Howard Shore's The Battle of the Five Armies (Hobbit Part 3)

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Barnald 365]

I expect we'll see the windlance being destroyed in the EE.

[gkgyver 1,646]

I think Doug's referring to the four note "end cap" that often plays after Erebor in AUJ.

That end cap certainly isn't what you'd call "a major new dwarf theme". I would say it's the Erebor theme itself.

[Jay 37,378]

He already said it wasn't Erebor or Thorin or Misty Mountains

[gkgyver 1,646]

Question: wouldn't the only "major" AUJ dwarf related themes be Erebor, Thorin, and Misty Mountains?

Doug's answer: No.
-----

He just said the themes listed aren't the only major new dwarf themes in AUJ. Not that it's not any of the listed themes.

[Jay 37,378]

I can't imagine Thorin or Erebor started out as a Dol Goldur theme - about Misty Mountains obviously didn't.

But I suppose the book will reveal all.

I still think its the "journey" theme. Or a theme that none of us would consider "major", but Doug (/Shore) does

[Incanus 5,716]

I expect we'll see the windlance being destroyed in the EE.

Well it would explain why Bard has to use a normal bow. That was actually an idea I really liked, going back to the original book, Bard slaying Smaug with a regular bow.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Barnald 365]

Yes, that would have been best for all concerned, even Bain.

[Incanus 5,716]

Yes. Absolutely! And they should have used the Goofy scream when Bard fires him toward Smaug.

[Faleel 5,365]

one the major Dwarf themes in AUJ began life as a Dol Guldur theme! Shore reshaped it and made it Dwarf-ier.

"major" dwarf themes in AUJ? Wouldn't the only "major" AUJ dwarf related themes be Erebor, Thorin, and Misty Mountains?

No.

So no more speculation on this?

What I can think of (perhaps parts of these are separate themes, like the second line of Thorin's theme):

- Erebor

- Thorin

- House of Durin

- Dwarf Lords

- The Company Journey (opening of Edge of the Wild)

- The Company Quest (Erebor bonus track)

I'm trying to think what could most easily sound evil if change slightly, maybe Dwarf Lords (though that's certainly not a major theme)?

Doug already answered to Faleel that it is not the House of Durin so we can count that out.

He did?

[Jay 37,378]

Yea right here

http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=24673&p=1124989

[Faleel 5,365]

Yeah, I saw that, at the time I first read it, there was nothing there, because Doug was having problems with the interface or whatever.

[gkgyver 1,646]

The first phrase of Dain's theme reminds me of the second phrase of Fellowship. Also, I think it's neat that that first phrase ends with the Erebor theme.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Gnome in Plaid 219]

one the major Dwarf themes in AUJ began life as a Dol Guldur theme! Shore reshaped it and made it Dwarf-ier.

"major" dwarf themes in AUJ? Wouldn't the only "major" AUJ dwarf related themes be Erebor, Thorin, and Misty Mountains?

No.

So no more speculation on this?

What I can think of (perhaps parts of these are separate themes, like the second line of Thorin's theme):

- Erebor

- Thorin

- House of Durin

- Dwarf Lords

- The Company Journey (opening of Edge of the Wild)

- The Company Quest (Erebor bonus track)

I'm trying to think what could most easily sound evil if change slightly, maybe Dwarf Lords (though that's certainly not a major theme)?

My money would be on "The Company Quest." There's something unsettling about the opening to "Erebor."

[gkgyver 1,646]

Hey Faleel, did you also notice the numerous typos and simplified meters in the BOTFA piano book? "There and Back Again" especially has plenty of wrong meters compared to the OST track, and the final Ring theme statement is also transcribed wrong (meter-wise).

There are also omitted rests throughout the book, or half notes filling whole 4/4 bars. The "Gandalf/House of Durin hybrid" at the end of "The Return Journey" also has a D instead of the E.

I know the first page says that pieces were rearranged occasionally for page-turning purposes, but that can't explain those sloppy mistakes.

[Jay 37,378]

Yikes, did Howard Shore sign off on that?

[Faleel 5,365]

Yikes, did Howard Shore sign off on that?

Its the offical piano book, and it is mentioned in the credits of the liner notes....

[Jay 37,378]

Crazy.

[gkgyver 1,646]

I noticed this because I couldn't help myself conducting along with the music, plus of course playing it on keyboard.

I thought that maybe they simplified it for playing purposes, but it's not exactly beginner's level ...

Also, in the nature theme (in To The Death), there is a harmony error; the F#m dim chord should be followed by F#m, but it's the same F#m dim chord twice in a row in the book.

Additional note: Shore wrote a short introduction for DoS, the BOTFA book doesn't have one.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

What more was there to say? TBOTFA is nothing more then DoS vol. 2.

Such a lazy score. I guess his heart wasn't in it.

