The positive Prequel Trilogy thread

[Greg1138 3]

Bitte

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Roald, I like the idea of this thread and am perfectly able to live with the fact that other people have different opinions about these films then myself.

But there is a question I have asked myself a lot recently and I would like your POV on it.

I do not wish to engate into any prequel bashing in this thread.

Time and again, George Lucas has said that he wanted the prequels and the original trilogy to form a seamless very long film.

But even with certain changes made to the OT, there still excist a few very obvious continuity errors between what is shown in the prequels and what we can gather from the OT.

For instance Owen not being the full brother of Anakin and hardly knowing him and the fact that C3PO works at his farm, even though in ANH he has no need for a protocal droid. Princess LEIA not being a princess at all etc etc...

There are many small errors between these 2 series of films that added together prevents IMO to form any kind of seamless story at all.

Do you as a prequel lover go along in Lucas wish to see these 6 films as a complete whole, or do you just ignore these things and enjoy them anyway?

[Trent B 337]

Roald, I like the idea of this thread and am perfectly able to live with the fact that other people have different opinions about these films then myself.

But there is a question I have asked myself a lot recently and I would like your POV on it.

I do not wish to engate into any prequel bashing in this thread.

Time and again, George Lucas has said that he wanted the prequels and the original trilogy to form a seamless very long film.

But even with certain changes made to the OT, there still excist a few very obvious continuity errors between what is shown in the prequels and what we can gather from the OT.

For instance Owen not being the full brother of Anakin and hardly knowing him and the fact that C3PO works at his farm, even though in ANH he has no need for a protocal droid. Princess LEIA not being a princess at all etc etc...

There are many small errors between these 2 series of films that added together prevents IMO to form any kind of seamless story at all.

Do you as a prequel lover go along in Lucas wish to see these 6 films as a complete whole, or do you just ignore these things and enjoy them anyway?

I see where you're going at. I can't speak for Roald, but myself personally, I just ignore these things and enjoy the films.

[Greg1138 3]

One issue woth one of thos Steef - it is established early on that certainly on Naboo, a position of royalty is an elected position....is it too much of a stretch to think that this might be so elsewhere?

As for the rest...well....there are others too.....but hell - I just enjoy them anyway.....

...after all - show me a movie series that hasn't got continuity errors? Indiana Jones had them, Bond had them, The Omen had them....and so on and so on.....doesn't detract from the fact that they are great movies......

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Roald, I like the idea of this thread and am perfectly able to live with the fact that other people have different opinions about these films then myself.

But there is a question I have asked myself a lot recently and I would like your POV on it.

I do not wish to engate into any prequel bashing in this thread.

Time and again, George Lucas has said that he wanted the prequels and the original trilogy to form a seamless very long film.

But even with certain changes made to the OT, there still excist a few very obvious continuity errors between what is shown in the prequels and what we can gather from the OT.

For instance Owen not being the full brother of Anakin and hardly knowing him and the fact that C3PO works at his farm, even though in ANH he has no need for a protocal droid. Princess LEIA not being a princess at all etc etc...

There are many small errors between these 2 series of films that added together prevents IMO to form any kind of seamless story at all.

Do you as a prequel lover go along in Lucas wish to see these 6 films as a complete whole, or do you just ignore these things and enjoy them anyway?

Does it bother you that Indiana Jones is an atheist at the start of each of his three films, even though he's discovered powerful supernatural powers and used them to save his life in all former movies? Does it bother you that the gun joke in Temple of Doom couldn't really happen since Indy has yet to go through the events in Raiders? Or that a Christian catacomb has a painting depicting the Ark of the Covenant instead of a paleo-christian painting?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

One issue woth one of thos Steef - it is established early on that certainly on Naboo, a position of royalty is an elected position....is it too much of a stretch to think that this might be so elsewhere?

Well I can understand the concept of a elected Queen, but a Princess?

As for the rest...well....there are others too.....but hell - I just enjoy them anyway.....

OK I understand.

...after all - show me a movie series that hasn't got continuity errors?  Indiana Jones had them, Bond had them, The Omen had them....and so on and so on.....doesn't detract from the fact that they are great movies......

Well those are different, the Indy and Bond films were not ment to be a seamless whole by their creators.

For the prequels Lucas has said a very important aspect is to tie everything together, so looking closely as points were the 2 trilogies differ is definatly something that has validity.

