Lost

[Koray Savas 2,251]

And I'm also pretty positive Sayid had his normal accent.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

You mean his normal, character accent or the actor's normal British accent? It was only three words but it sounded like the latter for me, not that I interpreted it as meaning anything other than the actor spluttering the line the best he could and it just kind sounded British.

[fommes 154]

I -finally- saw the season 6 opener, and what can I say but WOW! I had literally avoided all spoilers (apart from the title of the episode), so it was great coming into this fresh. It's one thing to build up expectations so highly, but another to really fulfil them, and from the looks of it, Lost will continue to transcend all expectations. I saw the two different alternate timelines coming; but now I'm wondering about the precise nature of these flashsideways, and that'll be the central question of the season, I guess. Perhaps they're flashforwards instead of flashsideways.

[Olivier 5]

"The water isn't clear".

Durn; how could I misunderstand it so much?

Thanks for correcting me.

[Incanus 5,723]

OK let's talk about the temple.

There's a pool of water there that appears to be able to heal people. It must have been what was used to heal Ben in 1977. However, it appears to somehow turn people into Others, right? Ben was an Other after that, and so was Rousseau's crew.

No, it heals and wipes out recent memory, but does not turn people into Others; they ask to join them, like young Ben did before being shot, or are picked by the Others.

Rousseau's team, on the other hand, was abducted by the Smoke Monster and either driven crazy by him or replaced by it.

As far as we know the Spring indeed heals people and what can be surmised from young Ben's reaction and Sayid's line after he wakes up, wipes out their memory, but also permanently links them to the Others. Unless there is another way to heal people at the Temple.

This is more or less what Richard says when Sawyer and Kate bring wounded Ben to him and he agrees to save his life.

Richard: If I take him, he's not ever be going to be same again.

Kate: What do you mean by that?

Richard: What I mean is that, he'll forget this ever happened and that his innocence will be gone. He'll always be one of us.

This would indicate that the people healed at the Temple are irrevocably changed, become Others in some way, they are changed into those who protect the Island. Another Lost mythology detail that is probably cleared this season with Sayid's resurrection which as per usual to Lost was not exactly an ordinary event or went as planned by the Others who seemed pretty shocked by it.

[Olivier 5]

Richard: What I mean is that, he'll forget this ever happened and that his innocence will be gone. He'll always be one of us.

Oh right, how could I forget this?! Thanks, Icanus!

[Datameister 2,065]

I'll be this has already been suggested here or elsewhere, but...I wonder if the destruction of the statue of Tawaret had to do with all the difficulties pregnant women have had on the Island. Tawaret was associated with fertility...

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I believe Team Darlton has mentioned the statue was already destroyed when Ben came to the island. Meaning it was also already destroyed when Ethan was born.

[Jay 37,445]

Yea Ben said on-screen that the statue was already reduced to a foot when he arrived (in 1973)... Darlton just confirmed that he wasn't lying.

I've been thinking about that statue. The conclusion that I came to was that the island has ALWAYS had fertility problems, so the Egyptians (that I believe to be the first people to arrive there) built the Tawaret statue to try to appease the gods and allow them to have children on the island. I assumed that it didn't work, however. It was only ever just a statue.

I had forgotten until you just mentioned it that Ethan was born on the island, though. Who else has been born there?

[Datameister 2,065]

Well, we don't know with 100% certainty that Ethan was conceived on the Island, but he probably was.

Also, I had a really funny/awkward moment earlier today. So, I was sitting in a C++ programming lecture. My professor loooooves Star Wars and is sure to include numerous photos and references in every slide. Today, one of the images was a piece of clip art showing books that he'd given titles to. Most of them were Star Wars references, but one was Watership Down. Having just been watching some of the S1 features yesterday, my mind of course immediately flashed to Sawyer reading Boone's copy. After class, I asked the professor, "So, are you a Lost fan?" (He seemed to have the right disposition, and the folks who make Lost love Star Wars...) He gave me a confused look and told me he'd watched a bit in the first few seasons but that was it. I then asked him why he included Watership Down with all the Star Wars, and he just said flatly, "I like the book." I kinda walked away awkwardly.

[fommes 154]

I bet you wanted to time-travel away from that moment, yeah

[Datameister 2,065]

I would have settled for a donkey wheel...

[Olivier 5]

Well, we don't know with 100% certainty that Ethan was conceived on the Island, but he probably was.

Also, I had a really funny/awkward moment earlier today. So, I was sitting in a C++ programming lecture. My professor loooooves Star Wars and is sure to include numerous photos and references in every slide. Today, one of the images was a piece of clip art showing books that he'd given titles to. Most of them were Star Wars references, but one was Watership Down. Having just been watching some of the S1 features yesterday, my mind of course immediately flashed to Sawyer reading Boone's copy. After class, I asked the professor, "So, are you a Lost fan?" (He seemed to have the right disposition, and the folks who make Lost love Star Wars...) He gave me a confused look and told me he'd watched a bit in the first few seasons but that was it. I then asked him why he included Watership Down with all the Star Wars, and he just said flatly, "I like the book." I kinda walked away awkwardly.

