The Return Of The King COMPLETE RECORDINGS 4CD set

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The sound quality of the first 2 releases and the OST release of ROTK have been stellar, so even as a hypothetical situation, your claim is absurd.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

That's why it was hypotetical....

What if Monsignor had been an LP rip and nobody had heard the samples to not get spoiled?

Heck i hate when i cannot make myself clear.

Why impose yourselves a restraint if you already have heard the music, and barely be spoiled with the exception of some unused parts and unedited cues?

This is a fine practice with new releases or if you want to listen the score first in the movie...but here i cant find a heavy reason to do that

But lets not make a disccusion on this (since it seems that you think i am critisizing). Lets say I just dont understand it.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

For me there is an incredibly huge difference between hearing the filmscore while watching the film, and actually listening to it on CD. Which is why I don't go for those DVD ripped scores everyone here is so mad about.

If there was a serious problem with the soundquality of Monsignor, then it would have long been adressed by people on FSM, MM or this board listening to the soundclips. And then perhaps I would do my own inspection of them.

Same with ROTK. if dozens of people start posting that there is some big problem, I might....might listen to soundclips.

Otherwise, I would rather bite of my right hand and learn to type with my left.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

And don't forget that there's supposed to be quite a bit of previously unheard music on this release. TTT already had a few eye openers (make no mistake...) in that vein.

[Ishum 0]

I'm so glad to see they included "Journey to the Grey Havens". The music in the clip is my favorite of the series.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Just a quick one: why shouldn't they include the Grey Havens?

[Ollie 1,059]

Yes, these are the complete recordings you know.

[Henry B 50]

Medley of "The Eagles," "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields," "For Frodo," and "Bilbo's Song" in good sound quality

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Strangely enough I'm not tempted even slightly.

[John Crichton 4]

It's getting easier.

[indy4 155]

Medley of "The Eagles," "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields," "For Frodo," and "Bilbo's Song" in good sound quality

That was amazing!!

[Joe Brausam 214]

Medley of "The Eagles," "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields," "For Frodo," and "Bilbo's Song" in good sound quality

I know we're so close to the release...but did anyone save that file as an mp3?

[gkgyver 1,645]

I sure did.

[Joe Brausam 214]

The let me ask this...how do i do it?! Do I need a program to do that? Or could you possibly send it.....

[gkgyver 1,645]

Check your PMs.

[Jacob 0]

Can I be the first to say me too?

[Joe Brausam 214]

So, just curious, but where exactly is Bilbo's song from? The fan club credits? I don't have the dvd with me, so I can't check. Regardless, its a nice piece!

[gkgyver 1,645]

Why do I feel a flood of PMs coming?

By all means, fire ahead.

[Joe Brausam 214]

Why do I feel a flood of PMs coming?

By all means, fire ahead.

I feel like I'm responsible for this now! Some of you folks can pm me too, to take some load off of him!

[Henry B 50]

So, just curious, but where exactly is Bilbo's song from? The fan club credits? I don't have the dvd with me, so I can't check. Regardless, its a nice piece!

Yes.

[gkgyver 1,645]

And according to Doug Adams, the final development of the Shire themes.

[Henry B 50]

I have to admit that I was hoping for one final, lush statement of the Hobbit theme to round out the song, something a la the end of "Many Meetings," but even more emotional.

[gkgyver 1,645]

But the song *is* Shire-ish. That's in fact yet one more thing to saviour about Shore's LotR; he doesn't revisit themes in old settings. He doesn't take a theme from B to C by revisiting A, like so many sequel scores do. He goes from A to B and from B to C.

A theme in an A- setting wouldn't make sense in RotK or TTT. Shore doesn't want the audience to have feelings of nostalgia, he wants them to see that something has changed and evolved.

There's no music in those films that's there just for the fun of it.

[Henry B 50]

Yeah, I know.

But still. =\

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Idiot!

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Medley of "The Eagles," "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields," "For Frodo," and "Bilbo's Song" in good sound quality

Nice! (contains EAGLES!, great!)

EDIT: eagles game me goosebumps

But the song *is* Shire-ish. That's in fact yet one more thing to saviour about Shore's LotR; he doesn't revisit themes in old settings. He doesn't take a theme from B to C by revisiting A, like so many sequel scores do. He goes from A to B and from B to C.A theme in an A- setting wouldn't make sense in RotK or TTT. Shore doesn't want the audience to have feelings of nostalgia, he wants them to see that something has changed and evolved.There's no music in those films that's there just for the fun of it.