BTW, I would definatly not consider the 2 Omen sequels great film, not indeed very good ones. (good scores though)

Also, Roald, you call yourself a fan of the prequels, yet you have once said on the MB that TPM was a very bad film, and that watching AOTC a second (or third/fourth) time was a big mistake.

Have you since changed that opinion?

[DarkLord89 0]

For instance Owen not being the full brother of Anakin and hardly knowing him and the fact that C3PO works at his farm, even though in ANH he has no need for a protocal droid.

Well, if you see the movies and nothing else, nobody says in the OT that Owen Lars is Obi-Wan's brother. Even before the PT Owen Lars was called "LARS" and Obi-Wan Kenobi "KENOBI". It's just another possibility the plot can take instead of the original idea Lucas had around the time of RotJ.

For the second point, well, how do you know Owen has no need for a protocol droid?

Princess LEIA not being a princess at all etc etc...

I thought we already discussed this in the other thread. Princess Leia is the adoptive daughter of the Royal Family of Alderaan, whose head-member is also the Senator from the planet. It is one of those little things which were FIRMLY established before the prequels (not the case mentioned above of Ben-Owen relationship), just like the highly anticipated lava planet for the big confrontation between Obi-Wan and Darth Vader. The general idea of the ending duel in RotS was already fleshed out back in the ideas for the OT. Lucas announced it went that way when the trilogy wasn't even complete (IIRC it's been between the release of Star Wars in 1977 and the release of Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back in 1980).

Do you as a prequel lover go along in Lucas wish to see these 6 films as a complete whole, or do you just ignore these things and enjoy them anyway?

The main idea is coveyed perfectly. These are just small continuity errors which can be ignored by watching the films and enjoying them. As I said in the other thread, over-analysing is VERY dangerous, because it makes you unable to appreciate simple things, made to be not-so-perfect-but-funny. I think that with my last sentences I made clear which is my opinion on the question you posted.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I think The Phantom Menace is underrated as a film, and I think the score is the last great Star Wars score. Its a great one.

In each movie there is something that I do like.

Joe, who thinks AOTC is a piece of shit, both the movie, and the score, but to be respectful, I decided to do this in invisotext

[Romão 2,274]

I just love how the prequels shattered some of precoceptions about the saga.

I ANH, Obi-Wan mentions how the Jedi were the guardians of peace and justice throughout the galaxy, and all of the sudden comes the big bad empire and destroys paradise. And things weren't really like that.

10 years ago, was anyone seriously expecting to see a flawed, confided, arrogant and almost blind Jedi Council in the prequels? Did anyone expect Anakin would turn to the dark side for the most unselfish feeling of them all - love?

In the OT, were are never led to question the Rebels' motives or objectives. Nor are we led to understand the Empire's point of view. It's all so clearly defined, so back and white, so not-ambiguous. It's pretty plain actually. Even the look of the ships of each faction, the costumes of the characters, the voices...everyhthing is meant for us not to have the slightest doubt of who the good guys are and who the bad guys are. You simple don't question it. Not for once we may be led to think that perhaps the rebels wouldn't really improve the galaxy.

But in prequels, everything is so indistinct. George Lucas did a lot of unexpected things on the prequels. How the republic was rotten even before Sidious. How it colapsed under its own wheight. The sith were just the spark that started the fire. The fuel was already there.

It's nice to see how 24 years of dictatorship actually were a necessary evil to galaxy. The republic simply had it coming. Well, at least for me, that was just so unexpected.

So, in a lot a ways, for its ambiguaty, for its metaphorical qualities

[Henry B 50]

Here's a good prequel to OT comparison:

- In RotS, Obi-Wan crash lands in a hangar bay, does a triple flip out of his starfighter, and lands with lightsaber in battle droid.

- In Star Wars, Luke and Leia swing across a chasm on a rope.

And the latter scene is ten times better. This is why the two trilogies cannot hope to come together.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Yes, I can see how that's a positive comment...

[deleted account 108]

In answer to an earlier question, in ANH Owen tells 3PO "I have no need for a protocol droid".

