Howard Shore's The Battle of the Five Armies (Hobbit Part 3)

[Incanus 5,716]

The Dain's theme statement in Battle For The Mountain is the perfect example of what I like and what I don't like in BOFA: for some reason, the first part of the theme (from 01:01 to 01:44) sounds pretty modern and generic to me (must be because of the underlying rythm), while the second half of the theme (01:44 to 02:08) sounds like pure Middle-Earth music to me, and is one of the highlights of not only this score, but the trilogy as a whole.

The whole BOFA score is like that too me: alternating between music that doesn't feel Middle-Earthy enough and Middle-Earth music at its finest.

What really bugs me about that cue is around 1:25. You have what should be a glorious soaring passage, but the lower bass ostinato are mixed so loud, and the high strings are criminally buried in the bottom, and what should be "soaring" sounds pretty stuffy. Idiots!

I can imagine PJ yelling during the final mix: MORE BASS! I CAN STILL HEAR THE SOUND EFFECTS! I WANT THE AUDIENCE TO BE DEAF BY THE TIME THEY LEAVE THE THEATER!

Alas the mix ended incredibly bassy on the album. Something like To the Death can be unbearably loud when I listen on the stereo, given the mix and the actual loudness of the music itself.

[Jay 37,375]

What's more fascinating, however, is that the final two tracks from BOTFA, "The Return Journey" and "There and Back Again", play out, in tone and style, like the previous 2 hours of music never happened. You get the feeling that this music really does transition into FotR, but literally nothing else up to this point does.

Wow, very astute.

It's worth pointing out that the music at the very end of the picture was some of the earliest material written for Five Armies.

Tell us more!

[Incanus 5,716]

What's more fascinating, however, is that the final two tracks from BOTFA, "The Return Journey" and "There and Back Again", play out, in tone and style, like the previous 2 hours of music never happened. You get the feeling that this music really does transition into FotR, but literally nothing else up to this point does.

Wow, very astute.

It's worth pointing out that the music at the very end of the picture was some of the earliest material written for Five Armies.

Tell us more!

No no let Doug tell us more! How can we lure him back to JWFan again?

[gkgyver 1,646]

Cookies?

[Incanus 5,716]

Cookies?

You have met him, haven't you? What are his weaknesses?

[gkgyver 1,646]

The Dain's theme statement in Battle For The Mountain is the perfect example of what I like and what I don't like in BOFA: for some reason, the first part of the theme (from 01:01 to 01:44) sounds pretty modern and generic to me (must be because of the underlying rythm), while the second half of the theme (01:44 to 02:08) sounds like pure Middle-Earth music to me, and is one of the highlights of not only this score, but the trilogy as a whole.

The whole BOFA score is like that too me: alternating between music that doesn't feel Middle-Earthy enough and Middle-Earth music at its finest.

Hm, I don't really agree with that. I agree that the score has some moments that count amongst the best of the trilogy, or even all six films, but BOTFA as a whole has a very strong modern touch, also the highlights. If I had to pin down what gives that disctinct impression, I would say it's the fact that the majority of the score feels the need to add some sort of rhythm to the music, without which 90% of today's scores apparently don't seem to be complete; may it be strings or percussion, there are precious few moments that really convey a sense of stillness, and make you want to linger in the moment. For the most part, it's really driven. That's what LotR, and also AUJ, and sometimes DoS, did so well, those large, overarching musical strokes. BOTFA is too fragmented to create that feeling.

LotR had it too, what you described above, that mix of pure Middle-Earth bliss, and more modern, contemporary elements. Just look at Two Towers. You have for example the amazing "Where is the horse and the rider?" sequence, which is preceeded by typical Shore-isms, like in "War Is Upon Us", and then followed by a typical trumpet fanfare with snare drums. The difference between that and BOTFA is just that in BOTFA, everything sounds more modern, and it lacks those overarching musical sequences.

To me, the only thing in BOTFA that is 100% like LotR is the choir work.

Cookies?

You have met him, haven't you? What are his weaknesses?

As far as I can tell, only his kindness

Maybe a simple "please" will do?

[Incanus 5,716]

Cookies?

You have met him, haven't you? What are his weaknesses?

As far as I can tell, only his kindness

Maybe a simple "please" will do?

Indeed. He is a kind fellow. So please Doug! Pretty please arrive to answer our obsessive questions!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,375]

If I had to pin down what gives that disctinct impression, I would say it's the fact that the majority of the score feels the need to add some sort of rhythm to the music, without which 90% of today's scores apparently don't seem to be complete; may it be strings or percussion, there are precious few moments that really convey a sense of stillness, and make you want to linger in the moment. For the most part, it's really driven. That's what LotR, and also AUJ, and sometimes DoS, did so well, those large, overarching musical strokes. BOTFA is too fragmented to create that feeling.

