Howard Shore's The Battle of the Five Armies (Hobbit Part 3)

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Incanus 5,716]

But then, by god, why not have it rescored? Does Jackson honestly think it's better for the film to have silence instead?

Well, there's precedent for that approach in LotR. Just think of how the Ring's "heartbeat" replaced Shore's music during the Déagol/Sméagol scenes in RotK, or when Frodo holds the Rings in Sammath Naur,

PJ was wrong! He must be damned!

But remember, everything is still awesome!

I think it`s just come down to what`s the most efficient way to do things. Up until AUJ, the system was that Shore kept scoring the footage he got, and revised according to the revisions he was sent. But with DoS, Shore was halfway across the world, and PJ and co just deemed it more efficient to record as much music as possible in a set time period, and then just deal with it later in the process. This obviously hurts the picture, but it means the score is one less thing PJ has to worry about as he gets closer to the deadline.

And I think Shore at this point is kind of tired of the Middle-Earth film-making process, and probably prefers to get it done in one go and leave it to the hands of the orchestra. I might even dare say he`s a bit eager to be finished with this franchise and move on to other things. This process has taken its toll on him, so it`s hard not to imagine more than a little fatigue on his part.

Regardless, as long as he continues to provide such great music, colour me satisfied.

That's an odd reasoning. When the score is done recording, and Jackson doesn't even have a final cut yet, he surely will have to worry about conforming the music at some point? And when it can't be re-recorded, he's basically just shifting the problem from the shoulders of the composer to the shoulders of the editor(s). Someone has to worry, and the film still suffers.

Also, does Shore write everything in one go because he's across the world, or is he across the world because he was asked to write everything in one go? Big difference.

Do we know anything definite about this post production process Georg? To an extent that we can really say either way for certain how the system works?

[Kühni 485]

.

[KK 3,307]

I think it`s just come down to what`s the most efficient way to do things. Up until AUJ, the system was that Shore kept scoring the footage he got, and revised according to the revisions he was sent. But with DoS, Shore was halfway across the world, and PJ and co just deemed it more efficient to record as much music as possible in a set time period, and then just deal with it later in the process. This obviously hurts the picture, but it means the score is one less thing PJ has to worry about as he gets closer to the deadline.

And I think Shore at this point is kind of tired of the Middle-Earth film-making process, and probably prefers to get it done in one go and leave it to the hands of the orchestra. I might even dare say he`s a bit eager to be finished with this franchise and move on to other things. This process has taken its toll on him, so it`s hard not to imagine more than a little fatigue on his part.

Regardless, as long as he continues to provide such great music, colour me satisfied.

That's an odd reasoning. When the score is done recording, and Jackson doesn't even have a final cut yet, he surely will have to worry about conforming the music at some point? And when it can't be re-recorded, he's basically just shifting the problem from the shoulders of the composer to the shoulders of the editor(s). Someone has to worry, and the film still suffers.

Right, but it`s much easier for a team of 3 editors to butcher music to conform to the picture, rather than continuing to hire a 90 piece orchestra, a 30 member choir, a 15 member team of orchestrators, distributors, copyists, etc, one of Hollywood`s best and busiest orchestrators, and a probably tired composer all the way in New York.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[gkgyver 1,645]

But then, by god, why not have it rescored? Does Jackson honestly think it's better for the film to have silence instead?

Well, there's precedent for that approach in LotR. Just think of how the Ring's "heartbeat" replaced Shore's music during the Déagol/Sméagol scenes in RotK, or when Frodo holds the Rings in Sammath Naur,

Well, yes, but then he dialed out entire cues. And to an actual effect that worked. Cutting out huge chunks in the middle of longer cues in DoS doesn't serve an effect, it's apparently cut because he thinks the music doesn't quite fit, and it messes up the pace.

