the subsequent films?

[Jay 37,374]

This is where you can find it, Doug

The Dwarf Lords

AUJ 1-03 Axe or Sword 3:43-4:04 (B Section)

AUJ 2-16 The Dwarf Lords 0:00-0:37

AUJ 2-16 The Dwarf Lords 0:57-1:35

AUJ 2-16 The Dwarf Lords 1:35-1:57 (B Section)

[Doug Adams 494]

Was the Dwarf Lords melody heard twice on the AUJ soundtrack originally planned to be much more prominent in the subsequent films?

It was meant to play a larger role overall, but nothing was written for DOS or BOFA while it was still in play, so it's impossible to know for certain what it might have done in those scores.

This was sort of a quest theme (the titles for the theme pieces on the album were all assigned after the fact and have little to no bearing on what the themes actually represented), and as such it functioned similarly to Misty Mountains. It's entirely possible that, like Misty Mountains, the theme wouldn't haven survived to DOS or BOFA.

EDIT: Sorry, this was referring to the "Erebor" theme track (which, similarly, was not a theme for Erebor). Same general answer applies to all the Dwarf theme pieces, however.

[Incanus 5,716]

Very interesting.

Is Gandalf's secondary theme (or second part of his theme), the longer phrase heard most clearly at the opening of Radagast the Brown (after his short motif) on the AUJ soundtrack, for some specific quality of Gandalf or his mission or just another way of adding to the variety to the musical depiction of Gandalf in the Hobbit given his more active mover-and-shaker role?

[Doug Adams 494]

This is where you can find it, Doug

The Dwarf Lords

AUJ 1-03 Axe or Sword 3:43-4:04 (B Section)

AUJ 2-16 The Dwarf Lords 0:00-0:37

AUJ 2-16 The Dwarf Lords 0:57-1:35

AUJ 2-16 The Dwarf Lords 1:35-1:57 (B Section)

There are rescued bits from the theme compositions in all three Hobbit scores. None really has any particular thematic connection anymore, however. LOTR was the same way. Early ideas often popped up elsewhere and were repurposed. Very common practice for all composers, not just film.

Btw, one the major Dwarf themes in AUJ began life as a Dol Guldur theme! Shore reshaped it and made it Dwarf-ier.

Very interesting.

Is Gandalf's secondary theme, the longer phrase heard most clearly at the opening of Radagast the Brown after his short motif on the AUJ soundtrack, for some specific quality of Gandalf or his mission or just another way of adding to the variety to the musical depiction of Gandalf in the Hobbit given his more active mover-and-shaker role?

That's not a secondary Gandalf theme. It has a broader application.

[Jay 37,374]

That fragment of the "Dwarf Lords" theme in "Axe or Sword" plays when someone asks Balin where Thorin is, and Balin says he's at a meeting of the dwarf lords, so it all made sense - and you can see why we expected it to reappear when Dain did.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,716]

Very interesting.

Is Gandalf's secondary theme, the longer phrase heard most clearly at the opening of Radagast the Brown after his short motif on the AUJ soundtrack, for some specific quality of Gandalf or his mission or just another way of adding to the variety to the musical depiction of Gandalf in the Hobbit given his more active mover-and-shaker role?

That's not a secondary Gandalf theme. It has a broader application.

It's an Istari theme!

But does it even appear in the subsequent films? I can't remember a single instance where the theme would be recognizably present in DoS or BotFA.

[Doug Adams 494]

Very interesting.

Is Gandalf's secondary theme, the longer phrase heard most clearly at the opening of Radagast the Brown after his short motif on the AUJ soundtrack, for some specific quality of Gandalf or his mission or just another way of adding to the variety to the musical depiction of Gandalf in the Hobbit given his more active mover-and-shaker role?

That's not a secondary Gandalf theme. It has a broader application.

It's an Istari theme!