The thing that i like in ROTK is that...it contains all the themes from the trilogy in one package...I dont understand what you want to express.There are themes from FOTR in ROTK. Do you mean he orchestrated-evolved them different? (that's one of the things i like too) But there are also FOTR versions...

[gkgyver 1,645]

Name one that plays like in FotR or TTT.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

When the hobbits return to The shire the 'concerning hobbits is played'. This is the one that cames first in my mind

The Rohirrim theme is played several times

When saruman dies his theme is played.

The nature reclamation is played in the same manner

I mean, those themes are more orchestrated than in FOTR and TTT where it seemed (in the movie) that the themes were always the same piece. But its orchestration, not a real evolution.

I would see theme evolution for example in the redition of the mordor theme when they see the witchking with his army leaving minas morgul.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

When the hobbits return to The shire the 'concerning hobbits is played'. This is the one that cames first in my mind

You are correct, it's arranged slightly differently, but pretty much the same. But I'm sure that was done on purpose.

The Rohirrim theme is played several times

True, but not really in the same way as in TTT.

When saruman dies his theme is played.

The nature reclamation is played in the same manner

I think what he ment was that while themes are (naturally) re-used, they are almost always written and performed differently, not just dumped in without any realy change.

They feel tailor-made for the scene, rather then feeling like tracked music.

I mean, those themes are more orchestrated than in FOTR and TTT where it seemed (in the movie) that the themes were always the same piece. But its orchestration, not a real evolution.

Some themes are resolved. The Fellowship Theme certainly is, as is the Gondor Theme and the Rivendell theme, and the Minas Tirith Theme etc...etc...

[Morlock 11]

When the so-called 'Nature' theme appeared in RoTK, for Theoden at Minas Tirith, it felt dropped in to me.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It appeared for Theoden before that, when they left Edoras.

By that time the "Nature's Reclamation" Theme had already become the "Last Stand" theme for the Rohirrim.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Of course some themes are the same in the sense that it's the same sequence of notes. But you won't find the vibe of Fellowship in Two Towers, and both not in Return of the King.

I can't say I've ever heard a better flow of soundscapes and themes that resolve in a coherent whole.

Indeed the only time there are intentional parallels is at the very end in Hobbiton at Sam's wedding. The context of the whole piece is that for some, the joyful life goes on (although with both feet on the ground), and for one, it doesn't, like the weary statement of Frodo's Song right afterwards indicates.

And even the statement of the Shire theme (pensive setting) that plays when the four hobbits enter Hobbiton is alot more conservative and weary, and lacks all the joyfulness of FotR. Howard Shore wanted it this way, and he also substitutes the whistle for a flute to hint at the hobbits' changed personalities, like he said himself.

The goal of all three scores isn't to develop and evolve all themes to the point where you don't recognise them anymore (although there are plenty of developed details that needs a third and fourth intense listen), but to build on them and expand them in a way that the audience recognises them and serve as a mirror image of the story.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

When the hobbits return to The shire the 'concerning hobbits is played'. This is the one that cames first in my mind

You are correct, it's arranged slightly differently, but pretty much the same. But I'm sure that was done on purpose.

The Rohirrim theme is played several times

True, but not really in the same way as in TTT.

When saruman dies his theme is played.

The nature reclamation is played in the same manner

I think what he ment was that while themes are (naturally) re-used, they are almost always written and performed differently, not just dumped in without any realy change.

They feel tailor-made for the scene, rather then feeling like tracked music.

Ok i think i understand more or less what he wanted to say. But i think that the manner it was said sounded as if no theme had a previous-movie-like performance.

Nevertheless...Am i the only one who thinks ROTK is heavily orchestrated compared with FOTR and TTT because Shore noticed that was the reason TTT was not eligible for an Academy award after the new rule?

I still dont know why there is hardly different orchestrations in the earlier movies.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

TTT probably was eligable, but confusion surrounding the new rules prevented it from getting a nomination.

I think the main reasonj is that with both FOTR and TTT he was to some degree holding back a bit, since he needed to have somewere to go. ROTK is the last film, and the climax of the story, so he could pull out all the stops.

[gkgyver 1,645]

TTT is a transitional phase between FOTR and ROTK, in orchestration as well as thematic material.

But i think that the manner it was said sounded as if no theme had a previous-movie-like performance.

Not all of them, but few.

[Incanus 5,715]

When the so-called 'Nature' theme appeared in RoTK, for Theoden at Minas Tirith, it felt dropped in to me.

