Are Part III's bad?

[Lurker 5]

Neil, I respect your opinion of ROTJ, but how you can speak of Alien 3, Godfather Part III, and Austin Powers in Goldmember in a higher manner than that film is just baffles me.

I apologize if it seems like I prefer Goldmember to ROTJ. Between the two of those movies, I'd probably choose death. That being said, the opening to Goldmember is hysterical, with Kevin Spacey and Danny DeVito making memorable cameos. Especially DeVito, who's dialogue I still have memorized, despite not having seen the movie in over 2 years. Okay, I'd choose the first five minutes of Goldmember, then the firing squad.

I was not a big Godfather Part III fan, but last year I saw 35mm prints of all three movies back to back last year, and it held its own. Obviously, it's not a Best Picture like the first two, but it's not an embarassment of the caliber of Jedi.

Jedi has no redeeming virtues beyond the score, which is a step down from the first two, and is a let down in every conceivable way. I won't let nostalgia blind me on this issue.

Neil

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Jedi has no redeeming virtues beyond the score, which is a step down from the first two,  and is a let down in every conceivable way.  I won't let nostalgia blind me on this issue.

Neil

'From a certain point of view' - Ben Kenobi, Return of the Jedi.

[A24 4,345]

Jedi has no redeeming virtues beyond the score, which is a step down from the first two,  and is a let down in every conceivable way.  I won't let nostalgia blind me on this issue.

Neil

'From a certain point of view' - Ben Kenobi, Return of the Jedi.

And certainly from a film fan's point of view. The film feels hasty and hurried in several key moments. I went "what?!" more than a couple of times during its first run. Important scenes completely destroyed due to hastiness. Then there's the production designer's point of view... etc, etc.

----------------

Alex Cremers

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I wish they would have let me fix the script for Return of the Jedi, and it would have been a much better though different film, and yes Vader would have remained evil till he died, which is they way it should have been.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

In your fantasy world, ROJ (and ESB) will not exist, so dont say lies.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

No, Luke your wrong, I love the movie Empire Strikes Back, always have.

I like Jedi, wish it had been good, or better.

[A24 4,345]

I wish you had written the screenplay, Joe. Really, I'm serious! What would you have done differently?

----------------

Alex Cremers

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Han dies, so does Lando.

Wookies instead of Ewoks.

Luke and Leia spend the night together before finding out they are siblings.

Vader tries to lure Luke to the Dark Side to he can destroy the Emperor and take his place, instead of being his lap dog!

Vaders mask hides a hideously deformed creature, eveil and hatefull even in his final moments.

Luke and Leia choose not to disclose their family secret and the film ends with a marriage between them, with Leia wearing the slave girl uniform picked up from Jabba.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I would have it roughly follow the original outline. The plot being the hunt for Boba Fett, eventually leading to Jabba the Hutt at the end. Jabba would not be a slug. His palace would like much better, like a real palace instead of a dankly lit soundstage. Han would die in the final battle. Luke and Leia would not be brother and sister. At the end, Jabba (the human) would be killed, Leia returns heartbroken to lead the Rebellion, and Luke heads for Dagobah to complete his training. There is no Death Star II, there is no Emperor, apart from communications. Vader would continue to hunt down the Rebels, and we found out more about his history. He'd also get a new assignment from the Emperor (via hologram) that inflicts on the search for Boba Fett. The film would be followed by three more sequels.

- Marc

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I wish you had written the screenplay, Joe. Really, I'm serious! What would you have done differently?

----------------

Alex Cremers

Alex, let me get back to you on this, becuase I have thought about it for years, but never committed it to paper or internet screens, so when I do it, I want it to be "logical", though I find others interpretations interesting.

BTW, I recently discovered some cd'rs that I thought my wife had mailed out over a year ago, some for you and for someone else.

I will try to get them out soon.

[A24 4,345]

Not bad, Breathmask. But the killing of Jabba for the film's big climax? It sounds more like a subplot.

----------------

Alex Cremers

[A24 4,345]

BTW, I recently discovered some cd'rs that I thought my wife had mailed out over a year ago, some for you and for someone else.  

I will try to get them out soon.

That's right! Great!

