The Hobbit Film Trilogy Thread

[Frosty 0]

@ Frosty

I'm really tired of leading pretentious discussions about the quality of Shore's epic, so let's just call it a day. As long as your so-called "silent majority" keeps their traps shut, I'll be happy.

You whiney maggots who think that the sun rises in and falls in Shore's pants ought to open their ears!

There! I'm done...

[TheTennisBallKid 17]

Christopher Lee's voice would be interesting as Smaug, if he is still around when they get to filming it.

Christopher Lee would be even more interesting as Saruman, as a member of the White Council.

ttbk

[Jacck 23]

Regarding Shore, all I can say is that whenever one mentions film scores to 90% of people, they seem to either mention Pirates of the Carribean (MV), or LOTR... I think the real reason behind the Zimmer and Shore "hating" comes from the people who understand and appreciate a piece of music from a deeper musical point of view. I don't mean this to sound patronising towards people who do like Shore or Zimmer, this is just my opinion - hardily fact.

MV scores and Shore scores (in my opinion) are simple, in-your-face, and very obvious. When a film is treated with such a score, it naturally gains attention from people who wouldn't normally notice scores in film. In my opinion, the LOTR scores are mostly very simple, boring, dull, and in-your-face. Quite frankly, in some of the places in the LOTR scores, I find the orchestration to be muddy and un-listenable.

The things I like about Williams (amongst others) are the genius writing - the ostinati and counter-melodies that are so complex and intricate that you wonder how any man on earth could write such a thing. The kind of things that exist in every single Williams cue that most of us just seem to not hear. Most people seem to just hear a melody and a rhythm, and that's it. I hate to sound patronising again, but some people just seem blind as to what makes a piece of music brilliant.

Of course, the other side of the argument is that a film score should be obvious, it should describe an emotion , and that's it. Although, I believe that when you have such colour, perfect sense of harmony and great melodic writing as all Williams scores have, the audience somehow automatically feels comfortable and entertained by the exciting colourfulness of the music.

I somehow always seem to fail to describe my point well enough in writing. Perhaps I should stop trying to describe music in writing? Yes, that's what I'll do! I guess this is a little off-topic as well. Oh well!

[Frosty 0]

Regarding Shore, all I can say is that whenever one mentions film scores to 90% of people, they seem to either mention Pirates of the Carribean (MV), or LOTR... I think the real reason behind the Zimmer and Shore "hating" comes from the people who understand and appreciate a piece of music from a deeper musical point of view. I don't mean this to sound patronising towards people who do like Shore or Zimmer, this is just my opinion - hardily fact.

MV scores and Shore scores (in my opinion) are simple, in-your-face, and very obvious. When a film is treated with such a score, it naturally gains attention from people who wouldn't normally notice scores in film. In my opinion, the LOTR scores are mostly very simple, boring, dull, and in-your-face. Quite frankly, in some of the places in the LOTR scores, I find the orchestration to be muddy and un-listenable.

The things I like about Williams (amongst others) are the genius writing - the ostinati and counter-melodies that are so complex and intricate that you wonder how any man on earth could write such a thing. The kind of things that exist in every single Williams cue that most of us just seem to not hear. Most people seem to just hear a melody and a rhythm, and that's it. I hate to sound patronising again, but some people just seem blind as to what makes a piece of music brilliant.

Of course, the other side of the argument is that a film score should be obvious, it should describe an emotion , and that's it. Although, I believe that when you have such colour, perfect sense of harmony and great melodic writing as all Williams scores have, the audience somehow automatically feels comfortable and entertained by the exciting colourfulness of the music.

I somehow always seem to fail to describe my point well enough in writing. Perhaps I should stop trying to describe music in writing? Yes, that's what I'll do! I guess this is a little off-topic as well. Oh well!

Very succint and well put. I never made any comparisons, but I like how you described it. Kudos!!!

[Marian Schedenig 8,199]

The Blessed and Lee suggestions a very nice. However, I never imagined Smaug as the basso profundo type. I like the Hopkins idea. Or perhaps Jeremy Irons.