Nature's Reclamation is an evolving theme rather in orchestration than in form as Nature is basically the same as it always has been all through the films. This theme does not only describe Nature's purity and its mission to assert a balance to the world but also the will to fight and in this way reclaim the nature of good in the characters and events. It seems to herald the unexpected arrivals, rescues and Good that lies in the world itself that is opposing the Evil that is Sauron.

First the Nature's Reclamation is heard in FotR when the moth is seen flying to Orthanc and to Gandalf, thus it is unexpected rescue/help. There the Nature's theme is in its first pure form representing living world and its power and also suffering it endures as Isengard's forests are being destroyed. There is another subtle variation of Nature's Reclamation when Merry and Pippin lead the Uruk-hai away from Frodo at Amon Hen where the theme represents this sudden positive turn of events as Merry suddenly decides that he (potentially) sacrifices himself and Pippin so that Frodo may get away safely.

In TTT the theme rises from the small clarinet setting outside Fangorn into a climactic heights as the Nature (=natural world) awakens and clashes with the Industry of Isengard. This is pure Nature VS Industry use of the music, the purity of Nature's Reclamation theme purifying the Isegard theme from the world. Huge variations on the theme are played during the flooding of Saruman's fortress which is just this music that has reached its apex. It begins with the similar setting that is heard in FotR but grows suddenly from solo soprano (in the Last March of the Ents) to a full choir and orchestra showing in a sense the great power that resides in Nature and what it can be aroused to do. It can be pure and beautiful, fragile even but when defiled it has the power to stop it. In a sense an eucatastrophe theme yet again. Ents come to the rescue of the world which is unexpected but lucky turn of events.

In RotK Nature's Reclamation seems to shift its meaning to this reclaiming of the Good in ones nature and the unexpected help/rescue which was one of its meanings in FotR and TTT. It is now associated with the Rohirrim as they ponder whether to go to aid their allies in Gondor and in the beginning they hover undecided over the matter. When Theoden finally decides the theme plays as if to inform us that it is the Right and Good thing to do, a noble thing that is for the good of the world. The high choral sound is gone from the theme and it is replaced with this down to earth orchestral tone that is heavier, stronger and more human than the one before as the theme now refers to Rohirrim and in a way to all humans. Again the sudden arrival at the Pelennor fields earns this theme as the Rohirrim charge against vast numbers and know well that they might be destroyed that day. Nature's Reclamation stresses both the unexpected help but also the fact that this is setting the balance of the world and is a good and noble act which might safe the day.

The final variation is again associated with the Nature as the moth comes to Gandalf at the Black Gate to inform of the arrival the Great Eagles. Here the music has again the choral sound which is associated the Natural world which is now joining in the fight agaist the imbalance which is Sauron.

Mostly people see this theme as a depiction of nature but it has in my opinion a deeper meaning which cannot be tied to the Nature VS Industry battle alone.

[indy4 155]

I've always thought about it as the "We will probably die, but what the hell, let's do this thing!" theme, but much more beautiful and sophisticated than that.

[publicist 4,643]

I've always thought about it as the "We will probably die, but what the hell, let's do this thing!" theme, but much more beautiful and sophisticated than that.

Maybe Shore realized halfway through the trilogy, that the theme was more useful than he thought at first. I distinctly remember him referring to that theme (which is certainly one of the better thematic inventions of LotR) as 'Proclamation of nature' theme or something like that, so he eventually may have decided that it would fit other needs as well, instantly finding a far-fetched interpretation for it's use

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

The 'Nature Reclamation theme' is called so in the liner notes...

I wonder how they call it in the ROTK ones.

Anyway, The rohirrim have many horses. And its a Horses vs oliphaunts battle.

There is still nature there...thats what i want to think...

[Incanus 5,715]

This music is open to personal interpretation as well even if we have liner notes telling us one thing about the theme it does not rule out another view on the matter.

Also we should not underestimate Shore's intelligence here. His views on this music are very complex and of course they kept evolving with time he spend researching on the subject and while scoring the films. Film makers had a lot of influence on his music and their continuing collaboration resulted some new connections in the thematic material.

I do not think Shore somehow made up some of the thematic connections later to fill in or explain the uses of the themes.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

This music is open to personal interpretation as well even if we have liner notes telling us one thing about the theme it does not rule out another view on the matter.

Well, if the names of the themes were given by Shore, i rather follow that interpretation than my personal one...

