Do Johnny's OSTs make for better listening?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I think 15 or 20 years from now the whole "complete and chronological" thing will be seen as a bit of a fad.

People will return to the original album presentations.

It's not going to take that long to run out of scores to complete and chronologize, and then the niche labels will fade. The market will move on.

But some expanded releases over the years were missed opportunities and could be covered again.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I've never listened to an OST again once the expanded version comes out

What the fuck? What about Jaws or E.T., which have tracks that aren't on the expanded versions?

[Romão 2,274]

It's not so much about what he left out, but what he put in. The albuns flow very well

Exactly. I don't care if there's an unreleased Beethoven symphony left out of the soundtrack. What matters is only what the existing album sounds like, and how it flows. Williams' album arrangements have NEVER disappointed in that area, and that's a pretty good track record.

Oh come on. The Catch Me If You Can OST is terrible with the random existing source songs Williams had nothing to do with wedged in between the score tracks, for one example.

The man's scores over 100 films; not every OST is a perfect masterpiece of sequencing .

AI is a good example of a bad album presentation, for many reasons. But when it comes to source songs wedged between score tracks, I'm sure JW does not have the only say in the matter

More of a motif than a proper theme, but yeah it's all over this scene if you don't remember:

It's a great little theme, no doubt. But its exclution from the OST does not mean the album is not good

[A24 4,333]

I generally don't like ost presentations.

I want the complete score and I choose what I will listen to and what not.

i don't like others to make the decisions for me, even if it's the composer.

That's like saying I don't want painters to tell me what to look at.

Even when he put the end credits in the middle of the album on SpaceCamp and Jurassic Park?

What's your point? Does every decision an artist makes have to be perfect? Is Schindler's List a bad movie because of the girl with the red coat?

The man's scores over 100 films; not every OST is a perfect masterpiece of sequencing .

Ah, so you do realize that. Just because there are a few flaws here and there doesn't mean Williams is a bad producer who shouldn't be involved in the presentation of his own albums.

[Amer 2,109]

I like this thread. because I was just thinking along the same lines that OST albums are actually not bad. They are basically a souvenir of the film that you have experienced recently and you basically listen to the music to relive the cinematic experience in your mind. The OST actually becomes your link to the film (I'm assuming that ideally the best way to enjoy the music apart from the film is after the fact that you have watched the movie) Although some folks would prefer to listen to their cd before watching the film these day knowing what is expected from their favourite composer.A good example would be any new cd by John Williams but you watch the movie later anyway's too.

We buy the cd, listen to it over number of times till we become familiar with it and keep going back to it over a number times in any random number of tracks or preferences. At the same time you may revisit the movie becoming a fan and the discovering the unreleased amount of music and as well as that the versions used on the cd do not even conform to the film itself. Its an interesting clinical effect as we develop a severe liking of the unreleased music. I mean take good look at such albums from its hey days like Jaws, Superman, Raiders, E.T. Star Wars saga. And how these were represented. We fell in love with them of course but we wanted more. decades later we have almost everything from their original sources, expanded, including all the unreleased alternates we never knew existed.

BUT I still cannot ignore the fact that given the limited means of its time and standards these OST managed to give us a great listening experience. These albums were half their expanded strength as we know them today but they were concise, fairly representative of the larger material and helped re-live that movie experience. Not to mention those specially composed 'Theme' versions made exclusively for the OST album or in some cases a full re-recording. John Williams and his team prepared wonderfully packaged albums that had proper thematic book ends and inspite of lack of any chronology they felt best to represent the OST in a listen-able manner.

Listening to a fully expanded or complete score is a different, time consuming and en-richening experience.You cant go wrong with that. Today I barely find time to get through a full 2cd or 3cd set in one go. Its difficult. I know I have the whole music.But I will perhaps stick to my favourite sections of the set while skipping the other tracks. Put a 35-40 minute cd from yesteryears and it will put smile on me. Even from a nostalgic perspective. While I have expanded sets of my favourite scores I made a point of seeking their original OST album versions. Only recently I was able to acquire the full SUPERMAN OST Soundtrack with 16 tracks because it represented the full 2 LP set (Williams original configuration) and also the original RAIDERS cd. (Yes much after the expanded sets)

I remember getting the 2 cd set of Jerry Goldsmith's INCHON set because I had not seen the movie (Since I'm a fan and a completest too) I went straight to the LP representation. The LP program allowed me to be familiar with the composers original representation and I got into it. Same thing with JUDGE DREDD 2cd set.

