The Return Of The King COMPLETE RECORDINGS 4CD set

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

it is not used enough.

Indeed!

Did Shore intend to use Nature's Reclamation for the scenes with the Rohirrim, when he composed it for FOTR?

Very unlikely, I'm damn sure the (rather succesfull) tracking of the theme in Theoden's big scene in TTT led to it's shifting focus.

But think of it this way, if it was not used for the Rohan in ROTK, the theme would probably not have been in that film at all.

[Morlock 11]

Indeed. It's probably my favorite theme from LoTR.

[gkgyver 1,645]

I can't accept the rather simplistic and unfounded opinion that the Reclamation theme in that scene is "misplaced". First of all, if Howard Shore really gave the theme a new meaning after TTT, it shouldn't be played during the Amon Hen battle, when Merry and Pippin sacrifice themselves to save Frodo. One could argue whether Shore sometimes slipped the complete control over all 10 hours plus of music, but that he lost control within one film (and the first one!) borders on the impossible.

There's a difference between logical explanation and a "reach"; and what Doug and me said is anything but a "reach", if you consider the other, far more detailed, developments in the music.

And even if the music in the Rohan scene doesn't make 100% sense, it still makes some sense, and to me it seems rather picky to take apart this one minute of music when there are still 10 hours left that make perfect sense.

The sad thing is, Doug could say it was used intentionally and with perfect sense, Howard Shore could explain its sense, and there would still be some grumpy anoraks who for some reason find it impossible that a concept can be made that has to wait three years to fully unfold.

After all, Williams couldn't do that, so why should anyone else be able to pull it off, right?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

There is a hint of the Nature's Reclamation Theme in the scene were we first see Helm's Deep, so who knows.

[Morlock 11]

I can't accept the rather simplistic and unfounded opinion that the Reclamation theme in that scene is "misplaced". First of all, if Howard Shore really gave the theme a new meaning after TTT, it shouldn't be played during the Amon Hen battle, when Merry and Pippin sacrifice themselves to save Frodo. One could argue whether Shore sometimes slipped the complete control over all 10 hours plus of music, but that he lost control within one film (and the first one!) borders on the impossible.

There's a difference between logical explanation and a "reach"; and what Doug and me said is anything but a "reach", if you consider the other, far more detailed, developments in the music.

And even if the music in the Rohan scene doesn't make 100% sense, it still makes some sense, and to me it seems rather picky to take apart this one minute of music when there are still 10 hours left that make perfect sense.

The sad thing is, Doug could say it was used intentionally and with perfect sense, Howard Shore could explain its sense, and there would still be some grumpy anoraks who for some reason find it impossible that a concept can be made that has to wait three years to fully unfold.

After all, Williams couldn't do that, so why should anyone else be able to pull it off, right?

The bottom line for me is-when watching it, I think WTF is that doing in there?

It is possible to make sense of many things in this world, that don't make 'em nice or appropriate. It took me out of the movie for a couple of seconds, and, in my book, that's a failing of the score. Not talking absolutes here- I personally don't buy it. An idea that was so beautiful for nature, used in a more mundane, generally heoic context.

And I AM being picky. We have 44 pages in this thread about the scores, and this is far from the only thread it's been discussed in. We are here to discuss, not to come to all-encompassing solutions. I don't see the value in NOT being picky. Gives me a realistic view of something I love, and makes me appreciate it more so than a blanket 'it's so great, any imperfections are not worthy of being discussed' approach would.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I think the reason Nature's Reclamation became a Last Stand theme is simply because the director requested it for the end of TTT and possibly the big charge onto the Pelennor Fields in RotK.

Doesn't it also reappear when the Eagles arrive at the Black Gate?

[gkgyver 1,645]

There is a hint of the Nature's Reclamation Theme in the scene were we first see Helm's Deep, so who knows.

That's one of Eowyn's themes.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I agree with Marc. It was most likely some director's meddling that work out very well.

[Henry B 50]

The bottom line for me is-when watching it, I think WTF is that doing in there?

It is possible to make sense of many things in this world, that don't make 'em nice or appropriate. It took me out of the movie for a couple of seconds, and, in my book, that's a failing of the score. Not talking absolutes here- I personally don't buy it. An idea that was so beautiful for nature, used in a more mundane, generally heoic context.

Yeah, I felt a slightly manic edge in the music as it inexplicably blasted the nature theme. It sounded really great, but something was not quite right.

[Richard Penna 3,690]

I don't think anything's wrong with it being used in all these situations - it's a great theme. I've always seen it has a nature/rescuing kind of thing, and to me there isn't any place in the movie where it seems out of place.