I have not read this book, but about it, since reading about Lost. Didn't you explicit him the connection? He might have been interested in revisiting the series, knowing it. You could print out a not too spoilerish text from Lostpedia on the subject and give it to him so that he may understand why you asked.

[Datameister 2,065]

Well, Watership Down was only mentioned in one of the episodes he would have seen, so I doubt it'd be enough to convince him.

[Red 75]

I've been thinking about that statue. The conclusion that I came to was that the island has ALWAYS had fertility problems, so the Egyptians (that I believe to be the first people to arrive there) built the Tawaret statue to try to appease the gods and allow them to have children on the island. I assumed that it didn't work, however. It was only ever just a statue.

I wonder myself what connection the statue has to Jacob. He does live under the thing, after all.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Not to mention there is a tunnel system of some sort underneath. Didn't the Smoke come out from some hallway in the back?

[Datameister 2,065]

No, the monster just came from the same passageway everyone else came in through. There's only one way in or out, at least that we've seen.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Well then, wouldn't Richard and everyone else have seen the Smoke go in? He was surprised when he learned that the Man In Black was Locke.

[Datameister 2,065]

No, Locke just disappeared from behind the column and then appeared in the hallway. Not sure exactly why they did it that way, but it's the same corridor.

[fommes 154]

He just wanted to do that sound mix show trick, where you go through some smoke to change into your costume.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I thought the scene was perfect. The way they did it worked, it's just that all this time we've never known where the Smoke would be at any given point. He obviously has to come from somewhere (most likely that room under The Temple), and the way they shot it made it seem like it came from some other room/outside.

[Incanus 5,723]

It was an awesome moment of revelation when Man in Black was first shot, actually looking slightly surprised, then ducked behind a pilar and vanished, leaving an obviously flattened bullet behind, like it had hit something hard and then Smokey appeared. You could put two and two together at that moment because it was just too much of coincidence the Black Smoke appears when Man in Black disappears. And of course the final confirmation was the Man in Black saying: I'm sorry you had to see me like that." Heavy handed exposition handled with care and certain glee I think, finally confirming one of the theories surrounding one of the biggest unsolved mysteries of the Island. And indeed Smokey appears in the hallway which leads outside the Statue, the same route Ben and Man in Black came in. And of course for a creature who can vanish into thin air and appear as a cloud of smoke, the leap from behind the statue to the hallway is not a big leap at all. And I have to admit, Smokey coming from the hallway, first the usual chattering sounds and then the actual Monster makes for a great entrance.

[Jay 37,445]

It was an awesome scene

[Datameister 2,065]

Agreed. I geeked out so hard when Locke said, "I'm sorry you had to see me like that."

[crocodile 8,033]

I liked the one when UnLocke is talking about Locke. So depressing for a fan of the character.

Karol

[Datameister 2,065]

I know...that was such a crushing (but good!) scene. I especially loved how he kept leaning in and out of the light - a living demonstration of the ongoing "black and white" theme.

EDIT: And boy, is Terry O'Quinn pulling out some great mean faces for this!

[Incanus 5,723]

I know...that was such a crushing (but good!) scene. I especially loved how he kept leaning in and out of the light - a living demonstration of the ongoing "black and white" theme.

EDIT: And boy, is Terry O'Quinn pulling out some great mean faces for this!

As I said in a previous post, I loved that scene because it was made all the more crushing by the fact that it was fake Locke so coldly ridiculing the actual Locke. It is so much more effective and cruel to see him and hear him berate the dead man in his guise as if to mock him.

[crocodile 8,033]

You know what I love most about Lost? It's how it avoids clear-cut answers. There's no right or wrong on this show. You see, John Locke might be dead, but in a way, he got exactly what he wanted: greater destiny. There is always this ironic "yes and no" answer to every question, almost mirroring the black and white motif. And that's why I think Man in Black is neither good or bad.

Karol

[Datameister 2,065]

I agree with the above two posts, for sure. Well, except for the part about the man in black being neither good nor bad - he's just bad.

[crocodile 8,033]

But he didn't do anything wrong... I think we're should believe that's the case. Ot that they're both bad. You have to remember most of the characters on the show might be good, but sometimes they do commit great atrocities. Like Sayid, or Sawyer, or Kate, or even Sun. I think that's one of the main themes of the show. The other thing is there is a great deal of red herrings. The actors (while shooting ep13) don't know what's going on.

Karol

[Datameister 2,065]

Didn't do anything wrong? Well, he spent decades manipulating a man to murder another in cold blood, for starters.

[crocodile 8,033]

Maybe he was very, very, very bad man. We don't know anything about Jacob. Besides, it's no different from most of the main characters.

Karol

[Datameister 2,065]

I never said he was different from the main characters, just that he was bad. Let's not forget the things he did in smoke monster form - killed the pilot, killed Eko, killed Nadine, chased numerous other characters, etc. This guy was the show's first big mystery and first big antagonist, all the way back in "Pilot, Part 1."

[crocodile 8,033]

I understand, but then "redemption" is the most tossed around words when it comes to the final season. I like to believe that, because I agree on most of what he's saying. Like when he explained to Ben why he should kill Jacob. Makes complete sense to me.