So I'm always happy when an expanded set carries the Original program presentation on disc 2. From there onwards its always a journey of discovery and bewilderment that I enjoy between the two presentations. I really enjoy listening to THE WIND AND THE LION on disc 2 because its the OST and it has better remastering. When I want to get the need to listen and relive the full experience I will play the Disc 1 or just the unreleased highlights. Same for POLTERGEIST or HOOK. Its actually semantics and different listening behaviours which varys from person to person.

Some John Williams OST albums like TEMPLE OF DOOM and RETURN OF THE JEDI are not an ideal representation of the film score contrary to what our friend Thor would say but I still enjoy their presentation from a nostalgic point of view.

Nowadays the scenarios are different, new films get pretty much 75 minute albums for a start. you barely get familiar with them that the special edition deluxe 3 cd set comes out. Barely registering on my comfort level. So what Im saying I need the OST to let me breath it. Let it absorb before I seek it as an expansion. A good point though is Elfman's ALICE IN WONDERLAND. By the time I bought the cd the expanded score was out in the mammoth Burton-Elfman box set. I bought that too but its another story.

[crocodile 8,012]

Let me put it this way.,. The way he arranges music on his albums works as a listening experience. It generally flows nicely from one idea into another and works as a standalone thing. But the full score isn't often best served by this approach, given that some more interesting material is being left out.

Plus, his full scores don't flow as nicely as, say, Jerry Goldsmith's.

Karol

[Incanus 5,714]

Some of Williams' OSTs work well, are rather nice,

sometimes complete scores alone will me suffice.

Narrative can on the OST be jumbled mess

sometimes one can enjoy things when one hears less

I can't find no hard or fast rule here,

whether to choose C&C or OST I fear.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Let me put it this way.,. The way he arranges music on his albums works as a listening experience. It generally flows nicely from one idea into another and works as a standalone thing. But the full score isn't often best served by this approach, given that some more interesting material is being left out.

Plus, his full scores don't flow as nicely as, say, Jerry Goldsmith's.

Karol

Because of Williams odd need for "setpieces", while Jerry eschews those and favors a more thematically unified approach.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I prefer Jerry's Explorers OST over Intrada's expanded CD.

[Bespin 8,482]

To be honest, what I always prefered the most on JW OST are the concert suites.

I'm glad that he continues to includes them on his albums!

Talking about suites, do you realize the last time JW revisited his own film works on CD was in 1997... on Hollywood Sound and Cinema Serenade.

Time passes!

[Incanus 5,714]

Williams' re-recordings of his own film works sadly stopped pretty much when he left the Boston Pops.

There are now dozen scores from the 2000's that could use some concert suites recorded for a compilation. E.g. Irina's Theme and Marion's Theme (reworked after Indy IV) in their concert guise would be wonderful to have on album as thusfar they have appeared only in concerts.

[crocodile 8,012]

I prefer Jerry's Explorers OST over Intrada's expanded CD.

There are exceptions.

Karol

[Incanus 5,714]

To be honest, what I always prefered the most on JW OST are the concert suites.

I'm glad that he continues to includes them on his albums!

Talking about suites, do you realize the last time JW revisited his own film works on CD was in 1997... on Hollywood Sound and Cinema Serenade.

Time passes!

Ah one exception is the Suite for Cello and Orchestra from Memoirs of A Geisha recorded by Chicago Symphony Orchestra with Williams and Yo-Yo Ma. Majority of recordings Williams has done outside his films have been for his concert works.

[Bespin 8,482]

To be honest, what I always prefered the most on JW OST are the concert suites.

I'm glad that he continues to includes them on his albums!

Talking about suites, do you realize the last time JW revisited his own film works on CD was in 1997... on Hollywood Sound and Cinema Serenade.

Time passes!

Ah one exception is the Suite for Cello and Orchestra from Memoirs of A Geisha recorded by Chicago Symphony Orchestra with Williams and Yo-Yo Ma. Majority of recordings Williams has done outside his films have been for his concert works.

Right, but it's a live recording, 2008, then it was putted on some compilations. JW rerecorded Angela's Ashes in 2000 with Frank McCourt too. It's available on the BSO website.

[Incanus 5,714]

To be honest, what I always prefered the most on JW OST are the concert suites.

I'm glad that he continues to includes them on his albums!

Talking about suites, do you realize the last time JW revisited his own film works on CD was in 1997... on Hollywood Sound and Cinema Serenade.

Time passes!

Ah one exception is the Suite for Cello and Orchestra from Memoirs of A Geisha recorded by Chicago Symphony Orchestra with Williams and Yo-Yo Ma. Majority of recordings Williams has done outside his films have been for his concert works.