[Incanus 5,716]

I think it`s just come down to what`s the most efficient way to do things. Up until AUJ, the system was that Shore kept scoring the footage he got, and revised according to the revisions he was sent. But with DoS, Shore was halfway across the world, and PJ and co just deemed it more efficient to record as much music as possible in a set time period, and then just deal with it later in the process. This obviously hurts the picture, but it means the score is one less thing PJ has to worry about as he gets closer to the deadline.

And I think Shore at this point is kind of tired of the Middle-Earth film-making process, and probably prefers to get it done in one go and leave it to the hands of the orchestra. I might even dare say he`s a bit eager to be finished with this franchise and move on to other things. This process has taken its toll on him, so it`s hard not to imagine more than a little fatigue on his part.

Regardless, as long as he continues to provide such great music, colour me satisfied.

That's an odd reasoning. When the score is done recording, and Jackson doesn't even have a final cut yet, he surely will have to worry about conforming the music at some point? And when it can't be re-recorded, he's basically just shifting the problem from the shoulders of the composer to the shoulders of the editor(s). Someone has to worry, and the film still suffers.

Right, but it`s much easier for a team of 3 editors to butcher music to conform to the picture, rather than continuing to hire a 90 piece orchestra, a 15 member team of orchestrators, distributors, copyists, etc, one of Hollywood`s best and busiest orchestrators, and a probably tired composer all the way in New York.

Yeah there is that darn concern for money too.

[Jay 37,374]

I don't see the point in complaining about how bad TBOTFA might be before we've ever heard a note or seen the film. Why put out negative energy into the world instead of of positive?

If PJ does butcher Shore's intentions in the final cut, I'll be the first to complain about it, for sure! But why the preemptive negativity? What does it accomplish?

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Incanus 5,716]

But then, by god, why not have it rescored? Does Jackson honestly think it's better for the film to have silence instead?

Well, there's precedent for that approach in LotR. Just think of how the Ring's "heartbeat" replaced Shore's music during the Déagol/Sméagol scenes in RotK, or when Frodo holds the Rings in Sammath Naur,

Well, yes, but then he dialed out entire cues. And to an actual effect that worked. Cutting out huge chunks in the middle of longer cues in DoS doesn't serve an effect, it's apparently cut because he thinks the music doesn't quite fit, and it messes up the pace.

E.g. the final rollercoaster at Erebor with dwarves against Smaug was really oddly spotted and the lack of music really sucked a lot of the energy and momentum out of the scenes the way PJ had treated the music.

I don't see the point in complaining about how bad TBOTFA might be before we've ever heard a note or seen the film. Why put out negative energy into the world instead of of positive?

If PJ does butcher it in the final cut, I'll be the first to complain about it, for sure! But why the preemptive negativity? What does it accomplish?

It is our nature as film music fans. We already lament for the unborn note and chord that was silenced ere it ever got out of the french horn and on to the celluloid. We grieve for the great "what could have been".

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[KK 3,307]

I think it`s just come down to what`s the most efficient way to do things. Up until AUJ, the system was that Shore kept scoring the footage he got, and revised according to the revisions he was sent. But with DoS, Shore was halfway across the world, and PJ and co just deemed it more efficient to record as much music as possible in a set time period, and then just deal with it later in the process. This obviously hurts the picture, but it means the score is one less thing PJ has to worry about as he gets closer to the deadline.

And I think Shore at this point is kind of tired of the Middle-Earth film-making process, and probably prefers to get it done in one go and leave it to the hands of the orchestra. I might even dare say he`s a bit eager to be finished with this franchise and move on to other things. This process has taken its toll on him, so it`s hard not to imagine more than a little fatigue on his part.

Regardless, as long as he continues to provide such great music, colour me satisfied.

That's an odd reasoning. When the score is done recording, and Jackson doesn't even have a final cut yet, he surely will have to worry about conforming the music at some point? And when it can't be re-recorded, he's basically just shifting the problem from the shoulders of the composer to the shoulders of the editor(s). Someone has to worry, and the film still suffers.

Right, but it`s much easier for a team of 3 editors to butcher music to conform to the picture, rather than continuing to hire a 90 piece orchestra, a 15 member team of orchestrators, distributors, copyists, etc, one of Hollywood`s best and busiest orchestrators, and a probably tired composer all the way in New York.

