NEW Star Wars Soundtrack Box in 2007

[Ollie 1,059]

Actually, skyy38 is right. There are several cues misplaced on the ESB and RotJ SEs (apparently, nobody thought we'd notice?). These include "The Probe Droid," an alternative section of "Carbon Freeze," (it's simply mixed in and follows the film version), the alternative "Han Solo Returns" is mixed into "Luke Confronts Jabba," the film version of "The Emperor Arrives" is pasted before "The Lightsaber," and the alternative version of "Funeral Pyre for a Jedi," follows the film version.

Anything I missed?

The film version of "The Emperor Arrives" right before "The Lightsaber" is the only thing that really distracts me. And man, does it distract the hell out of me. Couldn't the alternates have all waited until the end of the discs???

Did you ever stop and think there may have been footage there when Williams spotted the film and that he wrote the music to fit and then the scene was dropped? Maybe they're not alternates but music intended for scenes that were cut.

I don't recall the liner notes mentioning those cues being alternates.

[King Mark 3,631]

I think it was meant for The Emperor Arrives,the cue doesn't flow well at all into The Light Saber.

K.M.

[Ollie 1,059]

If it were an alternate I would think it would have been mentioned in the liner notes.

If I'm mistaken and somebody knows more please feel free to correct me. 8O

[Kendal_Ozzel 36]

I thought the liner notes did mention it, actually, but I'm too lazy to go doublecheck at the moment.

[Trent B 337]

By the way let's ask Demodex this... has he even heard the actual intended edition? Well at least from someone here who has put together the version?

I would not be surprised if he hasn't...

[Henry B 50]

If it were an alternate I would think it would have been mentioned in the liner notes.

If I'm mistaken and somebody knows more please feel free to correct me. 8O

Mark, read my post about misplaced alternative cues. Of all of those, only "The Probe Droid" is mentioned in the liner notes. I know these are alternative cues based on what are apparently informed sources about the OT, such as the "ESB Cue Sheet."

[GoodMusician 56]

well, wasn't most of the gungan retreat scene added on... hence why it looks so bad...

As far as Episode I, I think there could still be some unheard music.

There are moments in the UE where I couldswear the music must have been edited together, but it's really hard to say.

Also, some of the alternate pieces we've found could, quite possibly, be from completely alternate tracks rather than just alternate endings and such...

There are still two cues that are unknown.

1) a cello tremmelo (cresendo and decresendo)

and

2) What sounds like the moment of Darth Mauls death but much shorter (perhaps an alternate?)

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Then there could also have been music written for scenes that were cut after they were scored (and didn't find their way onto the DVD).

[JoeinAR 1,949]

If there is a God above, please don't let any more "music" from AOTC be released, as for Revenge of the Sith, any additional music is found on the original Star Wars album.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Here's an idea, Joe.

If a complete AotC is released, which many of us would really like to hear, how about you just not buy it?

[Demodex 557]

I'm just curious, do people actually routinely listen to the alternative tracks? For example, the alternate versions of "Binary Sunset" and "Sail Barge Assault" on the SE's. I've listened to them once, but not since I bought the discs 9 years ago. I guess I'm more concerned about the music that's actually in the films. That's why I don't care about the edits and stuff that's supposedly missing from TPM:UE. The music in the film sounds great and that's what I want on CD.

[Trent B 337]

Here's an idea, Joe.

If a complete AotC is released, which many of us would really like to hear, how about you just not buy it?

LOL

No kidding...

Joe,

There are obviously a lot of other people who do want the unreleased music from AOTC and ROTS (myself included). Don't piss in other people's cereal just beacuse you hate AOTC's and ROTS's music. We all know by now that you hate both scores, so you don't have to keep repeating yourself like a damn broken record in every Prequel thread...

[John Crichton 4]

I'm just curious, do people actually routinely listen to the alternative tracks?

Personally it depends on how much I like the cue. I only listen to the Binary Sunset alternate on occasional listens, but I listen to the alternate Sail Barge Assault every time because I really like it, maybe even more than the film version now.

[Henry B 50]

1) a cello tremmelo (cresendo and decresendo)

Check out the film version of "Probe Droid" (the segment where we see Darth Maul's probe droid snooping through Mos Espa). It's tracked from "The Arrival of Darth Maul," but listen carefully.