In response to Steef's general query about in consistencies, Here are the hardest things to reconcile between the 2 trilogies:

1 - If Plagueis did create Anakin with the Force, then why the hell did he have him be born on a remote desert planet as a slave, and how the hell did Sidious have any idea Qui-Gon would find him and bring him to the Jedi on Coruscant? (My opinion = who cares, doesn't matter)

2 - When did Anakin tell Obi he wanted Luke to have his lightsaber whenhe was old enough? (My answer = OWK was lying (he does that a lot in the OT))

3 - How is it Leia remembers her mother in ROTJ but Luke doesn't? Padme even touches Luke, but not Leia, yet Luke says he "never knew her". (My answer - this is perhaps the biggest wrinkle left in the series by Lucas by having Padme die in ROTS. The popular fanboy answer is Leia knew her through the Force, even though it is latent is her, almost totally untapped). My feeling is, if you go back and take what Leia and Luke say literally and don't read into it or add any details in yourself, it doesn't actually contradict ROTS per se. But it's a hell of a stretch on Lucas's part.)

4 - In ANH, OWK implies that Uncle Owen at some point voiced disgruntlement at Anakin leaving Tatooine and following OWK on some damn fool idealistic crusade. From what we see, Owen had barely any words with Anakin in AOTC and none with OWK. (My answer - they must have talked at least once in a while in the intervening years between Ep 3 and 4, and maybe it was then that Owen spoke of his misgivings about Anakin leaving Tatooine. The novels imply that Owen was very close to Shmi, and maybe he held it against Anakin that he left his mother a slave and went off to become a Jedi.)

5 - It sure took a long time to build the first Death Star, didn't it?! (My answer - have you ever seen the government build something that worked quickly?)

6 - When does Vader realise Luke IS his son? Lucas's change to Ep 5 for the DVD in the Emperor scene on face value implies that Vader doesn't understand how Skywalker couldbe his son - after all, Sidious told him that he KILLED Padme, and she appeared to be pregnant when she was buried in her public funeral on Naboo.

And yet, how stupid is he that he's searching for a young Force-adept named Skywalker from Tatooine who studied with OWK?!?!? C'mon, DV, put it all together, slick! So is the subtext of that scene that DV is playing dumb with Sidious and actually already knows Luke's his son, but has plans to use Luke to take out the Emperor so they can rule as father and son?! (My answer - who knows...doesn't really make a difference either way, actually.)

7 - So if the Jedi are all dead and the few (2?) survivors are hiding on remote planets, why does Obi-Wan Kenobi walk around in his Jedi Robes all the time? Good way to keep a low profile, old man. (My answer - don't have a good one...)

8 - Why do Yoda and OWK decide Tatooine is the perfect place to hide Luke? Does it never occur to them that someone might catch wind of a little Skywalker baby on the planet Anakin was from?! (My answer - well, all the fanboys say that Anakin would never return to Tatooine because of the painful memories it elicits about his mother. Well, he seems ok with it in ANH, floating above it in orbit. And he doesn't seem to have a problem being on Coruscant where he used to live his wife that he thinks he killed. So who knows...Hide in plain sight, maybe?)

9 - everyone talks about the Old Republic like it was soooo long ago - if the Battle of Yavin happened today, the events of ROTS took place in 1985 - who talks about Reagan like it was some long-forgotten day? We still play video games about WWII for pete's sake, and that was 60 years ago! (My answer - I guess the Empire rewrote history a la Orwell's 1984 so people only had there memories to fall back on? Actually, this fact should have been obvious to me in 1977 when SW first came out because the math is the math - Luke is about 20 and his father was a Jedi, so there must have been Jedi 20 years ago...)

10 - Owen pays hard earned money for a droid he already owned. Well who can blame him for not remembering a droid he had for somewhere around 10 years 23 years ago? I've bought book twice, and DVDs too, not remembering I already had them at home. Still, this one is also a little convenient, aint it?

Well, that's all I can think of for now. Does anyone even care if I write any more?!

[Trent B 337]

If you're so worried about all these inconsistancies in the movies, why bother watching them at all? Geez. :roll: Just watch the damn films and have fun watching them. Forget all the inconsistantices....

[Adam 1]

If you're so worried about all these inconsistancies in the movies, why bother watching them at all?  Geez.  :roll:   Just watch the damn films and have fun watching them.  Forget all the inconsistantices....

He was addressing some of the types of things Stefancos brought up and I believe he said he liked the prequels. He took the time to offer thoughts about something people might be curious about and you found a way to be upset about it. Related to that kind of comment and the thread in general, it hurts the case of those who like the prequels to make a special thread where critics aren’t supposed to respond. It gives the impression that the intellectual basis for liking the prequels is so weak it can’t withstand free discussion. Or maybe the impression of a persecuted minority so lacking in self-confidence that prequel discussion must take the form of a big group hug, to avoid the blow to sensitive egos that would result otherwise.