Yeah there is that darn concern for money too.

It`s not even so much about the money (because they clearly have plenty of that), it`s just a lot more hassle to organize. PJ probably doesn`t want to be attending recording sessions, when he`s not sure if the film will be finished in the first place, a week before the deadline.

Of course, none of this would happen if PJ wasn`t more in control of his filmmaking process and schedule. As Conrad would often like to point out, back in the old days, edits would be locked and ready by the sessions!

It is our nature as film music fans. We already lament for the unborn note and chord that was silenced ere it ever got out of the french horn and on to the celluloid. We grieve for the great "what could have been".

But EVERYTHING IS STILL AWESOME!!

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Incanus 5,716]

I think it`s just come down to what`s the most efficient way to do things. Up until AUJ, the system was that Shore kept scoring the footage he got, and revised according to the revisions he was sent. But with DoS, Shore was halfway across the world, and PJ and co just deemed it more efficient to record as much music as possible in a set time period, and then just deal with it later in the process. This obviously hurts the picture, but it means the score is one less thing PJ has to worry about as he gets closer to the deadline.

And I think Shore at this point is kind of tired of the Middle-Earth film-making process, and probably prefers to get it done in one go and leave it to the hands of the orchestra. I might even dare say he`s a bit eager to be finished with this franchise and move on to other things. This process has taken its toll on him, so it`s hard not to imagine more than a little fatigue on his part.

Regardless, as long as he continues to provide such great music, colour me satisfied.

That's an odd reasoning. When the score is done recording, and Jackson doesn't even have a final cut yet, he surely will have to worry about conforming the music at some point? And when it can't be re-recorded, he's basically just shifting the problem from the shoulders of the composer to the shoulders of the editor(s). Someone has to worry, and the film still suffers.

Right, but it`s much easier for a team of 3 editors to butcher music to conform to the picture, rather than continuing to hire a 90 piece orchestra, a 15 member team of orchestrators, distributors, copyists, etc, one of Hollywood`s best and busiest orchestrators, and a probably tired composer all the way in New York.

Yeah there is that darn concern for money too.

It`s not even so much about the money (because they clearly have plenty of that), it`s just a lot more hassle to organize. PJ probably doesn`t want to be attending recording sessions, when he`s not sure if the film will be finished in the first place, a week before the deadline.

Of course, none of this would happen if PJ wasn`t more in control of his filmmaking process and schedule. As Conrad would often like to point out, back in the old days, edits would be locked and ready by the sessions!

It is our nature as film music fans. We already lament for the unborn note and chord that was silenced ere it ever got out of the french horn and on to the celluloid. We grieve for the great "what could have been".

But EVERYTHING IS STILL AWESOME!!

Oh yes. EVERYTHING IS AWESOME. Makes sense.

[KK 3,307]

I don't see the point in complaining about how bad TBOTFA might be before we've ever heard a note or seen the film. Why put out negative energy into the world instead of of positive?

If PJ does butcher it in the final cut, I'll be the first to complain about it, for sure! But why the preemptive negativity? What does it accomplish?

I miss when Doug came to the forums to calm things down.

He probably hates this place.

[Incanus 5,716]

I don't see the point in complaining about how bad TBOTFA might be before we've ever heard a note or seen the film. Why put out negative energy into the world instead of of positive?

If PJ does butcher it in the final cut, I'll be the first to complain about it, for sure! But why the preemptive negativity? What does it accomplish?

I miss when Doug came to the forums to calm things down.

I think Doug avoids JWFan because of shall we say more than enthusiastic "debates" we have here. Conspiracy theories and all that.

[gkgyver 1,645]

But then, by god, why not have it rescored? Does Jackson honestly think it's better for the film to have silence instead?

Well, there's precedent for that approach in LotR. Just think of how the Ring's "heartbeat" replaced Shore's music during the Déagol/Sméagol scenes in RotK, or when Frodo holds the Rings in Sammath Naur,

PJ was wrong! He must be damned!