[gkgyver 1,646]

No matter how often I listen to these scores, it always strikes me how much the sound progresses from AUJ all the way through to BOTFA. I would have assumed that the progress would start somewhere in AUJ, and then assimilate itself to FotR over the course of BOTFA. But really, exactly the opposite is the case. The farther in we get into BOTFA, the farther it veers from LotR. It steers away in its mix, it steers away in its orchestration, and in part also in composition I think.

In short, the further the trilogy progresses, the more modern the music sounds. And it's really ... odd.

[Jay 37,378]

What more was there to say? TBOTFA is nothing more then DoS vol. 2.

Such a lazy score. I guess his heart wasn't in it.

I wouldn't call it a lazy score, but it doesn't have the feel of the Grand finale to a six part film series, or something. I dunno.

I've listened to it the least by far of th three Hobbit scores.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Its the most disappointing score of the last 10 years, moreso even then ROTS.

[gkgyver 1,646]

What more was there to say? TBOTFA is nothing more then DoS vol. 2.

Such a lazy score. I guess his heart wasn't in it.

I wouldn't call it a lazy score, but it doesn't have the feel of the Grand finale to a six part film series, or something. I dunno.

I've listened to it the least by far of th three Hobbit scores.

That's because ... it isn't.

[Jay 37,378]

No matter how often I listen to these scores, it always strikes me how much the sound progresses from AUJ all the way through to BOTFA. I would have assumed that the progress would start somewhere in AUJ, and then assimilate itself to FotR over the course of BOTFA. But really, exactly the opposite is the case. The farther in we get into BOTFA, the farther it veers from LotR. It steers away in its mix, it steers away in its orchestration, and in part also in composition I think.

In short, the further the trilogy progresses, the more modern the music sounds. And it's really ... odd.

You know what? You're right!

I had thought that AUJ would be the score to be furthest from the LOTR sound, with each subsequent score bringing us right into FOTR. But that turned out to not be the case, in fact the opposite happened!

AUJ is definitely the one that sounds the most LOTR like. Not only because of all the returning themes, but also the general writing, the same orchestra being used, same conductor. Even thr new material like Misty Mountains and Thorin and Erebor would fit right into a LOTR score.

DOS then went very far away from the LOTR sound... And not just because of the change in orchestra and conductor, but the writing and orchestration. You had the Chinese instruments for Smaug, the darker music for the dwarves being so far away from home in a foreign location, all the House of Durin stuff which to me reaches into a type of nobility not heard in LOTR, The Nine which is a different type of ethereal stuff, etc.

Then BOFA, it's like Peter Jackson got so caught up in making a war movie, there wasn't much opportunity to write music that wasn't either battle music or preparing for battle music. And all the action music is different than the LOTR action music.

So yea, AUJ is really the most LOTR is of the scores. Sure, you got the wildly different things like the Radagast material, but overall it's a very LOTRish score. I'd really love to travel to an alternate reality where PJ didn't go crazy and hear that version of the scores...

[KK 3,307]

Its the most disappointing score of the last 10 years, moreso even then ROTS.

You exaggerate Steef.

But yes, it is the least of the Middle-Earth scores. But it has undeniable merits as well.

I actually find AUJ's close roots to the original LOTR sound a drawback. With DoS, Shore tries to reinvent the LOTR sound, and I really like that he allowed himself to explore that while staying relatively true to the universe.

BotFA is a strange case. I think it came to the point where things just needed to finish. They were no longer making a Middle-Earth film anymore. And I think Shore knew that and was just scoring scene to scene trying to rid himself of what was probably an exhausting experience. So you do hear that more modern sound seeping in there. At that point, it was just a standard action/war pic to get done. And the fact that he wasn't there to control the sessions calls for the curious quality of sound and recording. It's all a bit unfortunate.

[Incanus 5,716]

Yes it has to be said the final score of the Hobbit trilogy does feel like it makes an audible shift toward the modern blockbuster scoring. Whether this is just battle fatigue or PJ giving instructions it does feel the least "Middle-earthy" of the six scores in some respects. But given the movie which goes all over the place Shore did a fantastic job. Not the disappointment of the decade but not the leap above the DoS certainly.

[Jay 37,378]

BotFA is a strange case. I think it came to the point where things just needed to finish. They were no longer making a Middle-Earth film anymore and at that point, I think Shore was just scoring scene to scene trying to rid himself of what was probably an exhausting experience. So you do hear that more modern sound seeping in there. At that point, it was a standard action/war pic to get done. And the fact that he wasn't there to control the sessions calls for the curious quality of sound and recording. It's all a bit unfortunate.

Spot on.

[gkgyver 1,646]

In retrospect, DoS is the best of these scores. It has the best of both worlds, in a way. It's far enough from LotR to hold its own sound palette, but close enough to not be mistaken for anything but Middle-Earth. Kind of like Two Towers, really, which already had the intimate epic feel of RotK, and at the same time those small character moments from FotR, which became less in RotK.