[gkgyver 1,645]

I'm sorry, but when you watch all scenes with the theme, how can you not see the connection (and I mean all scenes where the music was intended there, Helm's Deep doesn't count)?

The parallels between Amon Hen, March of the Ents and Pelennor fields alone are enough to justify its use.

Shore started working one year before Fellowship was released. He saw the footage from the films, studied Tolkien's books and surrounding mythologies, had LotR on his mind for four years, how can you possibly think he would have taken even the slightest chance that one of the most iconic scenes in the whole LotR universe doesn't make musical sense?

That is beyond unlikely.

Of course it makes sense, and unless I hear it from Shore's own mouth or read it from some reliable source, nothing is good enough a "theory" to convince me otherwise.

[Henry B 50]

I'm not really debating the correctness of the theme. It's (if by a long shot) justifiable. It just felt wrong to me, personally.

[Morlock 11]

Beyond unlikely? You overrate a composer's control on the music. Even in the most harmonious collaborations (as this one), if a director likes a certain theme and thinks it should go somewhere beyond what the composer intended, than that theme is going there.

And it is possible to find a connection between anything. Shore could have used the Shire theme to score all 11 hours of the piece and it could be conceptually sound. But, to me, that (great) felt out of place at times, and cheapened by it's rather 'traditional' use, when it had a far more powerful and unique affect on me previously.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

I agree with Marc. It was most likely some director's meddling that work out very well.

Heck that's what i said many posts before him...

Doesn't it also reappear when the Eagles arrive at the Black Gate?

Of course since it reprises moth/eagle connection from FOTR.

After all, Williams couldn't do that, so why should anyone else be able to pull it off, right?

Since you include the maestro in this discussion, a 'despicable' thing in other threads... :rolleyes:I'll comment one thing: The usage of Leia's theme in Ben's Death and Yoda's theme in Bespin, and even the force theme in Binary Sunset is purely aesthetical, and a nice example to explain why its possible the nature theme may have been used for those scenes.

[Red 75]

How many themes does Lord of the Rings have?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Around 80.

[gkgyver 1,645]

The usage of Leia's theme in Ben's Death and Yoda's theme in Bespin, and even the force theme in Binary Sunset is purely aesthetical, and a nice example to explain why its possible the nature theme may have been used for those scenes.

The difference is that the Reclamation theme actually makes sense, even if some don't see it.

[Morlock 11]

Which is another way of saying it doesn't make sense, even if some insist on seeing it.

[indy4 155]

Who knows, maybe in the ROTK liner notes they say he used the nature theme with the rohirrim because it had the most musical impact, and is not a thematic usage at all...

I think that was it. In the end you're really caring about what will have the biggest impact on the audience, and having Rohan's theme then wouldn't work as well as Reclamation.

It's just like having Leia's theme during Ben's death. It doesn't make sense, but it sounds brilliant.

EDIT: Dang it, you beat me to that last point, Luke!

[dvader234 0]

Who knows, maybe in the ROTK liner notes they say he used the nature theme with the rohirrim because it had the most musical impact, and is not a thematic usage at all...

I think that was it. In the end you're really caring about what will have the biggest impact on the audience, and having Rohan's theme then wouldn't work as well as Reclamation.

It's just like having Leia's theme during Ben's death. It doesn't make sense, but it sounds brilliant.

EDIT: Dang it, you beat me to that last point, Luke!

Actually, I forget where I read it exactly, but the reason John Williams put Leia's theme at the point of Obi-Wan's death is because her message was responsible for him having to face his former apprentice by leaving Tatooine. Pretty cool if you ask me. Also, if you listen carefully at the point where Leia inserts the plans into Artoo, you can hear a slight rendition of the Force Theme, since it is to Obi-Wan she is sending the plans.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Which is another way of saying it doesn't make sense, even if some insist on seeing it.

Then tell me in a logical way why there is no sense there, without using the term "I simply don't see it".

[Joe Brausam 214]

Off topic, but....

Something dawned on me while I was driving today. In the opening sequence where Smeagol is strangling and killing his brother to retrieve the ring from him we hear a pounding/pulsating bass drum line.

In Wagner's Das Rheingold when the two giant brothers are given the ring they begin to fight over it, eventually one overpowering the other and killing him. During this sequence this is a similar line played on the bass drum.

Considering that both The Lord of the Rings and Der Ring des Nibelungen are both based on the same legend, I was wondering if it were possible that Howard Shore meant this as a homage to Wagner? And if it were, does anyone think that there may have been other hints at The Ring Cycle in LOTR?