Damn, you nailed it. That's what it is that makes BOFA less special for me. It's all the rhythmic drive, and how there's not much else.

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

One of my main early gripes with the LOTR scores (one that i dont care anymore since i started to love the music) is the continous bum-bum-bum-bum undescore in many tracks, almost (if not) all the action music has this.

[Incanus 5,716]

If I had to pin down what gives that disctinct impression, I would say it's the fact that the majority of the score feels the need to add some sort of rhythm to the music, without which 90% of today's scores apparently don't seem to be complete; may it be strings or percussion, there are precious few moments that really convey a sense of stillness, and make you want to linger in the moment. For the most part, it's really driven. That's what LotR, and also AUJ, and sometimes DoS, did so well, those large, overarching musical strokes. BOTFA is too fragmented to create that feeling.

Damn, you nailed it. That's what it is that makes BOFA less special for me. It's all the rhythmic drive, and how there's not much else.

Yup that I think is the main reflection of the modern blockbuster scoring in this score. It is often unnecessarily loud and it has a very strong focus on rhythm and propulsion in the action, and not just the action. While it is not enough to make its downfall it works to its detriment.

[Jay 37,375]

bum bum bum underscore?

[Faleel 5,365]

bum bum bum underscore?

As in you are crying out in pain because your bum is sore after listening to all the LOTR scores straight through

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,716]

bum bum bum underscore?

As in you are crying out in pain because your bum is sore after listening to all the LOTR scores straight through

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Incanus 5,716]

If I had to pin down what gives that disctinct impression, I would say it's the fact that the majority of the score feels the need to add some sort of rhythm to the music, without which 90% of today's scores apparently don't seem to be complete; may it be strings or percussion, there are precious few moments that really convey a sense of stillness, and make you want to linger in the moment. For the most part, it's really driven. That's what LotR, and also AUJ, and sometimes DoS, did so well, those large, overarching musical strokes. BOTFA is too fragmented to create that feeling.

Damn, you nailed it. That's what it is that makes BOFA less special for me. It's all the rhythmic drive, and how there's not much else.

Yup that I think is the main reflection of the modern blockbuster scoring in this score. It is often unnecessarily loud and it has a very strong focus on rhythm and propulsion in the action, and not just the action. While it is not enough to make its downfall it works to its detriment.

I'd rather the Hobbit scores were this way than being unnecessarily quietly mixed as they tend to be in DOS and BOTFA!

I am not refering only to the movie experience (where the music is often mixed all over the place and treated appallingly at time) but rather how it ended up on the album and how different elements are mixed, a concern other people have touched upon in this thread. As I said before something like To the Death is mixed with favour to the lower registers and with loudness in mind so the percussion, brass and strings, all the elements of propulsion, becomes so blaring it hurts the ears. No it is not that I have my stereo up way too loud but the mix. I know it has been also written in part so it would not get underfoot in the mix as anything light would be lost in a soundmix of such battle heavy film but as KK said on the last page the elements of the score are also treated to this low end emphasis which robs the score some of its intricacies in the ears of the listener.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,716]

I am not refering only to the movie experience (where the music is often mixed all over the place and treated appallingly at time) but rather how it ended up on the album and how different elements are mixed, a concern other people have touched upon in this thread. As I said before something like To the Death is mixed with favour to the lower registers and with loudness in mind so the percussion, brass and strings, all the elements of propulsion, becomes so blaring it hurts the ears. No it is not that I have my stereo up way too loud but the mix. I know it has been also written in part so it would not get underfoot in the mix as anything light would be lost in a soundmix of such battle heavy film but as KK said on the last page the elements of the score are also treated to this low end emphasis which robs the score some of its intricacies in the ears of the listener.

So many pretty words to basically the mix is shit.

Well yes. But you know I'm verbose! And I don't swear!

I could perhaps concede that the mix does share some qualities with excrement but that is as far as I will go.

[Faleel 5,365]

I am not refering only to the movie experience (where the music is often mixed all over the place and treated appallingly at time) but rather how it ended up on the album and how different elements are mixed, a concern other people have touched upon in this thread. As I said before something like To the Death is mixed with favour to the lower registers and with loudness in mind so the percussion, brass and strings, all the elements of propulsion, becomes so blaring it hurts the ears. No it is not that I have my stereo up way too loud but the mix. I know it has been also written in part so it would not get underfoot in the mix as anything light would be lost in a soundmix of such battle heavy film but as KK said on the last page the elements of the score are also treated to this low end emphasis which robs the score some of its intricacies in the ears of the listener.

So many pretty words to basically the mix is !@#$%^&*.

You used too few apparently.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,716]

I like to keep it concise.