Right, but it's a live recording, 2008, then it was putted on some compilations. JW rerecorded Angela's Ashes in 2000 with Frank McCourt too. It's available on the BSO website.

Considering how much music is now recorded live I think it counts unless you want to be strict and only include "studio recordings".

[Thor 7,504]

I think 15 or 20 years from now the whole "complete and chronological" thing will be seen as a bit of a fad.

People will return to the original album presentations.

I doubt it, but hope so!

It's not so much about what he left out, but what he put in. The albuns flow very well

Exactly. I don't care if there's an unreleased Beethoven symphony left out of the soundtrack. What matters is only what the existing album sounds like, and how it flows. Williams' album arrangements have NEVER disappointed in that area, and that's a pretty good track record.

Oh come on. The Catch Me If You Can OST is terrible with the random existing source songs Williams had nothing to do with wedged in between the score tracks, for one example.

The man's scores over 100 films; not every OST is a perfect masterpiece of sequencing .

Maybe not all are 'masterpieces', but every OST I have (and that is all) are incredibly well-tailored and arranged as listening experiences. Not a bad apple in the bunch. I think Williams is the only composer in my collection that I can say that about. He's just a genius album producer.

The mix with songs is a different issue altogether. I'm not sure about Williams' extent of involvement in that, but for the most part that works great too, including CATCH ME IF YOU CAN. There are a couple of somewhat strange examples, though, like JFK -- whose eclecticism is a bit all over the place, but which nonetheless is an entertaining listen.

[filmmusic 1,829]

I strongly believe that osts are for the general public who doesn't have the patience to listen to a film score as a whole and follow with its overall structure!

Because there IS a structure in a film score. (at least in the ones of good composers* that is)

That's why we have ost presentations with -many times- catchy arrangements of the themes for the public.

(the same way we have releases with "best of" for singers and groups)

When I buy a film sountrack, I want to hear the music from the film, not music inspired by the film, or highlights from the films, the same way I'd prefer the complete Mozart's Requiem or the complete Beethoven's 9th symphony than cd releases with highlights from Requiem or highlights from 9th symphony.

*I want to stress good composers, because not all complete scores are a good listening experience and can become very repetitive and boring.

[Jay 37,364]

Ah, so you do realize that. Just because there are a few flaws here and there doesn't mean Williams is a bad producer who shouldn't be involved in the presentation of his own albums.

I never once suggested he was. Are you confusing my posts with someone else's?

My take on the matter was:

My answer is "it depends".

Some of the OST programs Williams assembled are great summations of their score, with great musical flow and nothing "essential" missing from all he wrote for the score.

Some are not, missing important highlights or putting climactic pieces earlier than they should be heard.

So yea, it depends.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Ah, so you do realize that. Just because there are a few flaws here and there doesn't mean Williams is a bad producer who shouldn't be involved in the presentation of his own albums.

I never once suggested he was. Are you confusing my posts with someone else's?

When in doubt, blame the buggy quote function.

[Romão 2,274]

And OST can be a fantastic album and still be missing incredible music from the full score. The two are not mutually exclusive

[crocodile 8,012]

And OST can be a fantastic album and still be missing incredible music from the full score. The two are not mutually exclusive

I always liked the A.I. album. It's a really unique eclectic Kubrick-like tone poem presentation. But it has nothing to do with the film score as such.

And no, I don't count songs. One is bad enough, two... now that's a crime.

Karol

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

And OST can be a fantastic album and still be missing incredible music from the full score. The two are not mutually exclusive

Thank you!

[Thor 7,504]

And OST can be a fantastic album and still be missing incredible music from the full score. The two are not mutually exclusive

I always liked the A.I. album. It's a really unique eclectic Kubrick-like tone poem presentation. But it has nothing to do with the film score as such.

And no, I don't count songs. One is bad enough, two... now that's a crime.

Karol

Agreed. A.I. is a fantastic album!

[Incanus 5,714]

And OST can be a fantastic album and still be missing incredible music from the full score. The two are not mutually exclusive

I always liked the A.I. album. It's a really unique eclectic Kubrick-like tone poem presentation. But it has nothing to do with the film score as such.

And no, I don't count songs. One is bad enough, two... now that's a crime.

Karol

Agreed. A.I. is a fantastic album!

It is a rather horrible album actually.

[crocodile 8,012]

But... why?

Karol

[Incanus 5,714]

The Fury has a great OST, Eiger Sanction has a great OST, E.T. has a great OST but A.I. OST is a jumbled hodge podge of great individual pieces that never gel into a truly satisfying listening experience.