There’s plenty of legitimate criticisms that could be made of prequel-bashing but its not hard to overcome it when people just calmly defend their thoughts and ideas like many people have in this thread. And then why not take the high road and encourage dissent and disagreement, something that shouldn’t be problematic if you’re secure in yourself and your views. Plus its more interesting to have debate, I think, but that’s just my 2 cents.

- Adam

[Sandor 797]

Stefan; I appreciate your questions and contribution to the thread, but to be honest, something tells me that your motivation for asking these questions concerning discontinuity in the Saga have very little to do with you actually wanting to know the answers, but everything with you trying to bring forward things which have been said and discussed all over the Internet for countless times just for the sake of arguing and trying to reinforce your conception that the Prequel Trilogy is flawed.

I won't go into details then. It was NEVER established in the Original Trilogy that Owen and Anakin were brothers. It was never said that they "knew each other very well". Lucas doesn't take into account everything that has been written in novels, comics, etc. and rightfully so. In the end it is HIS story.

Is there discontinuity in Star Wars? Sure. But mostly these things do not hinder me in any way to enjoy it to the full.

[robthehand 3]

Does it bother you that Indiana Jones is an atheist at the start of each of his three films, even though he's discovered powerful supernatural powers and used them to save his life in all former movies? Does it bother you that the gun joke in Temple of Doom couldn't really happen since Indy has yet to go through the events in Raiders? Or that a Christian catacomb has a painting depicting the Ark of the Covenant instead of a paleo-christian painting?

To be fair, the Indy films don't try to follow on from each other - the references are more in-jokes than anything else.

More to the point: who the hell finds both the Holy Grail and the Ark of the Covenant within three years?

[Sandor 797]

In all honesty; if inconsistencies or illogical moments limit your enjoyment of films than there is little you can watch.

I remember watching Die Another Day in the cinema a couple of years ago and during one of most exciting action sequences a weirdo sitting behind said: "...But that's not possible..."

I was so irritated by his remark; it pulled me out of the film and since then I carefully observe who's sitting behind me.

[robthehand 3]

In all honesty; if inconsistencies or illogical moments limit your enjoyment of films than there is little you can watch.

I remember watching Die Another Day in the cinema a couple of years ago and during one of most exciting action sequences a weirdo sitting behind said: "...But that's not possible..."

I was so irritated by his remark; it pulled me out of the film and since then I carefully observe who's sitting behind me.

That's annoying.

The cinema was the only place I actually enjoyed Die Another Day - but I enjoy just about any film first time round.

[MrScratch 294]

Positive things about the prequels:

Ewan McGregor

Christopher Lee

Ian McDiarmid

John Williams

The Podrace

Darth Maul

The Jedi Purge scenes

"The Beginning" Documentary

Jeff

[Jeshopk 8]

- In RotS, Obi-Wan crash lands in a hangar bay, does a triple flip out of his starfighter, and lands with lightsaber in battle droid.  

- In Star Wars, Luke and Leia swing across a chasm on a rope.  

And the latter scene is ten times better. This is why the two trilogies cannot hope to come together.

You could easily find a moment from the OT that is worse than the PT and make the same statement, but it would be just as nondemonstrative.

[A24 4,346]

- In RotS, Obi-Wan crash lands in a hangar bay, does a triple flip out of his starfighter, and lands with lightsaber in battle droid.  

- In Star Wars, Luke and Leia swing across a chasm on a rope.  

And the latter scene is ten times better. This is why the two trilogies cannot hope to come together.

You could easily find a moment from the OT that is worse than the PT and make the same statement, but it would be just as nondemonstrative.

No, but it's one moment in a series of moments. That's what makes it demonstrative.

[Jeshopk 8]

I don't know if there are any actual discontinuities between the trilogies that one would notice if they watched 1-6 for the first time. The reason that many people think there are discontinuities is because they lived with the OT for many years and filled in the blanks as they saw fit. Now that the blanks have been filled in differently than they saw them, they see it as discontinuity even though it is just unexpected.

For instance a first time watcher of 1-6 would have immediate answers for the following questions. (In fact, they would probably not even esk them):

Q) Why does ObiWan say he doesn't remember owning a droid?

A) He lies or is just saying he doesn't own a droid.

Q) Why doesn't anyone recognise the droids?