But remember, everything is still awesome!

I think it`s just come down to what`s the most efficient way to do things. Up until AUJ, the system was that Shore kept scoring the footage he got, and revised according to the revisions he was sent. But with DoS, Shore was halfway across the world, and PJ and co just deemed it more efficient to record as much music as possible in a set time period, and then just deal with it later in the process. This obviously hurts the picture, but it means the score is one less thing PJ has to worry about as he gets closer to the deadline.

And I think Shore at this point is kind of tired of the Middle-Earth film-making process, and probably prefers to get it done in one go and leave it to the hands of the orchestra. I might even dare say he`s a bit eager to be finished with this franchise and move on to other things. This process has taken its toll on him, so it`s hard not to imagine more than a little fatigue on his part.

Regardless, as long as he continues to provide such great music, colour me satisfied.

That's an odd reasoning. When the score is done recording, and Jackson doesn't even have a final cut yet, he surely will have to worry about conforming the music at some point? And when it can't be re-recorded, he's basically just shifting the problem from the shoulders of the composer to the shoulders of the editor(s). Someone has to worry, and the film still suffers.

Also, does Shore write everything in one go because he's across the world, or is he across the world because he was asked to write everything in one go? Big difference.

Do we know anything definite about this post production process Georg? To an extent that we can really say either way for certain how the system works?

We don't know 100%, but we can take educated guesses. When Conrad Pope, the actual "hands on" person in NZ, says his journey in MIddle-Earth is over, can't we assume the rest is in the hands of editors?

I mean, if the result in DoS is the result of PJ being able to record new music, but choosing edits instead, his musical sensibilities are beyond atrocious. In which case, the PJ on LotR must have been a completely different person.

I don't see the point in complaining about how bad TBOTFA might be before we've ever heard a note or seen the film. Why put out negative energy into the world instead of of positive?

If PJ does butcher it in the final cut, I'll be the first to complain about it, for sure! But why the preemptive negativity? What does it accomplish?

I'm not saying BOFA will be bad, I'm saying there is no reason to expect the music will be treated any differently than in DoS.

[KK 3,307]

It was a different time then. PJ also followed more traditional approaches at the time. His priorities have changed, he has new ways of doing things that he`s got accustomed to. Happens to most directors.

[Jay 37,374]

I wish the PJ who made FOTR was still with us making these new films. They'd be way better.

[gkgyver 1,645]

That may all be fine, but what I absolutely don't understand is why the soundtrack is locked at this point, even though we know very well that the film is far from locked. What made LotR so special was that the music was constantly conformed to picture, until the very last minute, and not cut to fit the picture. It may be that AUJ had a problematic post-production schedule because of the new film-split, and it may be that they did not want to put Shore through the same stress. However, there is a difference between scoring until the last second, and finishing recording 2 months before the premiere.

There is no question that the stop and go music editing on DoS is a result of PJ not being OK with the effect the music has on the film at that moment. So, why doesn't he simply let Shore rescore it? For example, I can totally understand why Jackson decided to silence the part when Bilbo fights the insect over the ring. It's too bombastic for the intimate moment. But then, by god, why not have it rescored? Does Jackson honestly think it's better for the film to have silence instead? The point is, they are neglecting a crucial element of the composer-director relationship in that phase.

I applaud the decision to have Shore away from all the mayhem, and have him in his sanctuary, writing music in peace, and I appreciate that we have almost his entire initial vision on CD, but to then cut him out of the final stretches of the process seriously impacts the film in a negative way. Then we may have tons of alternates in the film, but I'd rather have that, than sitting in the theatre and constantly being taken out of the film because the music is sliced and diced at random.

If Jackson really had these instincts with music, that he preferes silence instead of rescoring, we would have had similar results in LotR. But those films had terrific music, and terrific sensibility for music. What would be another explanation for the musical difference between these films, if not the one mentioned above?