I'm just curious, do people actually routinely listen to the alternative tracks?

Sometimes I replace "film versions" with alternative tracks I feel are better. Specifically, "Sail Barge Assault" and "Leia's News." OK, so I think the reprise of Parade of the Ewoks has a big sentimental payoff. Lame?

[GoodMusician 56]

I did recently hear it there, but what I found is a clean version... without percussion and without vocals... it's just...the cello... you can hear people shifting in their seats and such too...

[Henry B 50]

Yeah, I know. It's in the TPM computer game.

We're kind of steering this thread off-topic, though.

[ymenard 54]

I'm just curious, do people actually routinely listen to the alternative tracks?  For example, the alternate versions of "Binary Sunset" and "Sail Barge Assault" on the SE's.   I've listened to them once, but not since I bought the discs 9 years ago.   I guess I'm more concerned about the music that's actually in the films.  That's why I don't care about the edits and stuff that's supposedly missing from TPM:UE.  The music in the film sounds great and that's what I want on CD.

See this is where you are different from the rest of us freaks at jwfan.net

We consider anything John has wrote as part of his ensemble oeuvre, and we will do anything to listen to it the way John wrote it. Not the way somebody took his music and decided the way we should hear it. We want to listen to what he composed and/or orchestrated, it's all we want. How it is represented in the movie, is related to the movie, not my listening experience. So he clearly took time to write complete passages of Sail Barge Assault, orchestrated and recorded it. For me, it's part of his oeuvre, it's as important as anything else he's wrote.

The TPM:UE will live forever as one of the worse soundtrack release ever considering the quality of John's score for TPM.

[GoodMusician 56]

You have to understand though, "the way John wrote it" is not how he intended it.

For one, there are many things that are changed... things layered... vocals added and what not.

TPM for example had the choir whispering "Korah Rhatamba" in certain sections. They were a latter additon, but were no less something that John intended at least for some moments.

Composing is fluid and changes very often. I have a PDF of the conductors score to Jurassic Park. The track on the album known as "Theme from Jurassic Park" that starts out with the solor horn... that was a latter addition...something plopped together during the recording sessions....

Things change.

And then also, as I said earlier, John Williams recordings tracks usually about two minutes at time... but it doesn't mean they're meant to be listened to that way. The OT SE's are presented pretty close to how they are intended to be listend to... not with "clean endings," but with the actual flow between tracks and such...

The problem is that there is no 100% satisfactory way to present the music without there being a problem.

You seperate the tracks, then you get longer and larger CD's... which in turn cost more and also diminishes the overall flow of what the intention of John Williams was.

You don't seperate the tracks, and people complain that they don't have clean endings.

You present it the way that it was re-worked and made for the film, and people complain that it isn't complete.

You have to also realize, John Williams isn't dumb.He KNOWS that his music will be taken apart and changed. I don't know of any of his scores that hasn't been edited or changed in Some way shape or fashion.... or that didn't use an alternate recording of a track.

So, it would be blind of us to not acknowledge that these are scores for FILM...and even as much as we enjoy listening to them seperate from the film... the bottom line is that they are a piece of art meant for one purpose... to exagerate the film, bringin the audience into the emotions of the artwork.

As has been said, "A film is never finished, only abandoned" or even "Every director works on the film until it is literally pryed from their hands and they simply must accept they can do no more."

John Williams music, being a part of this process, is subject to this process...

I think we just need to accept that there is no real way to present these scores short of creating a massive box set (like Goodbye Mr. Chips) for almost every film...something no studio will willing do until many years from now.

This release, more than likely, will be a repackage of all 6 OSTs/SE's.

My point in allthis is we shouldn't be so adament to pass judgement on these people or what they've done or the decisions they've made in the releases. The UE was released to be more of a mass public thing. If you released a GoodBye My. Chips stlye box set for TPM (as would be needed witht he amount of material there is), people would be afraid to buy it... and sales would have been worse because the mass public wouldn't be interested. They want to be able to imagine the film in their head as they listen to the music... if they hear stuff they don't recognize, they will get confused and won't know where its from and will probably skip the track (which in the end, prooves that the effort to present it in a complete fashion isnearly pointless).

