'Filler' music, by John Williams

[Quintus 5,399]

About a month ago (), I remember KM saying that after having a listen to the extended Avatar album, he remarked that there was quite a bit of 'filler' in the score - generally accepted as being music of only minimal interest, or 'padding'. Which led me to think about instances were JW has created film music of the same nature, where sometimes the music becomes merely a means to an end. Does he even take this approach with his work, or are you of the belief that every single note is lovingly hand crafted by the passionate, hard working maestro? Surely it's fair to suggest that sometimes even John Williams is at a loss for ideas at certain points during his writing process and that perhaps even he switches on a bit of autopilot, in order to meet deadlines, and get paid...

And whilst we're on about it, who do you think is undisputed king of filler? I know who I think is: Howard Shore.

[crocodile 8,017]

And whilst we're on about it, who do you think is undisputed king of filler? I know who I think is: Howard Shore.

I agree. And it's a real shame for Shore can write some amazing material when he's trying.

James Horner can do that too. When he's having these 16 end title suites that go on and on, extending his (sometimes not awful) melodramatic themes beyoned tolerability. Yuck!

Of course JW does this as well sometimes, but, most often than not, there is something that can sustain your interest if you listen carefully, even in his most dull passages.

Karol

[Morlock 11]

Sure Williams has filler. It is a key difference between Williams in the 70's and 80's and more recent Williams. I can't think of filler in Superman or The Fury...but The Lost World, Minority Report, Memoirs of a Geisha? They've got tracks that are tracks that are just plain boring. Of course, it can be hard to separate filler from autopilot, and especially hard to separate filler from opinion. A dull track by one person's standards could be a sonic delight to another. I've been listening to Road to Perdition recently, and I can easily imagine being bored to tears by some of the tracks. Except I'm not, and it's one of my favorite all time scores.

[gkgyver 1,645]

I can't stand the tingling, rambling, directionless music that dominate huge parts of scores like Philosopher's Stone or Attack Of The Clones. It really annoys me.

Someone like Shore writes filler music that doesn't engage you, but at least it's not as abundantly annoying as a 23rd random piccolo accentuation.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

There is a lot of filler music in John Williams's more recent scores.

[publicist 4,643]

I would tend to think that thrillers like PRESUMED INNOCENT are the prime suspects here. My personal definition of filler is either sustained chords or mood-setting trail-along stuff.

Typical Williams filler stuff is found in the first half of A. I., MINORITY REPORT, THE PATRIOT or SAVING PRIVATE RYAN.

Examples tends to pile since every film has 120 minutes of score.

[Morlock 11]

I agree on Across the Stars, but I think there is only one track on HPPS I always skip- 'In the Devil's Snare / The Flying Keys'. The rest all feels like it has a shape and a purpose.

[publicist 4,643]

I can't stand the tingling, rambling, directionless music that dominate huge parts of scores like Philosopher's Stone or Attack Of The Clones. It really annoys me.

By that reasoning, you can't stand half of his recent action music.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I can't!

[Ollie 1,059]

The prequels are full of filler music. Hook has its fair shair as well.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No, there is fairly little non-thematic music in Hook at all.

[Ollie 1,059]

Filler music can contain themes, at least in my opinion. When I think of filler music I think of music that a scene could have done without.

[Morlock 11]

I don't think any score has less filler than Hook. Not an ounce of it, to my ears.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No, IMO filler music is film music that is perfectly servicable for the scene, but not of any interest apart from it.

[Morlock 11]

I agree with Steef's definition. Mark's is more appropriate...but I simply call that too much music or badly placed. Filler to me isn't necessarily badly placed, but it's there simply because music was needed, without the composer contributing any good ideas.

[Ollie 1,059]

I will say that as the years have passed, there is more filler music in Williams' scores. I also think that has to do with the music editor at times.

I'll be honest and say that yes, there were films that he scored where there wasn't one note wasted. Everything in the score was good/great.

[steb74 53]

You could say that about any score though Mark, I think it's relative to ones enjoyment and understanding of a given score.

On here, most people seem to call something they don't like either filler, generic or auto-pilot, lots of blaming the music and not enough placed on the ears that are listening to it.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I will say that as the years have passed, there is more filler music in Williams' scores. I also think that has to do with the music editor at times.

I'll be honest and say that yes, there were films that he scored where there wasn't one note wasted. Everything in the score was good/great.

Raiders is a good example. So is Jaws!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Stepmom, The Lost World, Nixon, A.I. and most of his other modern scores feature this kind of music at some point or another. I skip that whole first half of "Stored Memories and Monica's Theme" (which was also a huge waste of disc space), "The Compys Dine", "Ludlow's Demise", much of KOTCS, most of Stepmom. I compare a lot of the darker, ambient/atonal material to Jaws or CE3K, which are like the damned gold standard. Williams just isn't as talented with that kind of music anymore, or he just hasn't been very inspired since the early 90's.

[Jay 37,364]

The prequels are full of filler music. Hook has its fair shair as well.