----------------

Alex Cremers

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Not bad, Breathmask. But the killing of Jabba for the film's big climax? It sounds more like a subplot.

It doesn't have to be, if you think about it. It deals with the fate of a main character, so if you make Jabba evil enough to complicate things for the Rebels while the Empire fights them, you can have a very interesting story. Good work, Marc.

[Morlock 11]

I apologize if it seems like I prefer Goldmember to ROTJ.  Between the two of those movies, I'd probably choose death.  That being said, the opening to Goldmember is hysterical, with Kevin Spacey and Danny DeVito making memorable cameos.  Especially DeVito, who's dialogue I still have memorized, despite not having seen the movie in over 2 years.  Okay, I'd choose the first five minutes of Goldmember, then the firing squad.

I also thought Nathan Lane's cameo was great. The movie overall sucks, but I laughed as hard at the first five minutes of that movie as I ever have in the theater.

A quick update of my opinions on number 3s- I liked the third Die Hard movie a lot more than the first two. The 3rd Indy movie is fantastic, almost is good as Raiders. Godfather 3 is much better than it's given credit for, nowhere near as godo as the second one and not in the same vague vicinity of the first, but still pretty good. Jurrassic Park 3 sucks. HP 3 is great, much better than the first two. RoTK is by far my favorite LoTR. Back To The Future 3 is a lot of fun. Matrix 3 sucks on several levels. Naked Gun 33 1/3 made me laugh very hard. The Final Conflict is a baaaaaaad movie, but every once in a while gives the illusion of good filmmaking because of the magnificent score. I've always liked RoTJ, but I can't say I'm a big enough SW fan to have many inherent objections to it. The Madness of King George III was way better than parts I & II.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Not bad, Breathmask. But the killing of Jabba for the film's big climax? It sounds more like a subplot.

It doesn't have to be, if you think about it. It deals with the fate of a main character, so if you make Jabba evil enough to complicate things for the Rebels while the Empire fights them, you can have a very interesting story. Good work, Marc.

Yes, that's the idea. Jabba's not an immobile slug here. He's a vicious low-life piece of shit, that is in league with the Empire, and double-crosses them at the same time (he is a smuggler's boss of course). He'd sell his mother for a nickel and a dime. In the end, his involvements with the Empire should trigger his demise.

[HPFAN_2 0]

Vader would have remained evil till he died, which is they way it should have been.

EXACTLY!

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Die Hard 3 was not very good to me, the reason, it completely left out Bonnie Badelia's character, and the brother of Hans Grueber as the villian was a real stretch, he failed to compare to the first two bad guys.

[Lurker 5]

In all of your proposed ROTJ storylines, would you still have Vader being Luke's father or would you have it clearly being someone else, as Ben says in Star Wars?

Neil

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I'm sorry Neil, Darth Vader = Luke's Father.

Ben was lying to Luke that day.

[Justin 2]

I agree. Everyone assumed Vader was lying in ESB. Or at least they didn't take him at his word.

Justin

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Ben always looked kinda shifty eyed when he's telling Luke about his father's faith in SW.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

That's a good question. I'm not sure, but I'm tempted to say no. I think it might work even better if he was lying, but Luke was completely convinced he wasn't for some time.

[fommes 153]

In all of your proposed ROTJ storylines, would you still have Vader being Luke's father or would you have it clearly being someone else, as Ben says in Star Wars?

Aha! That's the other Yoda is talking about then, in an alternate Return of the Jedi: Luke's father, who would then not be Darth Vader - the return of a jedi.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

That does not make sense at all, i'm sorry!

[Lurker 5]

"How, " he asked slowly, "did my father die?"

Kenobi hesitated, and Luke sensed that the old man had no wish to talk about this particular matter.  Unlike Owen Lars, however, Kenobi was unable to take refuge in a comfortable lie.

"He was betrayed and murdered," Kenobi declared solemnly, "by a very young Jedi named Darth Vader."  He was not looking at Luke.  "A boy I was training.  One of my brightest disciples...one of my greatest failures."

Pay particular attention to the part stating, "Kenobi was unable to take refuge in a comfortable lie".

Neil

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I also clearly remember the foreword by Lucas in a 90's TESB novel reprint stating clearely that he had always intended Vader to be Luke's father.