So, lets not be so adament or cavalier about passing judgement on the releases. Working on TPM score as I have been has more than prooved to me how DIFFICULT it is.

Do I present the tracks in order, and then put all the alterantes on a sepearte disk? Or do I present them in chronological order with the most of the main alternates right after the track they are alternates for.

If I put them on another disk then people willbe like act like I'm McDonalds and willthink they can have it "their way" and ask for only disk 1 and 2...but not disk 3... Well, I put a lot of effort into doing all the alterantes, so the least people can do is listen to them..

But if I put it next to their originals, they will complain that they have to hit the "skip button."

And then, do I present it with clean endings... OR as John Williams intended the music to be listened to?

There are soo many variables to take into account that it's mind blowing how much work I've had to do to present a decent, listenable score.

It's hard really...I mean, you can't put all 6 versions of Duel of the Fates one after another... no one will want to listen to them. By the time they get to the third one they'll just be sick of it and skip the rest...

So, in doing this, I've found a lot of respect for what these people ahve to do...and go through in order to present the best quality listening experience possible... and its really hard... and not everyone willbe happy with what I release...similar to how not everyone was happy with most of the releases... you can't please everyone...

So, I'm just saying... we need to be less dramatic about our anger and more understanding of what exactly goes into this process...and how genuinely difficult it is for people to set these up...

[robthehand 3]

OK. They should be as John intended them to be heard in the film (only without the dialogue and SFX ).

[ymenard 54]

If there are changes, it's still the way he wrote it, it's his score he can do whatever he wants. The music editor who chops it is _not_ the way he wrote it.

Like I wrote, composed and/or orchestrated. We know that the score is cut in small portions, we know things change, but in the end there is an assembly in the orchestral writings, parts are together. At the end of the sessions, it's where the score is still "virgin". If there are additions, then so be it, Johnny wrote it and it's now a part of his oeuvre. After that, it will never be tweaked again in writing, or orchestration. Everything after that, is some sound editor chopping it. Look at the FOTR complete recording, or ANH:SE, it's the way to go. It's not 100% perfect but it will never be. The TPM:UE is only like 5% perfect eh. All you've said GoodMusician stays true to that.

[Ollie 1,059]

If the prequels scores are to be released complete I would like them to be presented as the original RCA Special Editions were, with the exception of the sound quality.

[robthehand 3]

I'd take a bad-sounding "intended" version of a great-sounding UE-style release any day. Not that there's any real excuse for the prequel scores to sound bad, of course.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

I'm just curious, do people actually routinely listen to the alternative tracks?  For example, the alternate versions of "Binary Sunset" and "Sail Barge Assault" on the SE's.   I've listened to them once, but not since I bought the discs 9 years ago.   I guess I'm more concerned about the music that's actually in the films.  That's why I don't care about the edits and stuff that's supposedly missing from TPM:UE.  The music in the film sounds great and that's what I want on CD.

The alternate "Binary Sunset" is an absolutely awesome cue!

[ymenard 54]

I also wonder why you think that business-wise it's not plausible to have "complete" scores. If something, it was proven again and again that complete scores of John Williams are good sellers (Original trilogy SE's, CEoT3K, Jaws, Superman, Raiders, etc.), they represent what Johnny composed/orchestrated and not what a music editor thought was the best on screen. Look at the FOTR complete score, it's on multiple CD and a DVD-A, it sold very well.

A score is not diminish by having the complete oeuvre of somebody, au contraire it respect the composer even more by understanding that the quality of his writing is good enough for some people to really appreciate it. We're the freaks here who demand everything, we wouldn't want anything else. There will always be a CD version with lesser score that flows better, is shorter to appeal to the lesser freaks than us

[GoodMusician 56]

Worth mentioning is that you listed not a single Complete score relese among them.

[robthehand 3]

Jaws and Star Wars are complete (I think), and Superman is missing only source music.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

1) a cello tremmelo (cresendo and decresendo)

Check out the film version of "Probe Droid" (the segment where we see Darth Maul's probe droid snooping through Mos Espa). It's tracked from "The Arrival of Darth Maul," but listen carefully.

I think this could be an alternate for the finale of the Arrival of darth maul when the three probe droids go to mos espa just before the arena. It sounds similar.