Even AUJ didn't have that. It had a good amount of tracking, but the stop-and-go editing of these scores started to take place when they restructured the entire process on DoS.

The director and producers are still the last word on how the music is used, for good or for evil. Dialling out Shore's music or not demanding rewrites is basically their call. Personally I think PJ made some odd choices for DoS.

As Barnald says we don't know about BOFA yet. Could be that it suffers from the same fate, could be that it doesn't.

That's the point, it's the director's and producers' call, and it's a bad call.

Do you think it's coincidence that DoS yields such a result, when they followed another scoring process? I don't think BOFA will be that different. Why should it?

Because of hindsight. I think it's quite apparent that the general populus hasn't been too impressed with the music in DOS. They've clearly tried to improve things in DOS based on AUJ, like reducing use of LOTR themes, reducing Radagast's silliness etc. I imagine the same will happen with BOTFA.

The populus complained about the music edit. The music itself was great.

[KK 3,307]

I wish the PJ who made FOTR was still with us making these new films. They'd be way better.

Indeed. We need the PJ who had no certainty of success, who had a restrained budget and made the most of what old-school film-making had to offer!

[Jay 37,374]

We need the PJ who had no certainty of success, who had a restrained budget and made the most of what old-school film-making had to offer!

Well said!

[Faleel 5,360]

That may all be fine, but what I absolutely don't understand is why the soundtrack is locked at this point, even though we know very well that the film is far from locked. What made LotR so special was that the music was constantly conformed to picture, until the very last minute, and not cut to fit the picture. It may be that AUJ had a problematic post-production schedule because of the new film-split, and it may be that they did not want to put Shore through the same stress. However, there is a difference between scoring until the last second, and finishing recording 2 months before the premiere.

There is no question that the stop and go music editing on DoS is a result of PJ not being OK with the effect the music has on the film at that moment. So, why doesn't he simply let Shore rescore it? For example, I can totally understand why Jackson decided to silence the part when Bilbo fights the insect over the ring. It's too bombastic for the intimate moment. But then, by god, why not have it rescored? Does Jackson honestly think it's better for the film to have silence instead? The point is, they are neglecting a crucial element of the composer-director relationship in that phase.

I applaud the decision to have Shore away from all the mayhem, and have him in his sanctuary, writing music in peace, and I appreciate that we have almost his entire initial vision on CD, but to then cut him out of the final stretches of the process seriously impacts the film in a negative way. Then we may have tons of alternates in the film, but I'd rather have that, than sitting in the theatre and constantly being taken out of the film because the music is sliced and diced at random.

If Jackson really had these instincts with music, that he preferes silence instead of rescoring, we would have had similar results in LotR. But those films had terrific music, and terrific sensibility for music. What would be another explanation for the musical difference between these films, if not the one mentioned above?

Even AUJ didn't have that. It had a good amount of tracking, but the stop-and-go editing of these scores started to take place when they restructured the entire process on DoS.

The director and producers are still the last word on how the music is used, for good or for evil. Dialling out Shore's music or not demanding rewrites is basically their call. Personally I think PJ made some odd choices for DoS.

As Barnald says we don't know about BOFA yet. Could be that it suffers from the same fate, could be that it doesn't.

That's the point, it's the director's and producers' call, and it's a bad call.

Do you think it's coincidence that DoS yields such a result, when they followed another scoring process? I don't think BOFA will be that different. Why should it?

Because of hindsight. I think it's quite apparent that the general populus hasn't been too impressed with the music in DOS. They've clearly tried to improve things in DOS based on AUJ, like reducing use of LOTR themes, reducing Radagast's silliness etc. I imagine the same will happen with BOTFA.

The populus complained about the music edit. The music itself was great.

Actually I have seen people laud it!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Kühni 485]

.

[KK 3,307]

Well it`s more because of this really. The conditions were just right!

Indeed. We need the PJ who had no certainty of success, who had a restrained budget and made the most of what old-school film-making had to offer!

[Jay 37,374]

Yep.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[gkgyver 1,645]

I wish the PJ who made FOTR was still with us making these new films. They'd be way better.