[crocodile 8,012]

Yeah. But, as I said, it seems to be an homage to Kubrick in that sense.

Karol

[Incanus 5,714]

I think it is also different format for different times for me. Sometimes "the highlight reel" is something you want to (or have time to) experience for a quick fix but sometimes it is great to sit down and take in the full score with all its nuances and the narrative arc.

[Jay 37,364]

I strongly believe that osts are for the general public who doesn't have the patience to listen to a film score as a whole and follow with its overall structure!

Because there IS a structure in a film score. (at least in the ones of good composers* that is)

That's why we have ost presentations with -many times- catchy arrangements of the themes for the public.

(the same way we have releases with "best of" for singers and groups)

When I buy a film sountrack, I want to hear the music from the film, not music inspired by the film, or highlights from the films, the same way I'd prefer the complete Mozart's Requiem or the complete Beethoven's 9th symphony than cd releases with highlights from Requiem or highlights from 9th symphony.

*I want to stress good composers, because not all complete scores are a good listening experience and can become very repetitive and boring.

This is how I feel!

Ultimately, I feel that every composer should get to arrange the album of a film's score him or herself, at the length he feels is best, in whatever configuration he or she chooses. But that ALSO, and not released until a little ways down the road, the COMPLETE score should be available to the public as well. And that both should remain in print forever, so the consumer always has a choice. Win win!

[Bespin 8,482]

Considering how much music is now recorded live I think it counts unless you want to be strict and only include "studio recordings".

These recordings appears in my disco at least! But someone should really release of one those live concerts on CD... Oh I get an idea for a new thread...

[A24 4,333]

I never once suggested he was.

Yes, you did, but I don't think you realized it. If you question someone's statement then you are suggesting that you don't agree with him.

If you said, I agree, Williams is a good producer but there are few exceptions like Spacecamp, then your position on this would be more clear.

[Jay 37,364]

You're wrong.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Although I created this topic with scores in mind (and with John Williams as the focal point), there are some song compilations that have been near and dear to me since childhood, including Ghostbusters, Back to the Future and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

Each of these releases contained a small but fulfilling dose of their scores, as well as songs tailored to the films that were a part of their identity as much as their scores were.

I can't think of any other song albums for films that have done that so effectively.

[Jay 37,364]

I'd love a definitive Back To The Future 2CD set that has all the score, all the alternates, AND all the songs (including the ones in the film that weren't on the OST).

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

You can assemble that yourself with ease

[Jay 37,364]

I know.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Good!

[filmmusic 1,829]

Ultimately, I feel that every composer should get to arrange the album of a film's score him or herself, at the length he feels is best, in whatever configuration he or she chooses. But that ALSO, and not released until a little ways down the road, the COMPLETE score should be available to the public as well. And that both should remain in print forever, so the consumer always has a choice. Win win!

Or they could be released at the same time.

One release with the album presentation

One release with the complete score

One release with both included.

I have a hunch, that the last one would make the highest sales.

[Jay 37,364]

Film music doesn't really sell. The big labels do it out of courtesy. The specialty labels do it out of love.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Ultimately, I feel that every composer should get to arrange the album of a film's score him or herself, at the length he feels is best, in whatever configuration he or she chooses. But that ALSO, and not released until a little ways down the road, the COMPLETE score should be available to the public as well. And that both should remain in print forever, so the consumer always has a choice. Win win!

Or they could be released at the same time.

One release with the album presentation

One release with the complete score

One release with both included.

I have a hunch, that the last one would make the highest sales.

I actually think the last one would the one with the lowest sales.

The first one would be the one with the highest sales.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yet Lukas Kendall lives in a mansion with 50 rooms and 2000 acres of land!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

But isn't he part of the film music mafia?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

But isn't he part of the film music mafia?

Thaxton?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

He sleeps with the fishes!

[Bespin 8,482]

Well sometimes an OST is certified, JW has a couple... and I predict The Force Awakens will become, at least, Gold very quickly!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

A depressing sign of the times that it hasn't been already.

[Bespin 8,482]

Here are the current JW certifications: http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=24803&p=1047049

[King Mark 3,631]

Forgot to add: If some tracks are not added properly to the expanded release (like in E.T. or Jaws), I add them manually in my itunes album

Also sometimes I prefer to use a track from the OST in the expanded release :Adventures on Earth, Farewell Neverland...

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

That extra minute or so in E.T.'s Halloween, the extended Out to Sea, the perfect re-sequencing of The Walls Converge, The Emperor with additional chorus/synth effects...I do love a great John Williams OST.