What's more fascinating, however, is that the final two tracks from BOTFA, "The Return Journey" and "There and Back Again", play out, in tone and style, like the previous 2 hours of music never happened. You get the feeling that this music really does transition into FotR, but literally nothing else up to this point does.

On top of that, if you take only the Bag End scenes from AUJ, the ones that show scenes shortly before the plot of FotR begins, and you put them into the chronology of FotR, you wouldn't know that this music was written and recorded 10 years later. In fact, you could probably add the Bilbo/Gandalf scene, too.

That's one half of the story.

The other half, of course, is that, while the sound of the scores get farther and farther away from LotR, the actual themes are given an enormous amount of additional depth, and lead into Fellowship in a great way. Just by adding the descending thirds motif into the Hobbit, for example, you give that motif so much more meaning, and also transformation over the course of all six films.

BotFA is a strange case. I think it came to the point where things just needed to finish. They were no longer making a Middle-Earth film anymore. I think Shore was just scoring scene to scene trying to rid himself of what was probably an exhausting experience. So you do hear that more modern sound seeping in there. At that point, it was a standard action/war pic to get done. And the fact that he wasn't there to control the sessions calls for the curious quality of sound and recording. It's all a bit unfortunate.

Well, as far as we know, Shore finished the score that he wrote to an advanced cut of the picture by the time September rolled on, at his home, so I don't think he was really involved in the pure post-production mayhem of orchestrating and making changes on the spot. He was probably consulted, but he wasn't there in the eye of the hurricane, so I don't think it was a case of Shore rushing to get the score done.

What I'd really like to know is how much the score was altered on the podium, compared to Shore's original sketches.

[Jay 37,378]

What's more fascinating, however, is that the final two tracks from BOTFA, "The Return Journey" and "There and Back Again", play out, in tone and style, like the previous 2 hours of music never happened. You get the feeling that this music really does transition into FotR, but literally nothing else up to this point does.

Wow, very astute.

[Incanus 5,716]

That transition is well done I have to admit. I even like the There and Back Again which many seem to think anticlimactic as it does end in medias res and in essence transports us musically (also in tone) back to the Lord of the Rings.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Barnald 365]

I would say AUJ was my favourite, probably because it is so similar to LOTR, and because it's my favourite film of the series by far. BotFA is probably the weakest, and yet it contains some of my favourite musical moments (Mithril, Sons of Durin, Battle for the Mountain, The Darkest Hour). I suppose there could yet be some gems among the unheard EE material as well, so there is that.

For me, the problem relates to the film, which nosedives the moment the Dwarves decide to take to the Ravenhill (others probably feel it went south earlier, but I was really enjoying it up to that point). As such, I think Sons of Durin is a glorious highpoint, the culmination of the tension, battle and desperation we've heard before. I don't think The Fallen, Ravenhill and To the Death provide the sort of exciting and emotional cap that was needed, a few standout moments aside (the Ancient Enemy reprise, the arrival of the Eagles). But I link this to the faults of the film, which really give Shore very little to work with (shit deaths for Kili and Fili, the wank Tauriel and Kili stuff, Legolas' bollocks antics, no Beorn, very little proper conclusion to the battle). As it is, the highlights are, for me at least, few and far between, and I find these 3 tracks go on too long and kind of kill the momentum of the listening experience. Others will probably disagree of course, but much of the material here just seems rather generic to me (especially the start of To The Death, which strikes me as the sort of bland music you'd hear in a LOTR video game). That said, I love the first half of Courage and Wisdom and the last 2 tracks, they round it out nicely.

Interesting point about the last two tracks bringing us right back to FOTR. I suppose, in terms of the album, you could also make the case about Thrain, which of course has the most FOTR-sounding evil material composed for these films (albeit not used).

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Incanus 5,716]

Interesting point about the last two tracks bringing us right back to FOTR. I suppose, in terms of the album, you could also make the case about Thrain, which of course has the most FOTR-sounding of the evil material composed for these films (albeit not used).

Great point!

Yes that's quite true. NZSO succeeds sounding very Lord of the Rings during that piece.

[Jim Ware 526]

What's more fascinating, however, is that the final two tracks from BOTFA, "The Return Journey" and "There and Back Again", play out, in tone and style, like the previous 2 hours of music never happened. You get the feeling that this music really does transition into FotR, but literally nothing else up to this point does.

Wow, very astute.

It's worth pointing out that the music at the very end of the picture was some of the earliest material written for Five Armies.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Barnald 365]

BotFA is probably the weakest, and yet it contains some of my favourite musical moments (Mithril, Sons of Durin, Battle for the Mountain, The Darkest Hour). I suppose there could yet be some gems among the unheard EE material as well, so there is that.