As has been said before, the LOTR scores are anything but simple. Their complexities may lie in other areas than they do with Williams' scores (this I don't deny), but they are there. The thematic writing, the relations between themes and their use, can be best compared to Wagner's Ring des Nibelungen (of course, this also has been said before), and I dare say even Williams has never written anything as complex in that regard.

[Frosty 0]

Would it have to be a big name actor?

F. Murray Abraham?

Michael Ironside?

Liam Neeson?

[Quintus 5,399]

Yes Michael Ironside is a great suggestion, minus the american accent of course. But a little tution could solve that.

Liam Neeson's voice on the otherhand didn't carry enough heft as Aslan the lion. But perhaps with a little digital manipulation it could work. Whoever does the voice will probably have it tweaked anyway, as with Treebeard.

[Sandor 797]

In my opinion, the LOTR scores are mostly very simple, boring, dull, and in-your-face.

Well, there is no debating taste, but I disagree about, uhm, 400%. Shore's LOTR score-cycle is, in my opinion, one of the finest achievements in film music.

[Ollie 1,059]

I agree with Roald for once....

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

Non film music fans will like music which is loud and has good gut feeling regardless of originality, which is the reason Zimmer so popular..

[Sandor 797]

Zimmer has proven to be more original than countless other composers. Complain all you want, criticise the man 'till eternity, but Zimmer DID reinvent a huge part of film scoring. For better or worse; I won't answer that (for worse... oops I just did), but he created a whole new soundscape that dominates the Bruckenheimer-type vehicles nowadays.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

But to do it to your lead character for an entire film... Sounds ruddy expensive.

But think about it - this film is about 3-4 years away, right? Let's go back to 1997, four years before FOTR - it was almost unthinkable that you could digitally "shrink" people alongside "real size" actors (as they did with the hobbits and dwarves) for an entire film. The technology moved on a lot in those four years, and I'm sure it will in the next four, as well.

Wasnt the effect of short hobbits achieved mostly by perspective illusion? And kids....

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

But to do it to your lead character for an entire film... Sounds ruddy expensive.

But think about it - this film is about 3-4 years away, right? Let's go back to 1997, four years before FOTR - it was almost unthinkable that you could digitally "shrink" people alongside "real size" actors (as they did with the hobbits and dwarves) for an entire film. The technology moved on a lot in those four years, and I'm sure it will in the next four, as well.

Wasnt the effect of short hobbits achieved mostly by perspective illusion? And kids....

you didnt read my post, right?

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

Zimmer has proven to be more original than countless other composers. Complain all you want, criticise the man 'till eternity, but Zimmer DID reinvent a huge part of film scoring. For better or worse; I won't answer that (for worse... oops I just did), but he created a whole new soundscape that dominates the Bruckenheimer-type vehicles nowadays.

Zimmer's sound was new and cool. Unfortunately it has not evolved at all and its simply maddening to listen to now. And thats coming from me, someone who is somewhat kinder to Zimmer than most people here.

[Sandor 797]

Well, I felt that The Power Of One, The House Of The Spirits, Hannibal, The Thin Red Line, Spanglish or even The DaVinci Code (in parts) definately saw a Zimmer "evolving".

It's a shame really that people think Zimmer did The Rock, Backdraft and action films alike and that's all Zimmer did...

Sigh. It's like people saying Williams did nothing but "space music".

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Zimmer does more action movies than Williams' 6 SW movies

[Sandor 797]

Williams did more "space music" than just the Star Wars films...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

SpaceCamp.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

ET, CEOT3K, WOTW are not Space films.

just sci-fi.

And superman is the only to feature other planet. But i dont think it is a Space movie.

Even if the pops in space featured many of these scores.

[John Crichton 4]

IF this movie gets done, I wonder how much Jackson will embrace the larger universe (The White Council, etc) or just keep it simple and straightforward like the book. The Hobbit is easily my least favorite Tolkien work, in large part because it's just not nearly as complex and deep as LotR or The Silmarillion.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It's not what you think Manuel, It's what the uninformed think.

That's what Roald is getying at anyway.

[Sandor 797]

ET, CEOT3K, WOTW are not Space films.  

just sci-fi.

You didn't see those "", right? "space music"? The ignorant level of society that would even use that term also include E.T. or CE3K when defining "space music".