Karol

[Incanus 5,723]

I never said he was different from the main characters, just that he was bad. Let's not forget the things he did in smoke monster form - killed the pilot, killed Eko, killed Nadine, chased numerous other characters, etc. This guy was the show's first big mystery and first big antagonist, all the way back in "Pilot, Part 1."

It is of course worth noting this Monster must have gone through a long development in the show itself, from vague threat to the main villain. As the show evolved the Monster has evolved. The writers have done a good job with the character, using it along the way, hinting at some things, leaving the door open for many possibilities.

As the whole story thusfar goes, in retrospect, the Monster seems to have tested individuals for his own purposes, weighing how easily they can be manipulated and are they useful. We not know his createria of elimination because the entity is clearly near omniscient, describing to us even Locke's last thoughts in detail. So perhaps his ideas about good and evil are beyond human as well. His final motives are to be revealed, his "friendship" with Jacob unexplained.

[fommes 154]

Wait, who's Nadine again? I just had a Twin Peaks flashback.

[Jay 37,445]

It wouldn't surprise me if one of the twists later on this season is that Jacob is the bad guy and the Man In Black is the good guy

[crocodile 8,033]

That would be typical of the show. It's worth pointing out how they introduce things in the show, like The Others for example. They were dangerous throughout the first two seasons. But then we learned they live in these cozy houses and have book clubs. So it might be the same with the smoke monster.

Karol

[Datameister 2,065]

Oh, it's possible they'll turn it around and have Jacob be the bad guy. That's what I was expecting when Locke said he was going to kill Jacob. I'm just saying that in terms of real-world morality, all the facts point toward the man in black being a bad guy, regardless of who else is.

[crocodile 8,033]

If you put it in these terms - yes. Like the famous promo said: All of them are guilty.

Karol

[fommes 154]

I think it's more likely that Jacob is the good guy with a certain project which unfortunately needs sacrifices (much like Jack's plans are full of good intentions, but they always fail and have victims in the end), while MiB is the bad guy, with a redeeming goal (obviously, he really wants to go home).

Home, by the way, may well be on the island itself: perhaps it's the temple.

[Jay 37,445]

He was just under the temple a few episodes ago when he judged Ben.

Also the temple dwellers didn't put up the protective ash until after they learned Jacob was dead last week

[crocodile 8,033]

Which makes it weird that no one noticed them going there in the season 5. The Others went there waaaay back in season 3.

Karol - who would be a tad disappointed if the whole show could be boiled down to a simple good-evil battle (so lame)

[fommes 154]

Yeah, home is probably not the temple, unless Jacob kept him out in one way or another. But did they go underneath the actual temple in the season 5 finale, or was that in the tunnels at the temple wall? Wasn't all that clear...

[Jay 37,445]

If a good vs evil battle is what brought a lot of our characters TO the island, that doesn't change the development the characters went through there and the choices we've seen them make

[Incanus 5,723]

Karol - who would be a tad disappointed if the whole show could be boiled down to a simple good-evil battle (so lame)

Well the Good vs Evil is one of the main themes of the series, classical universal theme, but this series has never provided just straightforward answers, the characters as you say have never been clear cut good or evil, all shades of grey exist. The series goes to show this by letting us see the other perspective. But then there is a feel of what we could call universally acknowledged good and evil that do battle in this series. It certainly forms one central ring in this story. But I am sure it is but one layer in all this.

[crocodile 8,033]

Well, yes. That's what I'm hoping for: that it's not that simple. I witnessed one series finale that tries to wrap thing way too easily and it wasn't good at all.

Karol

[Red 75]

Well, yes. That's what I'm hoping for: that it's not that simple. I witnessed one series finale that tries to wrap thing way too easily and it wasn't good at all.

Karol

One thing I'm fairly certain is that it won't be that simple, because things rarely ever are in Lost. Likewise I don't think the Jacob/Man in Black conflict is so simplistic, neither of them seem exclusively good or evil.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Holy. Shit.

[Desplat13 1]

Finally caught up on Lost. I started watching it, from the first season, toward the end of last year, and was able to catch up for the second week of the final season. I kept looking at this thread, but restraining myself, knowing it must be full of spoilers, but now I have been reading through old posts, and laughing at people's speculation of what was going on, and what would happen. So many wrong theories floating around. It's what Lost is all about, and kinda fun to read.

Anyways, just watched the new episode, and I must say, the cliff-hangers are WAY more effective when you don't have the next episode right at your finger-tips Overall, I thought it was a very good episode. When I first heard that they were going to try to make season 6 more like season 1, I was very excited, because that is by far my favorite season so far. When I saw LA X 1 and 2, I was a little disappointed, as I realized what exactly they meant by like it, and I was hoping for something a little more character and suspense driven and less sci-fi. But, after watching this one, and seeing a little further progression with the new form of 'flash back', I am starting to get very excited again. This season could, indeed, raise the show back to the level of the first season, though in a different way.

So anyways, I'm very happy to be all caught up and able to take part in the Lost discussions.