Are you crazy? HOOK is the LAST score by JW I'd say had any filler in it. Every single cue is bristling with new themes, development of prior themes, or fantastic music that exists on in that cue. Its just like the OT scores where every cue is worth listening to every time.

Well, except some of the Jabba's Palace stuff in ROTJ - THAT'S a good definition of filler

[steb74 53]

Stepmom, The Lost World, Nixon, A.I. and most of his other modern scores feature this kind of music at some point or another. I skip that whole first half of "Stored Memories and Monica's Theme" (which was also a huge waste of disc space), "The Compys Dine", "Ludlow's Demise", much of KOTCS, most of Stepmom. I compare a lot of the darker, ambient/atonal material to Jaws or CE3K, which are like the damned gold standard. Williams just isn't as talented with that kind of music anymore, or he just hasn't been very inspired since the early 90's.

That's the point I was making above, how are you able to make the reasoning that just because you don't like something that the artist was uninspired?

It makes no sense.

Well, except some of the Jabba's Palace stuff in ROTJ - THAT'S a good definition of filler

I think it's a terrible definition as it contains some of the most interesting material in ROTJ and not a note of filler.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Please, if you are going to be personally offended by our posts. Do it somewere else!

[A24 4,337]

There is a lot of filler music in John Williams's more recent scores.

Filler is trendy.

No, IMO filler music is film music that is perfectly servicable for the scene, but not of any interest apart from it.

In most cases it doesn't even serve the scene. It's just reduntant. There's too much music in movies.

[crocodile 8,017]

I wish films weren't scored wall-to-wall, especially these big ones. They don't need all this music. It's so buried anyway that it hardly does anything in the film.

EDIT: I guess Alex said exactly the same thing at the same time in the post above.

Karol

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

It is trendy, isn't it. It seems films nowadays don't even need any of this pointless music, but perhaps when a composer and orchestra are attached to a film, for monetary reasons they contractually require a certain amount of film music to be composed/recorded.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I doubt it.

But Directors nowadays feel that everything has to be quicker and LOUDER. So they fill the soundtrack up with music and a lot of soundeffects.

Or else our attention might drift away...

[steb74 53]

Please, if you are going to be personally offended by our posts. Do it somewere else!

I'm not sure if that was aimed at me Stefan but what on earth is there to be offended about? ... on an internet message board of all places!

It seems as though you're the one taking the defensive stance as I'm only sharing my opinion.

Come on though man, what's with the 'Do it somewere else!', you're not a big man in person so don't try to act like one here.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I might not be big in the real world, but on this Forum...

Everyone's my bitch!

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Sure Williams has filler. It is a key difference between Williams in the 70's and 80's and more recent Williams. I can't think of filler in Superman or The Fury...but The Lost World, Minority Report, Memoirs of a Geisha? They've got tracks that are tracks that are just plain boring. Of course, it can be hard to separate filler from autopilot, and especially hard to separate filler from opinion. A dull track by one person's standards could be a sonic delight to another. I've been listening to Road to Perdition recently, and I can easily imagine being bored to tears by some of the tracks. Except I'm not, and it's one of my favorite all time scores.

I can definitely see "Murder (In Four Parts)" being boring to people. But, like you, I love this score.

[Datameister 2,043]

Just ignore the Supreme Something Something. But anyway, yeah, everyone writes filler sometimes, and Williams' music has developed more and more of it over time. Hard to say whose fault it is, because a lot of factors affect the fillerishness of the music: the quality of the film, decisions made during spotting, how busy Williams is, etc.

I also agree that thematic material can still be filler. And y'know, it could be argued (although I wouldn't) that ALL film music is filler, if filler is music that exists purely to serve the onscreen happenings. Of course there's art and inspiration involved, but the music is a tool at the end of the day, and it's being developed for a specific purpose.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

I will say that as the years have passed, there is more filler music in Williams' scores. I also think that has to do with the music editor at times.

I'll be honest and say that yes, there were films that he scored where there wasn't one note wasted. Everything in the score was good/great.

I wonder, if "Ben Gardner's Boat" was in a latter Williams score instead of Jaws, would it be considered filler?

[Wojo 2,453]

Or "The Well of Souls" in a score later than Raiders.

[Uni 306]

The prequels are full of filler music. Hook has its fair shair as well.

Are you kidding me. . . ? As has been said, Hook is filler-free, beginning to end.

This is the best definition for filler--which means filler music isn't bad in and of itself. It just doesn't catch our attention like the rest of a score might.

Usually the identifying characteristic of filler music is a constant, steady, unchanging progression of melody, usually anchored to a consistant rhythmical foundation. The best example that comes to my mind is "Dennis Steals the Embryos." It just sort of goes along as the scene progresses.

Again, perfectly serviceable, but not very interesting listening.

As for "Ben Gardner's Boat" "Well of the Souls" . . . I have a hard time envisioning a universe where either of these pieces would ever be considered filler music.

- Uni

[Quintus 5,399]

I don't think any score has less filler than Hook. Not an ounce of it, to my ears.