And what Stefan wrote.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Roald, you are one of the biggest Zimmer fans out here.

What do you think of his current big action stuff (Pirates 2, King Arthur) compared to his early action scores (Crimson Tide, Backdraft)?

I know Zimmer does evolve in his more smaller scores, but to me his big action stuff sounds like "Give The Producer What He Wants" music.

Your opinion please.

[Sandor 797]

What do you think of his current big action stuff (Pirates 2, King Arthur) compared to his early action scores (Crimson Tide, Backdraft)?

I own Crimson Tide and Backdraft, but never had any interest in getting either King Arthur and Pirates 2. In that sense you're right: his music for the big spectacle/action flick is on repeat mode.

In fact; I have a very select set of Zimmer scores. Those I have I love (The Power Of One, The Lion King, Crimson Tide, Backdraft and a few others). But he's not "involved" with his music as much as other, better composers are. For example The Lion King: ever take the time to list ALL the composers, arrangers, orchestrators, etc. working on it? Zimmer did something, no doubt, but Lebo M. deserved an Oscar too! The guy WAS responsible for most choral arrangments and vocal improvisations, which were a lot more interesting than the actual compositions.

Williams, Morricone, Goldsmith... They ARE their music. With Zimmer it's always Zimmer and a bunch of other guys.

[Marian Schedenig 8,199]

The Hobbit is easily my least favorite Tolkien work, in large part because it's just not nearly as complex and deep as LotR or The Silmarillion.

I love The Hobbit, even with all the simpler parts (overall, there's enough complexity there, but several subplots aren't too deep) and the overly childish bits, there's something there his other tales don't have. The Lonely Mountain and the big adventure it symbolises to Bilbo, together with the concept of 13 dwarfs and one wizard sitting in Bilbo's home late in the night and discussing their fates... there's something utterly magic, even primal about that, and it gets me every time.

That's also why I remember liking the bit in Unfinished Tales quite a lot, where Gandalf tells the story from his POV, i.e. without the childish bits. And it's also what I see as an opportunity to create a movie that stays true to the book and at the same time manages to maintain a more "serious" atmosphere.

Anyway, I highly recommend The Annotated Hobbit, and not only because it includes the original version of Riddles in the Dark (the one which Bilbo told Gandalf and the dwarves before Gandalf got him to tell the truth).

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I was kinda curious about the score to Pirates 2 untill I heard that Tiesto remix and heard Gladiator music, almost note for note.

Hannibal is still my fav Zimmer score, and I love Crimson Tide, parts of Backdraft, parts of Gladiator, parts of The Rock.

Still need to listen to DaVince Code, but I'll watch the DVd first.

Williams, Morricone, Goldsmith... They ARE their music. With Zimmer it's always Zimmer and a bunch of other guys.

You forgot Howard Shore.

Zimmer comes from a pop music background, it's more usual for music to be produced by numerous people.

It's not a bad thing perse.....

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

For example The Lion King: ever take the time to list ALL the composers, arrangers, orchestrators, etc. working on it? Zimmer did something, no doubt, but Lebo M. deserved an Oscar too! The guy WAS responsible for most choral arrangments and vocal improvisations, which were a lot more interesting than the actual compositions.  

And the song writers.

OK the song got an oscar. But the soundtrack was made of MV's score, Lebo's choral work and Mark Mancina -Elton John's Songs.

Zimmer just getting it (and for the common people getting credit for it all), is a real shame.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Well in his defense I do believe everyone is listed in the films credits and the CD booklet.

Old school filmscore fans like us are just used to a single composer doing EVERYTHING. That's why we have a shit storm here every time we discuss the role of Williams orchestrators.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Did he even thanked mentioned MV or the song wrties when he won the oscar?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Did MV excist at that point?

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Yes. I dont know about the movie but i remember the music for the Lion King Videogame was made by Media Ventures (it was in the credits)

[Sandor 797]

Zimmer was nominated in the Best Score category; Elton John was nominated for I think two songs (in the Best Song category).

I agree Stefan. But I like to see film music as the continuation of the a great symphonic tradition that started hundreds of years ago. Guys like Williams or Goldsmith just seem to fit better in that line.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

I mean, we all know that the lion king music was famous and popular for its songs. They even did a musical.