People can fill in the blanks. Short sentences get the point across!

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

I meant pum, pum, pum...

or whatever... smaller quieter versions of boom, boom, boom...

Musically illiterate! i know.

[Jay 37,375]

Can you post a specific part of a specific track that is an example of what you're talking about?

[gkgyver 1,646]

One of my main early gripes with the LOTR scores (one that i dont care anymore since i started to love the music) is the continous bum-bum-bum-bum undescore in many tracks, almost (if not) all the action music has this.

That's not what we're talking about at all. At least I'm not.

The string and percussion patterns in BOTFA are mixed very dry, and up front, even in the large battle scenes. This dryness and prominent mix gives the aural impression of small space, and it impacts the perception of scope in the music. It doesn't sound very big in scope, it drains the music of aural largesse, which also affects the feel of the film. That problem with the music, in combination with all the green screens makes the battle feel small as hell. And it's a thing that is exclusive to BOTFA as well. AUJ had zero of that, and DoS had very little.

In LotR, the percussion purely aided the orchestral drive that was inherent in the music. It was clean, and it had determination, it was very clear in its purpose. It never replaced melody or harmonic progression. In BOTFA, the percussion becomes such a central element of the music sometimes that it takes away interest, because percussion will never be as interesting as pure music, and it does take the place of melody and harmony sometimes, like in Dain's arrival. It doesn't go anywhere. In LotR, the percussion wasn't as prominent.

It's so clear what the difference is when you just compare the arrival of Dain to the arrival of Rohan on the Pelennor. Dain's arrival: purely rhythmic, very little, if any, melody. Rohan's arrival: Rohan theme with great play on Nature's Reclamation, and very little percussion and rhythm, that only supports the orchestra.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[KK 3,307]

It was drier than LOTR, but hardly bad. BOTFA's mix is just awful.

[Faleel 5,365]

One of my main early gripes with the LOTR scores (one that i dont care anymore since i started to love the music) is the continous bum-bum-bum-bum undescore in many tracks, almost (if not) all the action music has this.

That's not what we're talking about at all. At least I'm not.

The string and percussion patterns in BOTFA are mixed very dry, and up front, even in the large battle scenes. This dryness and prominent mix gives the aural impression of small space, and it impacts the perception of scope in the music. It doesn't sound very big in scope, it drains the music of aural largesse, which also affects the feel of the film. That problem with the music, in combination with all the green screens makes the battle feel small as hell. And it's a thing that is exclusive to BOTFA as well. AUJ had zero of that, and DoS had very little.

In LotR, the percussion purely aided the orchestral drive that was inherent in the music. It was clean, and it had determination, it was very clear in its purpose. It never replaced melody or harmonic progression. In BOTFA, the percussion becomes such a central element of the music sometimes that it takes away interest, because percussion will never be as interesting as pure music, and it does take the place of melody and harmony sometimes, like in Dain's arrival. It doesn't go anywhere. In LotR, the percussion wasn't as prominent.

It's so clear what the difference is when you just compare the arrival of Dain to the arrival of Rohan on the Pelennor. Dain's arrival: purely rhythmic, very little, if any, melody. Rohan's arrival: Rohan theme with great play on Nature's Reclamation, and very little percussion and rhythm, that only supports the orchestra.

D's Arrival and ohan's Arrival are two different scenes, Dain's arrival is an edgy confrontation between two forces that should be united, showcasing Dain's rough personality, Rohan's Arrival focuses on the emotions of the arrival of Gondor's salvation.

Also, Percusison and Rhythm have been a big part of LOTR since forever, for example the end of Lighting of the Beacons. and Khazad-dum

[gkgyver 1,646]

One of my main early gripes with the LOTR scores (one that i dont care anymore since i started to love the music) is the continous bum-bum-bum-bum undescore in many tracks, almost (if not) all the action music has this.

That's not what we're talking about at all. At least I'm not.

The string and percussion patterns in BOTFA are mixed very dry, and up front, even in the large battle scenes. This dryness and prominent mix gives the aural impression of small space, and it impacts the perception of scope in the music. It doesn't sound very big in scope, it drains the music of aural largesse, which also affects the feel of the film. That problem with the music, in combination with all the green screens makes the battle feel small as hell. And it's a thing that is exclusive to BOTFA as well. AUJ had zero of that, and DoS had very little.

In LotR, the percussion purely aided the orchestral drive that was inherent in the music. It was clean, and it had determination, it was very clear in its purpose. It never replaced melody or harmonic progression. In BOTFA, the percussion becomes such a central element of the music sometimes that it takes away interest, because percussion will never be as interesting as pure music, and it does take the place of melody and harmony sometimes, like in Dain's arrival. It doesn't go anywhere. In LotR, the percussion wasn't as prominent.