I think there is a version of the Arrival of darth maul in TPM that has part of this music into it. Or maybe i got it from the UE, which seems to be what Cerrabore suggested

(i made a cue with, i think, the non chorus wispers version of arrival of darth mau l from TPM, this bit from the UE and the cello finale.)

[GoodMusician 56]

Jaws isn't complete... Where's the alternate versions from the original release such as 'Promenade' etc.

Star Wars is said to be complete.... but that's probably the only one...

Close Encounters isn't complete.

Raiders isn't

Even the LOTR's arn't complete. For someone who wants it exactly as written, you sure do love the 4 disk LOTR sets... where they almost completely track out the choir in several tracks...

Who's decision is that? And why don't they include the original mix of the tracks?

[robthehand 3]

Jaws isn't complete... Where's the alternate versions from the original release such as 'Promenade' etc.

They were re-recordings made specifically for the album, nothing directly to do with the film score - they're not really alternates, as they were never intended to be heard in the film.

[GoodMusician 56]

But still worth inclusion... Look at a set like Goodbye Mr. CHips or any of JW older scores that they're re-released as of late... they included the album recordings... I consider them to be valid parts of the score. John Williams wrote them... they're like concert versions writen and recorded by JW

I guess my point in saying they wouldn't sell well is because historically speaking, few have... THe star Wars SE's did because they accompanied a sudden influx of star wars material (the DVD's, the films in theatres and what not)...

I personally would buy it and I know most people here would... but what I mean is that they probably don't think that it's a large enough audience and that it would be best to try and appeal tothe masses...

[ymenard 54]

What I've listed are scores released as "Complete", in that they satisfy most of us JW freaks. It's the _direction_ we would like soundtracks to be done. TPM:UE wasn't the direction we wanted. They represent what I've said... which is a soundtrack where we hear compositions as Johnny intended during his writing and his orchestration. Not how a sound editor chopped it after during sound editing. If all of Johnny's scores were re-released that way in expanded form, complains would be none except for the sake of complete-completeness. Not the complains we had with the TPM:UE.

[GoodMusician 56]

I guess the difference between me and most people here is I respect the creative decisions made by these people and awknowledge how genuingely difficult it is to present something that will appease to everyone...

but we digress... I suppose the topic should be maintained...

My only hope is that the release--if there ends up being one--includes more music from (atleast) Episode II... Episode I and III we've managed to recover most things... but II remains mostly unheard and unreleased.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

Even the LOTR's arn't complete. For someone who wants it exactly as written, you sure do love the 4 disk LOTR sets... where they almost completely track out the choir in several tracks...

Who's decision is that? And why don't they include the original mix of the tracks?

Firstly, having the choir mixed lower doesn't go against "exactly as written", just against "exactly as initially mixed".

And the other question has already been answered several times when the set was released, it was an artistic decfision by Shore to have the choir more integrated in the whole orchestral sound rather than prominently put on top of it.

[GoodMusician 56]

It sounds more like they were trying to remove the choir--unsucessfully--than downplay them imo

but back on topic...

[ymenard 54]

I guess the difference between me and most people here is I respect the creative decisions made by these people and awknowledge how genuingely difficult it is to present something that will appease to everyone...

Oh yeah I agree with you on that, creative decisions made during the orchestration period is fine. If there is horn passage, or a choir added (like in TPM) well it's a music decision and it's up to us to hear it because it's part of Johnny's oeuvre. I've written oeuvre often in this thread because we admire him and we would love to listen to the most stuff possible.

It's during sound editing, where it's not music decision, it's a cinematic decision, I don't want this when I listen to it! It's not part of Johnny's oeuvre, it's part of the director's oeuvre.

Business-wise it's also more pleasing than the TPM:UE (a failure in large part because of the bad word-of-mouth). It's why the FOTR complete score is selling well.

[Ollie 1,059]

I listen to alternate cues. They're part of the CD so naturally they'll get playing time.

I'm kinda wondering if some of you really don't understand the difference between the TPM Ultimate Disaster and expanded/complete scores that are done right, like the RCA Special Editions, LOTR, Superman, Jaws etc etc.

[Romão 2,274]

TPM must be the only "bad" JW expanded release.

[Ollie 1,059]

Yes if you don't count the sound or the order of the cues.

[King Mark 3,631]

We NEED some great JWnews.Expanded RotS and AotC would be,as opposed to lame JWnews(Diamond Head LP released on c.d.!).