A) Many of them are identical in the galaxy. 3PO changed color (for Lars)

Q) Why is Leia a Princess?

A) Bail is a king or something on Aalderan

Q) Why did they hide Luke on Tatooine

A) Tatooine is ruled by the Hutts and is a good place to hide (established in TPM)

Q) Why does R2 not recognise Yoda.

A) What? Why do you say that? He obviously does, but thinks he's gone mad. Besides, you can't understand him.

Q) Why does Obi Wan say (insert lie here)

A) Because he lies to Luke

Q) Why does ObiWan walk around in Jedi robes when trying to hide?

A) Because lots of people on Tatooine have brown robes and it blends in.

Q) If Plagueis did create Anakin with the Force, then why the hell did he have him be born on a remote desert planet as a slave, and how the hell did Sidious have any idea Qui-Gon would find him and bring him to the Jedi on Coruscant?

A) The movies never say he did create Anakin. They just tease you with the question. And if he did, then Palpatine might have killed Plageus before he could retrieve Anakin.

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

This thread screams the neccesity of a neutral moderator.

Luke, not enyoing the thread at all.

[Greg1138 3]

I.....like....this.....thread....

[Jeshopk 8]

Yeah, Alex, Stefancos and Neil just can't leave well enough alone. It's frustrating that they keep stating negative opinion as fact. Constantly sabotaging any positive conversation on Prequels. This happens all over the net. Very annoying.

[edit - actually, I'm only really annoyed by Alex this time. Stefan and Neil were not really trying to rain on any parade.]

[Jeshopk 8]

Getting back on track. I'd like to say something positive (including about the special effects.) One of the great things about the prequels is the same thing that has always been great about Star Wars:

- Vast reaches of space

- Spaceships traveling from planet to planet

- Lightsaber ignitions

- Blaster fights

- Good versus evil

- Telekinesis

- Stormtroopers

- Droids

- John Williams and the London Symphony Orchestra

- Make-funnable dialogue

- British guys

- Strange Aliens

- Monster attacks

- Bad hair

- Cutting edge ILM magic

The new additions (also good) are

- Political tactics

- Increased multiculturalism

- Water

- Good guys more flawed

- More vibrant colors (before the dark times)

[Lurker 5]

Q) Why does Obi Wan say (insert lie here)

A) Because he lies to Luke

From the novelization....

"How," he asked slowly, "did my father die?"

Kenobi hesitated, and Luke sensed that the old man had no wish to talk about this particular matter. Unlike Owen Lars, however, Kenobi was unable to take refuge in a comfortable lie.

"He was betrayed and murdered," Kenobi declared solemnly, "by a very young Jedi named Darth Vader."

Neil - confident he can post this here because it's not Prequel related

[deleted account 108]

Kenobi was unable to take refuge in a comfortable lie

This still works with the prequels - it was clearly an UNCOMFORTABLE lie for Kenobi to tell

And the books can't really be used as claims for/against continuity because the novel for ROTJ is full of contradictions to the PT - for example, besides stating Obi-Wan and Owen were brothers, it also says Anakin didn't know Padme was pregnant, it says Padme took Leia to Alderaan herself, and that Anakin never met Yoda (this is stated when Luke takes his helmet off).

Even the novel for ROTS contradicts the movie, such as Anakin killing Shaak-Ti, which is different from the deleted scene of Grievous killing her (do cut scenes count as canon?)

Oh, and to the poster named LUKE SKYWALKER, I am a big fan of the entire SW series, I wasn't trying to bash on the prequels with my lengthy post on inconsistencies, I was trying to address a lot of the things that seem to come up when PT haters go on their rants.

Hey Neil, question for you: I assume (and I apologize if I am wrong about this) that you are someone who criticizes Lucas for only releasing the updated STAR WARS on DVD. How do you feel about the fact that ST:TMP is only available on DVD in an updated form and not in it's original theatrical version?

[Jeshopk 8]

Kenobi hesitated, and Luke sensed that the old man had no wish to talk about this particular matter. Unlike Owen Lars, however, Kenobi was unable to take refuge in a comfortable lie.

Novels have never been a source for canon info. We're talking about the movies.

[DarkLord89 0]

From the novelization....  

"How," he asked slowly, "did my father die?"  

Kenobi hesitated, and Luke sensed that the old man had no wish to talk about this particular matter. Unlike Owen Lars, however, Kenobi was unable to take refuge in a comfortable lie.  