It's so clear what the difference is when you just compare the arrival of Dain to the arrival of Rohan on the Pelennor. Dain's arrival: purely rhythmic, very little, if any, melody. Rohan's arrival: Rohan theme with great play on Nature's Reclamation, and very little percussion and rhythm, that only supports the orchestra.

D's Arrival and ohan's Arrival are two different scenes, Dain's arrival is an edgy confrontation between two forces that should be united, showcasing Dain's rough personality, Rohan's Arrival focuses on the emotions of the arrival of Gondor's salvation.

Also, Percusison and Rhythm have been a big part of LOTR since forever, for example the end of Lighting of the Beacons. and Khazad-dum

The percussion in LotB and KD are peripheral, and play third fiddle to the actual music. LotB isn't driven by percussive rhythms.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Faleel 5,365]

But you must admit that if you were to take the percussion out of the Muster of Rohan, The Siege of Gondor, or Brass Buttons it would lose something.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Barnald 365]

It seems reminiscent of Girion to me, though it sounds like Khuzdul lyrics, so I'm wondering if it might be related to the Windlance. Maybe we could hear something more in the EE?

[Incanus 5,716]

Has it been discussed that at 2:46 of 'Shores of the Long Lake' we hear the rhythm of the unused theme at 2:04 of 'IrontFoot' (SE versions)?

We seem to agree this likely an unused theme for Bard, and it makes sense since it plays directly after the Bard the Leader theme in the lake shores scene.

I can't remember if it has been discussed but it does seem to relate to Bard context-wise.

It seems reminiscent of Girion to me, though it sounds like Khuzdul lyrics, so I'm wondering if it might be related to the Windlance. Maybe we could hear something more in the EE?

I can't quite make out the lyrics but the male chorus would suggest some dwarven connection perhaps.

[Barnald 365]

Perhaps there's a new added scene where Bard marries Dis at the end? If one of his daughters marries Bilbo, and Azog is unmasked to reveal a Ringwraith underneath, and Thorin is revealed to have been married to a Gondorian lady at one point, all our musical questions will be answered.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,716]

Perhaps there's a new added scene where Bard marries Dis at the end? If one of his daughters marries Bilbo, and Azog is unmasked to reveal a Ringwraith underneath, and Thorin is revealed to have been married to a Gondorian lady at one point, all our musical questions will be answered.

Don't push it Barny. PJ still has time for a re-shoot.

It seems reminiscent of Girion to me, though it sounds like Khuzdul lyrics, so I'm wondering if it might be related to the Windlance. Maybe we could hear something more in the EE?

I can't quite make out the lyrics but the male chorus would suggest some dwarven connection perhaps.

The lyrics translate as follow:

Oh, Bard, Great Leader Of Men,

Slay Alfrid The Conniving

For The Sake Of The Moviegoers

And we all whole heartedly agree! Shore knew exactly what the audiences were thinking! We became part of the subtext of the movie! Shore is just so awesome!

[Barnald 365]

If only Bard understood Khuzdul, our prayers might have been answered.

[Incanus 5,716]

If only Bard understood Khuzdul, our prayers might have been answered.

Verily so!

Still SUH's observation was a sharp one. I thought I had heard that passage in Ironfoot somewhere before but could not quite place it. Now I know. So thanks SUH!

[gkgyver 1,646]

I think that is the motif popping up everywhere in the score, like for example when Bilbo grieves over Thorin, only that it's layered with Girion/Bard rhythm in Ironfoot/Shores of the Long Lake.

[Incanus 5,716]

I think that is the motif popping up everywhere in the score, like for example when Bilbo grieves over Thorin, only that it's layered with Girion/Bard rhythm in Ironfoot/Shores of the Long Lake.

A few timestamps would be useful to illustrate this Georg.

[Barnald 365]

Noticing how prominent Bilbo's Adventure (or at least something a lot like it) is in The Return Journey and There and Back Again (and also in that unreleased bit with Bilbo and Gandalf), I was reminded of the unreleased (and indeed unheard if that's a word) part of 'My Dear Frodo' which comes in near the end of this video (from about 7:25). If heard in the film, it would certainly have brought a nice symmetry to the start and end of the trilogy. I truly hope we hear this composition in full someday, as well as getting the film version, which I also love:

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Barnald 365]

Well I'm thinking Bilbo's Adventure as heard in 'My Dear Frodo'. There are definitely parts of the tracks and cues I mentioned heavily reminiscent of that. But I can't remember now what the general consensus on Bilbo's Adventure theme was.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Barnald 365]

Do we not hear it also at 1:55 in 'There and Back Again'?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Barnald 365]

I've never known you to sit on the fence before

[BloodBoal 7,538]