If The Hobbit was his first major film and was made 10 years ago you probably would have gotten that. The LOTR trilogy made afterwards and now would have the same CGI fake ness and too many throwbacks to Hobbit complaints.

By the way, last year Doug was quick to reply to tweets asking about Shore's involved in I See Fire. This year he's yet to reply. Could this mean anything...? Probably not, but oh well.

15 years ago, New Line and Co. would have never greenlit three movies for a 300 pages children's novel.

[Faleel 5,360]

"There's 1 book, why three movies?"

[Alex Shore 83]

I think that BOTFA will have tons of temptracked LOTR music... (Helms Deep...Pelennor... etc...)

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[gkgyver 1,645]

"There's 1 book, why three movies?"

"Because it's awesome!"

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,360]

Um... Isn't the There and Back again text out of alignment with the The Hobbit Logo?

[Incanus 5,716]

Just seeing those soundtrack covers makes me giddy. I hope the Special Edition is extra special this time around.

Amazon UK has release date of 8th of December for both editions:

Regular

Special

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Barnald 365]

Regarding PJ's discipline and the editing process, I am somewhat hopeful on account of the revised process for DoS, where both the TC and EE were scored as part of the same recording block, therefore suggesting he had pretty much locked the edits of both cuts at a relatively early stage. Now obviously I can't vouch for PJ deciding silence or SFX works better when he's watching it in November with a week or so to go until the premiere, or - gulp - tracking something else instead. We'll just have to hope for the best*

* (Braces self for all manners of LOTR quotes involving 'hope')

[Bilbo 3,709]

Just seeing those soundtrack covers makes me giddy. I hope the Special Edition is extra special this time around.

Amazon UK has release date of 8th of December for both editions:

Regular

Special

I already said that!

[Incanus 5,716]

Just seeing those soundtrack covers makes me giddy. I hope the Special Edition is extra special this time around.

Amazon UK has release date of 8th of December for both editions:

Regular

Special

I already said that!

We'll let's just say I reiterated it so it won't be forgotten!

[Bilbo 3,709]

Just seeing those soundtrack covers makes me giddy. I hope the Special Edition is extra special this time around.

Amazon UK has release date of 8th of December for both editions:

Regular

Special

I already said that!

We'll let's just say I reiterated it so it won't be forgotten!

Damn your compromises!

[Incanus 5,716]

Go back to the shadows! The power of Gandalf compels thee!

[Bilbo 3,709]

Like the new avatar!

[Incanus 5,716]

Yeah I finally found a little more colorful background for the movie Gandalf who seems always to be depicted grey in the grey backdrop in most posters.

[KK 3,307]

Regarding PJ's discipline and the editing process, I am somewhat hopeful on account of the revised process for DoS, where both the TC and EE were scored as part of the same recording block, therefore suggesting he had pretty much locked the edits of both cuts at a relatively early stage.

They weren't. Which is why for some scenes, they were recording blindly. And then PJ cut and restitched the music accordingly in the film.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Barnald 365]

Regarding PJ's discipline and the editing process, I am somewhat hopeful on account of the revised process for DoS, where both the TC and EE were scored as part of the same recording block, therefore suggesting he had pretty much locked the edits of both cuts at a relatively early stage.

They weren't. Which is why for some scenes, they were recording blindly. And then PJ cut and restitched the music accordingly in the film.

Which scenes are you talking about? The bits with Smaug near the end?

[gkgyver 1,645]

Regarding PJ's discipline and the editing process, I am somewhat hopeful on account of the revised process for DoS, where both the TC and EE were scored as part of the same recording block, therefore suggesting he had pretty much locked the edits of both cuts at a relatively early stage.

They weren't. Which is why for some scenes, they were recording blindly. And then PJ cut and restitched the music accordingly in the film.

Which scenes are you talking about? The bits with Smaug near the end?

Some of the High Fells as well, and the extended Dol Guldur scenes. PJ split the music as he saw fit.