For me, the problem relates to the film, which nosedives the moment the Dwarves decide to take to the Ravenhill (others probably feel it went south earlier, but I was really enjoying it up to that point). As such, I think Sons of Durin is a glorious highpoint, the culmination of the tension, battle and desperation we've heard before. I don't think The Fallen, Ravenhill and To the Death provide the sort of exciting and emotional cap that was needed, a few standout moments aside (the Ancient Enemy reprise, the arrival of the Eagles). But I link this to the faults of the film, which really give Shore very little to work with (shit deaths for Kili and Fili, the wank Tauriel and Kili stuff, Legolas' bollocks antics, no Beorn, very little proper conclusion to the battle). As it is, the highlights are, for me at least, few and far between, and I find these 3 tracks go on too long and kind of kill the momentum of the listening experience. Others will probably disagree of course, but much of the material here just seems rather generic to me (especially the start of To The Death, which strikes me as the sort of bland music you'd hear in a LOTR video game). That said, I love the first half of Courage and Wisdom and the last 2 tracks, they round it out nicely.

Agree with pretty much everything you say.

Impossible!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Barnald 365]

Maybe I was a bit harsh lumping The Fallen in with Ravenhill and To The Death. I like the music for Thorin's 'redemption'. But perhaps it slows things down too much after the excitement of Sons of Durin?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Barnald 365]

I feel a little like that with the close of DoS as well, namely with parts of Smaug. I think that's one of the reasons why I like the AUJ OST so much, since it sticks pretty much to the film's narrative structure throughout.

[Jay 37,378]

I think had the scores been recorded under Shore's baton, with his own orchestrations then they would have sounded more in tune with LOTR. Presumably, he would have been more invested in the films too as the filmmakers would not have made things so difficult for him (if the AUJ debacle never happened). That said, the start of DOS is the most LOTR sounding music of the Hobbit trilogy to my ears. Also I don't see the Smaug material DOS as some deviation from the LOTR sound when it should be sounding more like the original scores, instead I think it brings something new and fresh to the middle earth sound scape.

Well hold on now - I was certainly not complaining about the Smaug material at all - I think its brilliant, and its my favorite part of The Hobbit scores! It's a fantastic deviation from the LOTR sound, I love it.

I was never trying to imply that The Hobbit scores should not have deviated from the LOTR sound! Of course they should have!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,365]

I think that the action music in BOTFA seems like a cross between AUJ and DOS action music in some ways to me.

For example compare Sons of Durin 3:28 to 3:23 of Out of the Frying Pan the brass underneath

[Incanus 5,716]

I just find the arrangement of the cues to be a bit random on the album. There is no logical progression (at least, none that I can see).

I find the arrangement of the cues in the film a bit random to be honest. PJ needs to learn how to use silence and when and not just cut the pulsing lifeblood of the scene, namely the music, just when it should be prodiving that essential forward momentum and dramatic pacing.

Maybe I was a bit harsh lumping The Fallen in with Ravenhill and To The Death. I like the music for Thorin's 'redemption'. But perhaps it slows things down too much after the excitement of Sons of Durin?

Might be that the finale is not emotionally as resonant as you would have liked, perhaps to do with the lack of the strong themes charting the way through the final duel? I felt a bit like that when the music is so hell bent on providing physical near blow-for-blow commentary on the action but eschewing largely the big themes of the film. Something like the Nature's music feels really dropped in among all the small bits and pieces Shore composed for PJ to play around with.

And not focusing on just Thorin and Azog but having that useless duel between Legolas and Bolg doesn't really help the matter because it divides the attention of the music.

I think that the action music in BOTFA seems like a cross between AUJ and DOS action music in some ways to me.

For example compare Sons of Durin 3:28 to 3:23 of Out of the Frying Pan the brass underneath

I have been re-listening to AUJ a lot in the last couple of weeks and the action music is still some of the best material to emerge from the Hobbit trilogy. E.g. Out of the Frying Pan is brilliantly constructed in the form it is on the album.

[KK 3,307]

The Dain's theme statement in Battle For The Mountain is the perfect example of what I like and what I don't like in BOFA: for some reason, the first part of the theme (from 01:01 to 01:44) sounds pretty modern and generic to me (must be because of the underlying rythm), while the second half of the theme (01:44 to 02:08) sounds like pure Middle-Earth music to me, and is one of the highlights of not only this score, but the trilogy as a whole.

The whole BOFA score is like that too me: alternating between music that doesn't feel Middle-Earthy enough and Middle-Earth music at its finest.

What really bugs me about that cue is around 1:25. You have what should be a glorious soaring passage, but the lower bass ostinati are mixed so loud, and the high strings are criminally buried in the bottom, and what should be "soaring" sounds pretty stuffy. Idiots!