"He was betrayed and murdered," Kenobi declared solemnly, "by a very young Jedi named Darth Vader."  

Neil - confident he can post this here because it's not Prequel related

From Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back (the movie, I don't have the script):

VADER: If you only knew the power of the dark side. Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father.

LUKE: He told me enough. He told me you killed him.

VADER: No, I am your father.

Oh, yes, there's the point of view question, after all...

[DarkLord89 0]

Even the novel for ROTS contradicts the movie, such as Anakin killing Shaak-Ti, which is different from the deleted scene of Grievous killing her (do cut scenes count as canon?)

You'll find your answer here (last paragraph). In the RotS deleted scene page of the DVD making is written that THAT particular scene CAN'T be considered canon, because Shaak Ti appears in the Jedi Council hologram to which Yoda is speaking on Kashyyyk. The final version of Shaak Ti's death is the one featured in the novelization, which does not contradict sources from Labirinth of Evil and Clone Wars vol. II. The deleted scenes is to be considered how things could have been (in fact it's almost an animatic).

[Sandor 797]

What's the point of refering to novels and all? Then Obi-Wan is Owen Lars' brother too!! (ROTJ)

I only take the films to set the rules of the Star Wars universe.

[DarkLord89 0]

I made on order of canon information:

1) The movies, prequel trilogy and original trilogy

2) The adult books (novelizations included)

3) The Young Reader books

4) Comics and videogames

5) The starwars.com databank and fact files, because they have all the information listed above (so they're a quick alternative to all of them)

It was easy for me to identify canon. I am not too severe with the EU books written before the prequels, though. I admit their logical for that particular story, though the primary source are only the movies.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Stefan; I appreciate your questions and contribution to the thread, but to be honest, something tells me that your motivation for asking these questions concerning discontinuity in the Saga have very little to do with you actually wanting to know the answers, but everything with you trying to bring forward things which have been said and discussed all over the Internet for countless times just for the sake of arguing and trying to reinforce your conception that the Prequel Trilogy is flawed.

It pains me that you think I have some hidden motif with my questions.

My intentions, wether you choose to believe it or not are honest.

Like Joe, there is stuff in the prequels that I really like, and I still wish I liked more of it.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Hey Neil, question for you:  I assume (and I apologize if I am wrong about this) that you are someone who criticizes Lucas for only releasing the updated STAR WARS on DVD.  How do you feel about the fact that ST:TMP is only available on DVD in an updated form and not in it's original theatrical version?

Oh...oh...can I?

Neil beliefs since Bob Wise was never able to finish TMP, and the version(s) that were released were basically glorified rough cuts, that they have very little value.

I personally disagree with this.

[Sandor 797]

Neil beliefs since Bob Wise was never able to finish TMP, and the version(s) that were released were basically glorified rough cuts, that they have very little value.

That's exactly how George Lucas felt about the 1977 version of Star Wars.

[Sandor 797]

It pains me that you think I have some hidden motif with my questions.

My intentions, wether you choose to believe it or not are honest.

But the answers to your questions have been all over the Internet for years...

I'll take your word on it though.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

In all honesty; if inconsistencies or illogical moments limit your enjoyment of films than there is little you can watch.

I agree with that.

Usually I'm not that much bothered by an inconsistancy, illogical plot point, or a reflection of a bearded camera man in a background mirror IF the film entertains me enough.

However if they start to stack up, like the definatly do in the prequels it will tend to lesser my appriciation, especially if the films also has other difficulties.

I'm sure Jaws, The Godfather, E.T. and The Wrath Of Khan have plenty of thing that don't add up, but I don't care, i'm to engrossed in the story to care.

[Luke Skywalker 1,796]

Oh, and to the poster named LUKE SKYWALKER, I am a big fan of the entire SW series, I wasn't trying to bash on the prequels with my lengthy post on inconsistencies, I was trying to address a lot of the things that seem to come up when PT haters go on their rants.

:cry: You made me cry... I wasnt refering about you (at all) in my post, i have you in high regard, almost in a shrine, specially prequel-musically-wise since your edition of the TPM score is marvelous.

I hope you were refering to Vosk...

what print year has the ROTJ novelization that tell about owen-kenobi brotherhood?

Mine doesnt. Its pre-SEs.

[Sandor 797]

what print year has the ROTJ novelization that tell about owen-kenobi brotherhood?