But does it even appear in the subsequent films? I can't remember a single instance where the theme would be recognizably present in DoS or BotFA.

It's in BOFA. Heavily varied, but very recognizable. Listen to Gandalf's final moments in the score.

[Incanus 5,716]

Very interesting.

Is Gandalf's secondary theme, the longer phrase heard most clearly at the opening of Radagast the Brown after his short motif on the AUJ soundtrack, for some specific quality of Gandalf or his mission or just another way of adding to the variety to the musical depiction of Gandalf in the Hobbit given his more active mover-and-shaker role?

That's not a secondary Gandalf theme. It has a broader application.

It's an Istari theme!

But does it even appear in the subsequent films? I can't remember a single instance where the theme would be recognizably present in DoS or BotFA.

It's in BOFA. Heavily varied, but very recognizable. Listen to Gandalf's final moments in the score.

Now I have to start combing through the soundtrack (again!).

EDIT: Well blimey! It is there! Sometimes this glossary of themes deafens you to these smaller gestures. Or perhaps makes a regular listener guessing between themes. Naturally context is important.

Another nice find! Thanks Doug!

[Barnald 365]

I did speculate that the music which plays over the quiet moment between Gandalf and Bilbo was very reminiscent of it, and some of you concurred.

[Faleel 5,363]

Btw, one the major Dwarf themes in AUJ began life as a Dol Guldur theme! Shore reshaped it and made it Dwarf-ier.

I assuming this was House of Durin?

[Doug Adams 494]

Btw, one the major Dwarf themes in AUJ began life as a Dol Guldur theme! Shore reshaped it and made it Dwarf-ier.

I assuming this was House of Durin?

No.

Very interesting.

Is Gandalf's secondary theme, the longer phrase heard most clearly at the opening of Radagast the Brown after his short motif on the AUJ soundtrack, for some specific quality of Gandalf or his mission or just another way of adding to the variety to the musical depiction of Gandalf in the Hobbit given his more active mover-and-shaker role?

That's not a secondary Gandalf theme. It has a broader application.

It's an Istari theme!

But does it even appear in the subsequent films? I can't remember a single instance where the theme would be recognizably present in DoS or BotFA.

It's in BOFA. Heavily varied, but very recognizable. Listen to Gandalf's final moments in the score.

Now I have to start combing through the soundtrack (again!).

EDIT: Well blimey! It is there! Sometimes this glossary of themes deafens you to these smaller gestures. Or perhaps makes a regular listener guessing between themes. Naturally context is important.

Another nice find! Thanks Doug!

One of my favorite sequences in all three scores. Very simple, but so tonally perfect.

[Jay 37,374]

one the major Dwarf themes in AUJ began life as a Dol Guldur theme! Shore reshaped it and made it Dwarf-ier.

"major" dwarf themes in AUJ? Wouldn't the only "major" AUJ dwarf-related themes be Erebor, Thorin, and Misty Mountains?

[Doug Adams 494]

Sorry for the weird over-quoted post. My phone doesn't seem to love this interface.

[Incanus 5,716]

I did speculate that the music which plays over the quiet moment between Gandalf and Bilbo was very reminiscent of it, and some of you concurred.

I must have missed or forgotten this. Can you ever forgive me for not noticing this nugget of wisdom and insight?

[Doug Adams 494]

one the major Dwarf themes in AUJ began life as a Dol Guldur theme! Shore reshaped it and made it Dwarf-ier.

"major" dwarf themes in AUJ? Wouldn't the only "major" AUJ dwarf related themes be Erebor, Thorin, and Misty Mountains?

No.

[Jay 37,374]

Is Gandalf's secondary theme, the longer phrase heard most clearly at the opening of Radagast the Brown after his short motif on the AUJ soundtrack, for some specific quality of Gandalf or his mission or just another way of adding to the variety to the musical depiction of Gandalf in the Hobbit given his more active mover-and-shaker role?