Hook is possibly the most overscored movie of Williams' entire career. It's just that he happens to dress his 'filler' up with awesome amounts of ace brass, boom-tish and whatever else he can muster from his orchestration chops repertoire. It's like the best damn filler music on the market, but it's still just filler.

I'm not referring to any of the amazing thematic stuff, by the way.

[Wojo 2,453]

I wouldn't consider "Dennis Steals the Embryos" to be filler. I think it's moderately interesting tension music.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It is.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Most of Elfman's scores these days are nothing but wall-to-wall filler. He was great up until about 2003-04.

[steb74 53]

I wouldn't consider "Dennis Steals the Embryos" to be filler.

Exactly and that's why there'll never be unified consensus of what filler really is, especially in a place where a huge chunk of the members are theme chasers.

Like what you said about "The Well of Souls", if that and dozens more cues from what are considered his masterworks were heard only now, they too would be considered filler.

[Wojo 2,453]

On the flip side, look at a score like "Cutthroat Island," which contains so much bombast and thematic material, it overwhelms the listener.

[Datameister 2,043]

Plenty of filler in "Cutthroat Island." And "The Well of Souls" does contain a lot of filler music - a rare exceptions in one of the greatest film scores ever written.

[Morlock 11]

I don't think any score has less filler than Hook. Not an ounce of it, to my ears.

Hook is possibly the most overscored movie of Williams' entire career. It's just that he happens to dress his 'filler' up with awesome amounts of ace brass, boom-tish and whatever else he can muster from his orchestration chops repertoire. It's like the best damn filler music on the market, but it's still just filler.

I'm not referring to any of the amazing thematic stuff, by the way.

Again, that depends on ones definition of filler. Hook is basically all thematic stuff. There are maybe three or four cues that aren't related to one of the dozen repeated themes in the film, and those two have their own melodic ideas.

[steb74 53]

On the flip side, look at a score like "Cutthroat Island," which contains so much bombast and thematic material, it overwhelms the listener.

I believe it always depends on the listener.

I don't mean that as a piss take but an example of how a place like this has so many members, each with a different ability in how they listen to and understand what they are actually listening to.

And "The Well of Souls" does contain a lot of filler music - a rare exceptions in one of the greatest film scores ever written.

I don't think there is one bar of filler in "The Well of Souls".

[Ollie 1,059]

No, it's one of those cues that doesn't have any wasted notes. In fact the entire score to Raiders is one of those that don't feature any filler music or wasted notes.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Well, it's rather foolish to say that because you don't know how it would sound, had Williams added anything else.

I can't stand the tingling, rambling, directionless music that dominate huge parts of scores like Philosopher's Stone or Attack Of The Clones. It really annoys me.

By that reasoning, you can't stand half of his recent action music.

Half of it? More like 3/4.

[Datameister 2,043]

And again, subjectivity comes into play. I completely feel that way about every single other cue in Raiders, but not some parts of "The Well of Souls."

[steb74 53]

Well, it's rather foolish to say that because you don't know how it would sound, had Williams added anything else.

Man, you write some embarrassing crap ......hmmm, I wonder if I'd still love The Empire Strikes Back had Williams added 18 new cues??

Isn't the point that he didn't add anything new, so now we should revise our thoughts and feelings of scores based on what a composer could have added?

However, Williams did add something new ...20 odd years later.

John Williams Conducting Start of Raiders (Tanglewood 2008)

It isn't really necessary but I still think it sounds great nevertheless.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Ahem, Mark said Raiders was one of these scores that has not one note too much in it, to which I replied there was no way you could say that because you don't know what some cues would have sounded like, had Williams added some lines here or there.

Who says Williams hadn't done anything differently? Maybe there was no more time to work on certain cues, or Spielberg made suggestions, whatever.

Of course the question is not "will I like Raiders if there were 18 more cues". Now that is embarassing crap.

[Ollie 1,059]

Well, it's rather foolish to say that because you don't know how it would sound, had Williams added anything else.

No because we're talking about the cues being exactly the same as they were in 1975 & 1981.

[steb74 53]

Ahem, Mark said Raiders was one of these scores that has not one note too much in it, to which I replied there was no way you could say that because you don't know what some cues would have sounded like, had Williams added some lines here or there.

Who says Williams hadn't done anything differently? Maybe there was no more time to work on certain cues, or Spielberg made suggestions, whatever.

Of course the question is not "will I like Raiders if there were 18 more cues". Now that is embarassing crap.

Ha ha, don't cry mate, you can try and justify it any way you want.

How on earth can anybody base their opinions on work that may or may not even exist?

Straws & Clutching I think

[Datameister 2,043]

However, Williams did add something new ...20 odd years later.

John Williams Conducting Start of Raiders (Tanglewood 2008)

It isn't really necessary but I still think it sounds great nevertheless.

I never heard about that. Do we know for sure that he didn't write that material originally? The slate numbers we have jump from 1M3 to 2M2 - unless someone has said otherwise, this could be an original 2M1. The different ending I don't know about, though. But in any case, I like both.