[indy4 155]

Shore originally intended for there to be Mordor's theme to be playing during that part, but it was cut in favor of that sound effect.

[Joe Brausam 214]

Even so...its a curiously suspicious choice.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Which is another way of saying it doesn't make sense, even if some insist on seeing it.

Exactly.

Something dawned on me while I was driving today. In the opening sequence where Smeagol is strangling and killing his brother to retrieve the ring from him we hear a pounding/pulsating bass drum line.

I'm not very lectured in LOTR, but i think that its Smeaol's friend not brother.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

No, it's his brother.

And the pulsating sound effect was introduced in Two Towers. It's part of the sound design, not something Howard Shore came up with.

You can hear the music that was written for that scene in track one of the original album.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

No, it's his brother.

I was right. I'm not very lectured in LOTR...

[Joe Brausam 214]

No, it's his brother.

And the pulsating sound effect was introduced in Two Towers. It's part of the sound design, not something Howard Shore came up with.

You can hear the music that was written for that scene in track one of the original album.

Ah alright. It just seemed really coincidental to me. I haven't seen the film in a while, so I just thought I remembered it being a bass drum.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

Actually, they're not (necessarily) brothers. They're never said to be related in LOTR, though a statement I found on Wikipedia puts it a bit into perspective:

They are popularly thought to be cousins, but Tolkien only calls them "friends" in The Lord of the Rings. In a later letter (The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, #214) he writes that they were "evidently relatives".

[John Crichton 4]

Actually, they're not (necessarily) brothers. They're never said to be related in LOTR, though a statement I found on Wikipedia puts it a bit into perspective:

They are popularly thought to be cousins, but Tolkien only calls them "friends" in The Lord of the Rings. In a later letter (The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, #214) he writes that they were "evidently relatives".

Yes, that's what I was going to say. Gandalf only calls them friends during the Council of Elrond or elsewhere. I've never heard of that letter, though.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Which is another way of saying it doesn't make sense, even if some insist on seeing it.

Exactly.

Again, unless you can provide proof and logical explanation, it's fair to assume Howard Shore and Doug Adams know this music infinitely better than all three of us.

[Morlock 11]

This is not a musical question, but a dramatic one. How it worked in the film. It took me out of the film. I'm not talking quatum physics here.

[John Crichton 4]

You might need to know some quantum physics to understand how some of these more obscure "themes" work.

[Red 75]

Indeed.

[gkgyver 1,645]

You may need to know some quantum physics to understand the minds of some posters here.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

You might need to know some quantum physics to understand how some of these more obscure "themes" work.

That's what makes them so interesting. Just like it makes Wagner's Ring a revelation even after years of listening to it.

[Morlock 11]

You may need to know some quantum physics to understand the minds of some posters here.

Come on, now- your posts aren't that impenetrable.

[gkgyver 1,645]

I had a feeling I left the door wide open ...

[indy4 155]

You may need to know some quantum physics to understand the minds of some posters here.

I'm going to be the optomistic one, and recieve this as a compliment.

indy4 - who has now idea why he just put a dancing smiley after his post

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Actually, they're not (necessarily) brothers. They're never said to be related in LOTR, though a statement I found on Wikipedia puts it a bit into perspective:

They are popularly thought to be cousins, but Tolkien only calls them "friends" in The Lord of the Rings. In a later letter (The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, #214) he writes that they were "evidently relatives".

Well i was right after all...from a certain point of view, since i have only read LOTR...

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

"Relatives" is a wide term anyway. Look at the Hobbits, they're all related in some way.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

So they are a bunch of hillbillies?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Frodo's ancestry comes from both the Tooks and the Brandybucks. So he's related to Peregrin and Meriadoc.

As you can see here:

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

I knew that. I thought he was refering to all the hobbits

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I'm sure that if you examine all of Tolkiens family trees, then this would be the case.

Though most Hobbiton folk would not admit to being related to a Brandybuck, them being half-foreigners and all!

[Red 75]

So they are a bunch of hillbillies?

Technically, they kinda' are. 'Course, their a lot less crazy and stupid.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

So they are a bunch of hillbillies?

Technically, they kinda' are. 'Course, their a lot less crazy and stupid.

I was thinking of interbreeding...

[Red 75]

I know, but there are more similarities, like them living in the far country and keeping to themselves.

[A24 4,335]

Lord Of The Rings? What is there to discuss?

[gkgyver 1,645]

For instance, why have some people still their heads up their asses when it gets to this subject?