K.M.

[robthehand 3]

What's so lame about the Diamond Head release?

[King Mark 3,631]

As far as getting a new JWrelease,it's lame,period.

K.M.Who has listened to a crd of Diamond Head once.

[robthehand 3]

You didn't answer why it is lame. It's a previously unreleased-on-CD JW score, that might not be to your tastes, btu that's hardly a reason to condemn it as a lame release, is it?

[GoodMusician 56]

:;cough cough:: private message/not on topic ::cough cough::

Sorry... I took my cousin around town yesturday and he was ill...I seemingly have caught a bad cough... ;-)

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I guess the difference between me and most people here is I respect the creative decisions made by these people and awknowledge how genuingely difficult it is to present something that will appease to everyone...

Oh yeah I agree with you on that, creative decisions made during the orchestration period is fine. If there is horn passage, or a choir added (like in TPM) well it's a music decision and it's up to us to hear it because it's part of Johnny's oeuvre. I've written oeuvre often in this thread because we admire him and we would love to listen to the most stuff possible.

It's during sound editing, where it's not music decision, it's a cinematic decision, I don't want this when I listen to it! It's not part of Johnny's oeuvre, it's part of the director's oeuvre.

But of course there's also that whole grey area where a composer might record several versions for the director to choose for, or record overdubs that end up in other places and might work quite nicely (like the TPM "Korah Rahtahma" chants and the RotS war drums).

[GoodMusician 56]

Precicely.

When I get to Episode IIIon my complete edits, Track 1 will be Fox Fanfare, track 2 will be "Star Wars" as from TPM, track 3 will be about 30 seconds of the clean war drums, and track 4 will be Boys go to Battle or whatever that first part of that is called... that preservees everything, but still removes the flow of the tracks (not to say the film edit of the flow is thar great but you get my point).

Its hard to say exactly what John Williams had his hand in and what he didn't... especially from our point of view.

From what I've seen, he's almost always remained practically integral to the relese of any score he's done...

I'm not sure about re-releases or things fo that nature...but usually the original releases he's quite involved in... Its hard to say how long he stays on with the editing process in films... I don't know if there are even any interviews where he speaks to this...

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I seem to recall reports that Williams usually moves on to the next score once he's done recording. He's not very involved, despite the big "Album Produced by" credits (heck, even TPM: UE had that on the back). Sometimes he does get involved, though. According to the Jaws CE liner notes, the cues were rearranged in the order they appeared on the CD by Williams' request.

As for the film itself, I think he lets the music editor/supervisor (I forgot the title; it's usually Kenny Wannberg, anyway) handle it after the score's been recorded.

[Henry B 50]

When I get to Episode IIIon my complete edits, Track 1 will be Fox Fanfare, track 2 will be "Star Wars" as from TPM, track 3 will be about 30 seconds of the clean war drums, and track 4 will be Boys go to Battle or whatever that first part of that is called... that preservees everything, but still removes the flow of the tracks (not to say the film edit of the flow is thar great but you get my point).

Its hard to say exactly what John Williams had his hand in  and what he didn't... especially from our point of view.

My gut feeling tells me Williams had nothing to do with the "remixes" in Sith. He recorded the taiko drum pulse for "They're Coming Around" (also mixed marginally into "Boys into Battle"), and nothing more. If you've heard the remixes of "Enter Lord Vader" and "Anakin vs. Obi-Wan" isolated (some of this shows up in Battlefront II), you might observe that the drums sound artificial because of their obscene volume in relation to the rest of the music, not to mention their seeming lack of reverb.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I agree. But those versions exist, and people who liked them in the film may want to hear them on album. Now, if you're assembling a complete score release, what do you do?

[Olivier 5]

A splendid thing to do would be to release the scores the the way they are doing for TLotR: on 2 CDs, plus on one 5.1 DVD.

The DVD that came with Star Wars, Episode III: revenge of the Sith is great for watching, because the sound is great, the image & colors are splendid throughout (original trilogy included), and the clips are very well edited-- but if you only listen to the audio track on its own, the dialogue and effects quite ruin the experience.

[John Crichton 4]

Williams getting a producer credit on releases like the UE are probably there for nothing more than legal reasons.