Incanus 5,716 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 1:19I'd still say it is the Hobbit Outline derived material joined with the Fussy theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnald 365 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 My theme list is massively out of date, it all needs to be updated.Especially if Doug's book will be out by Christmas!Anyways, I remember the discussion was that it was more of a "Dwarf vs Elves" theme, showing up when Thorin is pissed off about elves, and when Thranduil's around (who is always pissed off at Thorin)I think that was another of my crazy suggestions. It would be the only obvious way to link it to both characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,716 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 My theme list is massively out of date, it all needs to be updated.Especially if Doug's book will be out by Christmas!Anyways, I remember the discussion was that it was more of a "Dwarf vs Elves" theme, showing up when Thorin is pissed off about elves, and when Thranduil's around (who is always pissed off at Thorin)I think that was another of my crazy suggestions. It would be the only obvious way to link it to both characters.Well that is an interesting notion.04:25The Unexpected Party doesn't run that long BB, not even the extended version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,365 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 04:25There is no such timestamp!The only problem with that is that there already is a Dwarves vs. Elves theme, and its not that one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnald 365 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 04:25There is no such timestamp!The only problem with that is that there already is a Dwarves vs. Elves theme, and its not that one!There is? Do tell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,365 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 The Woodland Realm 1:09 Barny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,716 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 The Woodland Realm 1:09 Barny.More timestamps please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,716 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 The Woodland Realm 1:09 Barny.That's just a martial motif for the Woodland Realm, methinks. This motif pops up many times in BOFA, during moments that have nothing with the Dwarves/Elves conflict.The Woodland Realm 1:09 Barny.More timestamps please!Most of DOS doesn't use this endcap to Erebor, but the descending phrase shows up:The Woodland Realm from DOS. This time it underscores the company being put into their cells1:11-1:22 is where the descending theme plays. Erebor doesn't play any time around here.This is what I call the martial idea for the Woodland Realm.It also appears at 02:03-02:29/02:39-02:50 in The Gathering Of The Clouds, at 01:45-01:58 in The Fallen and 03:33-03:40 in Courage And Wisdom.Thanks BB. And yeah it would seem to connect with the elves more than the dwarves.Doug's book can't come soon enough! I want canon clarifications to all of this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,365 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 so what is the timestamp for the theme we thought was Gandalf's secondary theme in BOTFA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,716 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 so what is the timestamp for the theme we thought was Gandalf's secondary theme in BOTFA?The Return Journey opening 0:00- and then again at 3:32- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnald 365 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 The clarification on 3:32 is useful, because I saw someone ask (I think it was a comment on YouTube) why House of Durin was playing here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,716 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 I wonder if Thorin's funeral will feature Gandalf material or dwarven music or both (Gandalf apparently gives some kind of speech there). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnald 365 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 By the way, does the descending string melody that opens "A Spell Of Concealment" (extended version), and which to my ears appears also, for example, when Gandalf says to Bilbo at the borders of Mirkwood that he had changed, have any implications?In general, I noticed that this musical gesture, don't know how to call it, when you write an ascending or descending line, and you play the same note twice in a row (second bar of House of Durin theme for example, D - E - E - A), appears a hell of a lot in these scores, but I don't know if this is just Shore's style, or if it has any meaning.In light of the above discussion, I was wondering if these too (especially the bit at 1:46 in Mirkwood) are related to this secondary Gandalf theme? I'm going largely on a vaguely similar sound (to me at least) and context btw, so they could in truth be completely different for all I know. And I also note that Doug didn't mention it popping up in DoS, which goes against this argument.I wonder if Thorin's funeral will feature Gandalf material or dwarven music or both (Gandalf apparently gives some kind of speech there).I'm very much hoping for Dwarven stuff to be honest, preferably with choral elements Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,365 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 (Gandalf apparently gives some kind of speech there)."Of all who I have met on my travels, he was the most...human." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnald 365 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Surely Thrain was Dwarfier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,716 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Surely Thrain was Dwarfier?People knew him as the Dwarfy Dwarf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,377 Posted May 8, 2015 Author Share Posted May 8, 2015 I hope Shore has a desire to write a nice symphony based on his Hobbit score. Some of the themes he came up with are very strong and memorable, and then got severely underutilized in the final cuts of the films and CDs. I could listen to endless variations of his Company theme (Journey theme) and Baggins/Took theme, and I'd love more variants of the Radagast, Gandalf, and Goblin material Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstrox 6,651 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Thank you Doug for coming around and answering people's anal retentive questions, btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,716 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Thank you Doug for coming around and answering people's anal retentive questions, btw.Yes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,646 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 so what is the timestamp for the theme we thought was Gandalf's secondary theme in BOTFA?The Return Journey opening 0:00- and then again at 3:32-Huh?Wasn't it consensus that this is the theme opening My Dear Frodo? Because it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnald 365 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 In my defence, I only ever said the secondary theme was heard at the start of Return Journey, not at 3:32. Blame Inky! He's the evil one, not Conrad Pope! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnald 365 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Blame Inky for deceiving me, a poor simpleton. I just assume he - and indeed everyone here - has superior music knowledge and bow to it. I know not what I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,716 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 so what is the timestamp for the theme we thought was Gandalf's secondary theme in BOTFA?The Return Journey opening 0:00- and then again at 3:32-Huh?Wasn't it consensus that this is the theme opening My Dear Frodo?Which is the House Of Durin. And yes, I believe it's still that.Inky is talking out of his ass! And so is Barny. Doug didn't confirm that. He just said what we call Gandalf's secondary theme shows up in The Return Journey. He didn't give timestamps.My guess would be 04'03 (a sombre rendition of the theme).Very well then. Although I have no idea why the House of Durin would play when Gandalf and Bilbo exchange glances after the battle is over and they sit silently together (beginning of the track) and when the two are shaking hands to bid farewell for the last time at the borders of the Shire. But fair enough. Either Doug's book will vindicate me or I am dead wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,646 Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Looking at the piano sheet, it looks like a hybrid between Gandalf's secondary theme and House of Durin.00:00 is definitely the Gandalf theme, with the final chord shifting from B minor to B major. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,716 Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Considering that Doug has mentioned in the past how these scores even more than LotR have themes sharing common elements it might not be any wonder that this "not Gandalf's secondary theme but something with a broader meaning" shares something of the musical shape with the House of Durin.As for the broader application could it be something like "The Frienship of Gandalf" theme as it does appear in the moments he is guiding, helping or otherwise interacting with Bilbo and the dwarves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Does Doug know if Augie's Great Municipal Band is a version of The Emperors Theme? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,716 Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Doug knows everything!As for the broader application could it be something like "The Frienship of Gandalf" themeYeah, sure. That's why it plays when Gandalf decides to leave the Company because Thorin pissed him off.Hey he offered friendship and only got a kick in the head from Thorin. It's not the theme's fault it's meaning was not accepted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,716 Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 one the major Dwarf themes in AUJ began life as a Dol Guldur theme! Shore reshaped it and made it Dwarf-ier."major" dwarf themes in AUJ? Wouldn't the only "major" AUJ dwarf related themes be Erebor, Thorin, and Misty Mountains?No.So no more speculation on this?What I can think of (perhaps parts of these are separate themes, like the second line of Thorin's theme):- Erebor- Thorin- House of Durin- Dwarf Lords- The Company Journey (opening of Edge of the Wild)- The Company Quest (Erebor bonus track)I'm trying to think what could most easily sound evil if change slightly, maybe Dwarf Lords (though that's certainly not a major theme)?Doug already answered to Faleel that it is not the House of Durin so we can count that out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,377 Posted May 10, 2015 Author Share Posted May 10, 2015 I think Doug's referring to the four note "end cap" that often plays after Erebor in AUJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,377 Posted May 10, 2015 Author Share Posted May 10, 2015 I never said that was Thrain's theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnald 365 Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 My main problem with the sequence, aside from the fact that it shouldn't have been used to open a film, is Bard's ridiculous decision to use his son as a prop for the Black Arrow, which made me smile the moment I saw it in the cinema. Bard seems like father of the year material in large part, so it's entirely at odds with the character. And interestingly, Luke Evans spoke at Hobbitcon 3 recently, and said that it was PJ's idea - Boyens and Walsh, being mothers, hated the idea that a parent would employ their child so recklessly. I know people will say "Well Bard thought they were going to die anyway, so why not?", but it was just stupid. For starters, it probably would have torn the skin from his shoulder. He should have just used his bow.I know you were talking about the music, but having read Evans' comments I felt the need to bring them up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,377 Posted May 10, 2015 Author Share Posted May 10, 2015 Wait, who didn't want the windlance to be used? I thought it would have made sense to use it! Otherwise, what was the point of setting it up in AUJ and DOS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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