That's why it won an oscar. Its a good Zimmer effort, but they werent thinking of him when they voted.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

see film music as the continuation of the a great symphonic tradition that started hundreds of years ago. Guys like Williams or Goldsmith just seem to fit better in that line.

Realistically that can only apply to orchestral film music.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

That's also why I remember liking the bit in Unfinished Tales quite a lot where Gandalf tells the story from his POV, i.e. without the childish bits. And it's also what I see as an opportunity to create a movie that stays true to the book and at the same time manages to maintain a more "serious" atmosphere.

Oh my. I'll have to read that.

- Marc, whose "to read" list is starting to lengthen...

[Red 75]

I really cannot believe that a person could dislike LOTR's score, or the films themselves for that matter.

[Frosty 0]

I really cannot believe that a person could dislike LOTR's score, or the films themselves for that matter.

Believe it!!!

Anyway, if worse came to worse, I would rather have Shore score the Hobbit than Zimmer. It's not who is best but who sucks the least...

[Marian Schedenig 8,199]

Speaking of which, happy 75th birthday to Sir Ian.

[robthehand 3]

Which one?

[Red 75]

McKellen.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

That's also why I remember liking the bit in Unfinished Tales quite a lot, where Gandalf tells the story from his POV, i.e. without the childish bits. And it's also what I see as an opportunity to create a movie that stays true to the book and at the same time manages to maintain a more "serious" atmosphere.

Tolkien lore master, tell me every work that has mages (and dragons - which i asked other time...) from the Middle Earth.

Please, i want to check them

[Marian Schedenig 8,199]

The Silmarillion has dragons. The Hobbit has one wizard and one dragon (and many, many dwarves ). LOTR obviously has three (in the movies: two) wizards and only a passing mention (in the movie: none) of dragons.

Unfinished Tales has a bit about the Istari (wizards), a bit about The Hobbit (i.e. one wizard and one dragon), and Narn i chin Hurin (forgive the missing apostrophes etc.), which is perhaps the coolest of all those dragon tales.

And of course, there's Farmer Giles of Ham, but that's not a Middle-earth tale.

McKellen.  

No. Holm.

[Red 75]

My mistake.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

The Silmarillion has dragons. The Hobbit has one wizard and one dragon (and many, many dwarves ). LOTR obviously has three (in the movies: two) wizards and only a passing mention (in the movie: none) of dragons.

Unfinished Tales has a bit about the Istari (wizards), a bit about The Hobbit (i.e. one wizard and one dragon), and Narn i chin Hurin (forgive the missing apostrophes etc.), which is perhaps the coolest of all those dragon tales.

And of course, there's Farmer Giles of Ham, but that's not a Middle-earth tale.

Its seems i'm getting unfinished tales soon

[Ollie 1,059]

That's why it won an oscar. Its a good Zimmer effort, but they werent thinking of him when they voted.

I've always wondered that about Menken. His songs were good but the actual underscore wasn't.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

BUt the music of the songs was still Menken's i think.

[Marian Schedenig 8,199]

Its seems i'm getting unfinished tales soon

Well... a good chunk of that story is already in Sil, and it's not even repeated in UT (it just says go read up that part in Sil). Plus it's not called UT for nothing - it's all made up of sketches which often are missing larger chunks, or sometimes end in the middle. There's a lot of cool stuff in it, but one really should read the Sil first (if you don't like that, you'll hardly enjoy UT either).

Btw, Sibelius' Kullervo tells more or less the same story, though without a dragon I believe. 8O

Koyaanisqatsi (Philip Glass)

[QMM 4]

Interview with Shore about Complete Recordings and The Hobbit

[gkgyver 1,645]

Shore says he actually wants to rise to the intricate level of LotR again, that's why he's doing an opera at the moment.

Boy, this man is deprived of challenges, give him The Hobbit, dammit!

By the way, if part two of The Hobbit is actually going to be a film version of the Appendix, I wonder if Shore will write music for it. Well, I'm jumping ahead here, I wonder if *anyone* will write original music for it

[ST-321 4]

Thanks for the link QuestionMarkMan!