Either Ben was lying, or George was lying.

But since George created Ben, I assume both are lying.

Therefore Darth Vader = Anakin Skywalker.

Next!

[igor 0]

Problem why noone likes star wars is that no one takes what Lucas gives to them, insteead formulating a story in their minds on how things should go...

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Yes, but we're talking here about our own alternate universe. Where Luke and Leia are not brother and sister, where Jabba isn't a giant slug, and where Darth Vader does not redeem himself. Lucas says these are all things that were always planned, but we're changing them here.

[Lurker 5]

Steef, your reasoning and conclusion do not make sense. However, Lotman is clearly onto something.

Neil

[fommes 153]

Either Ben was lying, or George was lying.  

But since George created Ben, I assume both are lying.

Pay particular attention to the part stating, "Kenobi was unable to take refuge in a comfortable lie".

I guess that's not strong enough to base the entire idea that Anakin isn't Darth Vader, as the novelizer, Alan Dean Foster, probably just took Lucas's script and elaborated on it - not having an idea of the films to come. This is an interesting example, though, of how we - as cognitive readers - place novelizations with regard to the movies they 'copy'. What I mean is: what do we do when a scene in the novelization opposes to a film scene - how do we reconcile them? (The different spin-offs of The Blair Witch Project seem to be an excellent example, too, but I haven't read/seen any.)

Now back to Star Wars, I think it would have been a very interesting choice/possibility to consider that Anakin isn't Darth Vader, but the other. Perhaps the film could have remained more consistent then...

[JoeinAR 1,949]

No doubt that Obi Wan lied, and Vader is Luke's father, in Empire Luke knows it to be true. There is no changing this.

Kenobi hesitated, and Luke sensed that the old man had no wish to talk about this particular matter. Unlike Owen Lars, however, Kenobi was unable to take refuge in a comfortable lie.  

But he was able to take refuge in an uncomfortable one.

How easy would it be for Ben to tell Luke, yes one of the galaxies great mass murderers is your father.

Luke your father is alive, he's Darth Vader, the #2 man in the Empire behind the Emperor and Grand Moff Tarkin. He's killed millions, he slaughtered all the Jedi, and caused the death of your mother. He's a nice guy, you outta meet him.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

"How, " he asked slowly, "did my father die?"

Kenobi hesitated, and Luke sensed that the old man had no wish to talk about this particular matter.  Unlike Owen Lars, however, Kenobi was unable to take refuge in a comfortable lie.

"He was betrayed and murdered," Kenobi declared solemnly, "by a very young Jedi named Darth Vader."  He was not looking at Luke.  "A boy I was training.  One of my brightest disciples...one of my greatest failures."

Pay particular attention to the part stating, "Kenobi was unable to take refuge in a comfortable lie".

Neil

How is that you and joe just switch opinions when the situation suits you?

A) That is a novelization. Not strictly canon.

B) Pay particular attention to the part stating, "He was not looking at Luke" <- this reluctancy to make eye contact could mean lying.

C) Joe, now you like jedi? It wouldnt hurt it if you just bashed it a little less.

D) The dark side beckons is the most emotive scene in the SW saga, mostly becasue Williams music, but part also by the conflict between father and son, and later redeption. The wish scenes you describe are just typical light vs dark duel, with the bad guy ticpically dying.

[fommes 153]

A) That is a novelization. Not strictly canon.

Please elaborate.

And what do you think of adaptation? Is that canon?

Why wouldn't novelization (and perhaps adaptation) be accepted as canon?

(This isn't criticism on my part, but neutral questions - I'm just curious for your opinions.)

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Return of the Jedi ? I've seen it probably twice. Pretty good, though it does feel like I've missed something between it and ESB.

Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade ? This was always my favourite Indy film, and it still is. I like Raiders but I feel it drags in parts (damn my action-loving generation) and Temple is second on my list. I don't know why, perhaps I need to watch them all again. I haven't seen Raiders for about two years, but I've seen the other two at least twice in the last year.

Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban ? So much better than the first two. I'm more interested in the books, though, so I liked seeing the story moulded into something else, that makes a good film. The books as they are wouldn't make good films because there's simply too much going on (my major beef with the first two movies). I liked the plot twist (finding Peter on the map) even enough to ignore some of the less enchanting things (Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs' real identities).