I had a really old print of the novel. It said it there. But it *could* have been another book (although I'm pretty sure it was ROTJ)

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

It was also in the screenplay. Obi-Wan's explanation to Luke on Dagobah was much lengthier and included the history of the twins being broken up and that Owen Lars was Obi-Wan's brother.

[Sandor 797]

It was also in the screenplay. Obi-Wan's explanation to Luke on Dagobah was much lengthier and included the history of the twins being broken up and that Owen Lars was Obi-Wan's brother.

Perhaps I read it in the screenplay then. Although I'm sure it was also in the original novel.

[robthehand 3]

Obi-Wan's?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Since this was not used in the film I do not consider any of this to be canon.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

BEN

Your insight serves you well. Bury your feelings deep down, Luke. They  

do you credit.

But they could be made to serve the Emperor.

Luke looks into the distance, trying to comprehend all this.

BEN  (continuing his narrative)

When your father left, he didn't know your mother was pregnant. Your  

mother and I knew he would find out eventually, but we wanted to keep  

you both as safe as possible, for as long as possible.  So I took you  

to live with my brother Owen on Tatooine... and your mother took Leia  

to live as the daughter of Senator Organa, on Alderaan.

Luke turns, and settles near Ben to hear the tale.

BEN  (attempting to give solace with his words)

The Organa household was high-born and politically quite powerful in  

that system. Leia became a princess by virtue of lineage... no one knew  

she'd been adopted, of course. But it was a title without real power,  

since Alderaan had long been a democracy.  Even so, the family  

continued to be politically powerful, and Leia, following in her foster  

father's path, became a senator as well.  That's not all she became, of  

course... she became the leader of her cell in the Alliance against the  

corrupt Empire. And because she had diplomatic immunity, she was a  

vital link for getting information to the Rebel cause.  That's what she  

was doing when her path crossed yours... for her foster parents had  

always told her to contact me on Tatooine, if her troubles became  

desperate.

Luke is overwhelmed by the truth, and is suddenly protective of his  

sister.

LUKE

But you can't let her get involved now, Ben. Vader will destroy her.

BEN

She hasn't been trained in the ways of the Jedi the way you have,  

Luke... but the Force is strong with her, as it is with all of your  

family. There is no avoiding the battle. You must face and destroy  

Vader!

The scene ended here.

Because it was cut, I don't consider it as actual part of the story. Only what is actually on screen is part of it (as such, the story may vary depending on which version you watch).

There was also more exposition earlier in the scene where Ben talked about how Luke was too quick to face Vader. He also pretty much spelled out what the cave sequence in ESB meant:

To be a Jedi, Luke, you must confront and then go beyond the dark side

- the side your father couldn't get past. Impatience is the easiest

door - for you, like your father. Only, your father was seduced by what

he found on the other side of the door, and you have held firm. You're

no longer so reckless now, Luke. You are strong and patient. And now,

you must face Darth Vader again!

[DarkLord89 0]

Since this was not used in the film I do not consider any of this to be canon.

I completely agree with you.

However, this fact is also stated in the starwars.com databank (item "Owen Lars", section "Behind the movies"):

Spin-off material published around the time of Return of the Jedi postulated that Owen Lars was Obi-Wan Kenobi's brother, and the moisture farmer was resentful of his famous sibling's request to care for young Skywalker. This notion made it into print in several sources, starting with the novelization of Jedi, prompting many fan debates when speculating about the events of the prequel trilogy. Episode II sheds more light on Owen's true background and his relation to Luke Skywalker.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Well when Star wars was released in 1977 it was obvious to everyone that Owen was the brother of Luke's father.

[Lurker 5]

Neil beliefs since Bob Wise was never able to finish TMP, and the version(s) that were released were basically glorified rough cuts, that they have very little value.

That's exactly how George Lucas felt about the 1977 version of Star Wars.

The success of Star Wars in every aspect (financial, critical and popular) tends to prove him wrong.

Neil

[DarkLord89 0]

Well when Star Wars was released in 1977 it was obvious to everyone that Owen was the brother of Luke's father.

Well, after many changes, it's now almost established that (Owen is Luke's father's STEP-brother)...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yes, but the relationship is very different.

On another note, would ROTS have benefitted from having more of Dooku and less of General Grievous?

I thought Lee was pretty good in AOTC, and was looking forward to an enlarged role for ROTS.

Lee is precisely the type of actor that can elevate a movie just by his presence on the screen, I wish they used that.