Who knows, maybe in the ROTK liner notes they say he used the nature theme with the rohirrim because it had the most musical impact, and is not a thematic usage at all...

[Incanus 5,715]

This music is open to personal interpretation as well even if we have liner notes telling us one thing about the theme it does not rule out another view on the matter.

Well, if the names of the themes were given by Shore, i rather follow that interpretation than my personal one...

Who knows, maybe in the ROTK liner notes they say he used the nature theme with the rohirrim because it had the most musical impact, and is not a thematic usage at all...

Name of the theme may be the same but the meaning can change and evolve during the course of the films. And of course it could be that this particular music was used in the Rohirrim scenes for its impact alone but I highly doubt it. The film makers were far too concerned with the music to do that.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

The film makers were far too concerned with the music to do that.

The music is still alot of edited in this movie though...

I dunno, i can really picture Jackson asking to put this theme in this particular scene because it will be great emotionally....

[Incanus 5,715]

The film makers were far too concerned with the music to do that.

The music is still alot of edited in this movie though...

I dunno, i can really picture Jackson asking to put this theme in this particular scene because it will be great emotionally....

Maybe, maybe not. Who knows?... Oh well we will know in about 3 weeks when the music and the wonderful liner notes will come out

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

The film makers were far too concerned with the music to do that.

The music is still alot of edited in this movie though...

I dunno, i can really picture Jackson asking to put this theme in this particular scene because it will be great emotionally....

Maybe, maybe not. Who knows?... Oh well we will know in about 3 weeks when the music and the wonderful liner notes will come out

definately

[gkgyver 1,645]

Nature's reclamation and the reclamation of Middle-Earth to men has much in common, don't you think?

In this scene, nature and men are united for achieving the very same thing, so that theme is not only appropriate, it's also pretty brilliant.

[Morlock 11]

That's reaching. Sure, one can somehow explain any seemingly misplaced leitmotif....but that theme was used, brilliantly, as nature's triumphant theme. Using it for Theoden strikes me as just using a terrific theme, with a rather tentative thematic connection to the proceedings on screen.

[Incanus 5,715]

Doug Adams On Nature’s Theme last year little before the release of the TTT CR:

 

Quote

Ok, before I go more in-depth, a bit about the Nature Theme – or more specifically, Nature’s Reclamation. Nature’s Reclamation is a very general theme that represents Middle-earth’s resistance to the encroaching industrialization as embodied by the Orcs, the Uruk’s, Saruman, Isengard, Mordor, etc. (Or, I suppose you could boil that all down to Sauron, all others being extensions of his will.) I don’t know if you’d call it a Eucatastrophe theme, though I suppose you could. Really, it’s the theme of the machinery of the Eucatastrophe. The theme of the provider, the enabler, less than the event itself. It’s a giving theme. The moth is aiding Gandalf. The Ents are protecting the forests. 

So what of the Rohirrim at Helm’s Deep... specifically Théoden? Unquestionably there are acts of selflessness here. Théoden, for all he knows, is riding to his doom. But are the Rohirrim really acting as givers... are they the machinery behind a Eucatastrophic event?* Does Théoden’s act really lead to victory at Helm’s Deep? No, it’s the intervention of Gandalf the White. Gandalf now exists in Middle-earth by the will of the same forces that govern Nature’s will. He has been sent back to tend to a task. And at Helm’s Deep, Gandalf is the giver. The Rohirrim are not his people, specifically. He’s bringing them aid. So you will find that in Two Towers there is a second Nature theme that specifically applies to Gandalf the White’s presence in Middle-earth, and it is this theme that originally underscored this scene in the film. It’s a subordinate Nature theme and much more specific dramatically. Before you go scrambling for your DVDs, this isn’t apparent in the film because of the tracking. But it’s gloriously obvious on CD when you hear the complete score.

[*I should note that the Rohirrim do eventually become givers—enablers of a Eucatastrophe—in Return of the King, so it makes more sense for the Nature’s Reclamation theme to be assigned to them here. (At Helm's Deep they're not really acting in defense of Middle-earth, they're defending themselves.) Not only do the Rohirrim represent the purity and simple power of a rural lifestyle in Tolkien’s hierarchy, but in ROTK they’re actively serving the will of Nature rather than receiving its benefits.]

 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Indeed!

[Morlock 11]

....And Doug Adams is exceptionally good at coming up with a possible explanation, and would defend Shore's work to the death. If it's a nature theme, it's used in some (thematically) inappropriate places. If it's a general middle earth resistance theme, it is not used enough.