That's not a secondary Gandalf theme. It has a broader application.

It's related to The Nine from DOS, right?

[Barnald 365]

I did speculate that the music which plays over the quiet moment between Gandalf and Bilbo was very reminiscent of it, and some of you concurred.

I must have missed or forgotten this. Can you every forgive me for not noticing this nugget of wisdom and insight?

I'll be honest - probably not. But you earn points for suggesting a provided a 'nugget of wisdom and insight'. I'm sure I wasn't the first to notice it mind you.

[Faleel 5,363]

Well there is the motif that I think TGP calls the moonlight theme, that I call THE DIGNITY OF DWARVES.

Then thee is what Jay calls the Company's A theme (?)

[Jay 37,374]

one the major Dwarf themes in AUJ began life as a Dol Guldur theme! Shore reshaped it and made it Dwarf-ier.

"major" dwarf themes in AUJ? Wouldn't the only "major" AUJ dwarf related themes be Erebor, Thorin, and Misty Mountains?

No.

The theme I call the "Journey theme"?

The Company’s Journey Theme

AUJ 1-08 The World Is Ahead 2:01-2:16

AUJ 2-17 Edge of the Wild 0:00-0:48

[Faleel 5,363]

Then there is the big sweeping Weakness and Redemption variant for Thorin.

[Jay 37,374]

Indeed

Thorin’s Pride

AUJ 1-01 My Dear Frodo 6:29-7:00

AUJ 1-01 My Dear Frodo 7:22-7:47

AUJ 1-13 A Troll-hoard 0:44-0:56

AUJ 1-13 A Troll-hoard 1:50-2:03

AUJ 1-13 A Troll-hoard 2:14-2:19

DOS 1-06 Flies and Spiders 8:37-8:56

DOS 1-07 The Woodland Realm 0:00-0:11

DOS 1-07 The Woodland Realm 2:21-2:43

[Incanus 5,716]

Indeed

Thorin’s Pride

AUJ 1-01 My Dear Frodo 6:29-7:00

AUJ 1-01 My Dear Frodo 7:22-7:47

AUJ 1-13 A Troll-hoard 0:44-0:56

AUJ 1-13 A Troll-hoard 1:50-2:03

AUJ 1-13 A Troll-hoard 2:14-2:19

DOS 1-06 Flies and Spiders 8:37-8:56

DOS 1-07 The Woodland Realm 0:00-0:11

DOS 1-07 The Woodland Realm 2:21-2:43

But aren't those two latter DoS variations more Thranduil related? At least this is the picture I got from BotFa where the motif has been used exlusively for him.

[Jay 37,374]

Yup, I initially simply called it Thranduil's theme until you all convinced it was related to Thorin's Pride from AUJ.

Then of course it shows up in BOFA when Thranduil's on screen, vindicating me!

[Incanus 5,716]

Yup, I initially simply called it Thranduil's theme until you all convinced it was related to Thorin's Pride from AUJ.

Then of course it shows up in BOFA when Thranduil's on screen, vindicating me!

We know! We are sssssorrry Precioussss! We dos what it askssss! We will call it Thranduil's Pride, Precioussss!

[Jay 37,374]

My theme list is massively out of date, it all needs to be updated.

Especially if Doug's book will be out by Christmas!

Anyways, I remember the discussion was that it was more of a "Dwarf vs Elves" theme, showing up when Thorin is pissed off about elves, and when Thranduil's around (who is always pissed off at Thorin)

[Faleel 5,363]

Of course it also pops up in An Unexpected Pary

[Jay 37,374]

Thorin's Pride?

Timestamp?

[Faleel 5,363]

0:10 and throughout the cue, listen to the bass.

0:25

0:40

[Incanus 5,716]

0:10, listen to the bass.

I think that is just Hobbit music much like the stuff when Bilbo is sneaking about in his home in FotR and in the Hobbit.

[Faleel 5,363]

1:19