Austin Powers in Goldmember ? Awful. Then again, I didn't like Spy Who Shagged Me much either. It ran out of ideas as well, borrowing too much from the first film. The first film, however, will remain a classic in my mind. It was simply brilliant.

Jurassic Park III ? It entertained me. It had some good ideas, but they weren't elaborated on. I expected (and would have preferred) at least twenty minutes more and I would have liked it better.

Return of the King - Loved it. I got shivers the whole way through, and the score is very good. I really missed another LotR to see on Boxing Day last year...

Pay particular attention to the part stating, "Kenobi was unable to take refuge in a comfortable lie".

I would put emphasis on "comfortable". He could still lie, but not comfortably.

[QMM 4]

In all of your proposed ROTJ storylines, would you still have Vader being Luke's father or would you have it clearly being someone else, as Ben says in Star Wars?

Aha! That's the other Yoda is talking about then, in an alternate Return of the Jedi: Luke's father, who would then not be Darth Vader - the return of a jedi.

Would have made more sense instead of Return of THE Jedi (seeing as since Luke is basically the last jedi (Leia is weird...) and he never really hooked up with anyone at the end of the films (Mara Jade doesnt count from the expanded stuff))

Would have been a hell of a lot more exciting too, the whole talks of Lukes father from the first two movies, (possibly even could be seen in the backgrounds working in the shadows) only to find out that he's indeed still alive and comes back to kick Vader's ass.

Max-Just bought an Adobe Video Collection for half the price listed on the official site ($1,000)

[JoeinAR 1,949]

C) Joe, now you like jedi? It wouldnt hurt it if you just bashed it a little less

Luke, I haven't changed my opinion, I wasn't even talking about Jedi, but ESB, thats where the revelation is.

[Lurker 5]

No doubt that Obi Wan lied, and Vader is Luke's father, in Empire Luke knows it to be true.   There is no changing this.

So now it's easier to believe that wise old sage Obi-Wan Kenobi, who was going to mentor Luke and take him under his wing is going to start his relationship with Luke by lying to him while Darth Vader, the galaxies biggest mass murderer, is going to just tell the truth? I don't believe that for a second. Ben was telling the truth, Vader was lying, either conciously or he was saying what the Emperor told him. There was a lot of speculation about this between sequels, and Jedi took probably the laziest way to explain it away. Another reason to despise that film.

Neil

[A24 4,345]

So now it's easier to believe that wise old sage Obi-Wan Kenobi, who was going to mentor Luke and take him under his wing is going to start his relationship with Luke by lying to him while Darth Vader, the galaxies biggest mass murderer, is going to just tell the truth?  I don't believe that for a second.  Ben was telling the truth, Vader was lying, either conciously or he was saying what the Emperor told him.  There was a lot of speculation about this between sequels, and Jedi took probably the laziest way to explain it away.  Another reason to despise that film.

l

Don't you see, Neil? George made up the story as he went along.

[Morlock 11]

I take it back. Star Wars is more nerdy.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

No doubt that Obi Wan lied, and Vader is Luke's father, in Empire Luke knows it to be true.   There is no changing this.

So now it's easier to believe that wise old sage Obi-Wan Kenobi, who was going to mentor Luke and take him under his wing is going to start his relationship with Luke by lying to him while Darth Vader, the galaxies biggest mass murderer, is going to just tell the truth? I don't believe that for a second. Ben was telling the truth, Vader was lying, either conciously or he was saying what the Emperor told him. There was a lot of speculation about this between sequels, and Jedi took probably the laziest way to explain it away. Another reason to despise that film.

Neil

I said all along that Old Ben was a liar. You could see it in Star Wars. He's shifty, and averts his eyes.

Its often funny but there are times when one commits one type of crime but doesn't commit another.

The reason I believe Vader is he basically told Luke to use the force, to search his feelings.

Granted based on Star Wars and ESB, you cannot prove Ben a liar.

It is only in the subsequent films that he is proved to have lied, not once but at least twice, from a certain point of view. Granted the droids were never his, yet he had some familiarity with the droids that was almost like ownership. He's certainly not above telling "his" truth.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

No doubt that Obi Wan lied, and Vader is Luke's father, in Empire Luke knows it to be true.   There is no changing this.

So now it's easier to believe that wise old sage Obi-Wan Kenobi, who was going to mentor Luke and take him under his wing is going to start his relationship with Luke by lying to him while Darth Vader, the galaxies biggest mass murderer, is going to just tell the truth? I don't believe that for a second. Ben was telling the truth, Vader was lying, either conciously or he was saying what the Emperor told him. There was a lot of speculation about this between sequels, and Jedi took probably the laziest way to explain it away. Another reason to despise that film.

Neil

Both Obi wan and Yoda (as seen in ROJ) didnt want the blood realtion to interfere in Luke's destiny of destroying the sith. You see luke saying 'i cant kill my father', after yoda reveals. Telling the truth didnt suit them.

Telling the truth did suit Vader, he will mine Luke's mind, and telling the truth is more efective, since luke could 'search his feelings to know it to be true'.

Lotman: no book based on SW is canon. Canon in SW means just what is seen in the movies. There is hierarchy though. The Radio dramas and novelizations are near canon, but there are things in those that interfere with subsquent sequels, furthermore the descriptions of some alien character are way out of the reality (like jabba who i think has hair) And then comes the EU, who as long as it doesnt contradict the movies is ok, but if something is different, its the movie's vision what counts.

The clone wars cartoons are also almost canon, since the last episode will tie in with EPIII...

Questionmarkman: Return of the Jedi is so good to describe the movie as it is. Dont you see the ambivalence? The is either singular or plural, just chose what you feel.

My opinion? it is plural. With lukes victory, the jedi order will again resurface, and that ties neatly with the prequels.

For years i though it just meant Return of Luke, since he looked like he had been doing training somewhere and returned the rebellion as a jedi. But the movie later says another thing.. (the spanish title also added to the misunderstanding, since 'the' is here different in singular than plural, and they choose singular. Fortunately they choose well with ROTS, being it plural)

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

I take it back. Star Wars is more nerdy.

LOL You definitely have some good evidence here.

Ray Barnsbury

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Return of the Jedi is such a great movie! Look! Everyone's talking about it!

[Lurker 5]

Return of the Jedi is such a great movie!  Look!  Everyone's talking about it!

Talking about ways to make it better.

Neil

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

All publicity is good publicity.

[A24 4,345]

Return of the Jedi is such a great movie! Look! Everyone's talking about it!

Everyone is talking about "the tsunami". Does that make it great?

----------------

Alex Cremers

[King Mark 3,631]

D) The dark side beckons is the most emotive scene in the SW saga, mostly becasue Williams music, but part also by the conflict between father and son, and later redeption. The wish scenes you describe are just typical light vs dark duel, with the bad guy ticpically dying.

yes,THAT is the redeming part of this film.The whole Final duel scene with the incredible music,then Vader having to choose between Luke and the Emperor while Luke was beeing electrocuted with the force lightning.I remember,I was entranced at the scene,on the edge of my seat.I did not see it coming.A great moment in cinema.

My big problem with RotJ is every scene in which Han or Leia appear,their moronic mission on Endor,the Ewoks.Ford and Fisher look miserably trapped in that movie.That's where the movie fails miserably.

K.M.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Everyone is talking about "the tsunami". Does that make it great?    

----------------

Alex Cremers

I'm a big fan, I hope The Tsunami does Europe one day.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Everyone is talking about "the tsunami". Does that make it great?    

----------------

Alex Cremers

I'm a big fan, I hope The Tsunami does Europe one day.

unfortunately, The Tsunami will one play on the Eastern Seaboard of the US, and its boxoffice returns will be the biggest ever.!!!!!

'Course like all sequels, this one will actually be called MegaTsunami, and it will bigger and badder.

It will come from the La Palma Island landslide.

[Romão 2,274]

If Vader was not Lukes father and was not redeemed at the end, all the the signficance of the saga would be lost, IMHO. I cannot conceive the SW saga without Vader's redemption, it just doesn't make any sense to me...the plot loses gravitas.

Romão, who loves ROTJ.