New Varese Star Trek the Deluxe Edition!

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Am I the only one who doesn't give a rat's patootie the choir isn't there?

<puts feet up>

Josh, a poll, if you please.

I don't like the choir that much (and it gets excessively cheesy due to its use at the climax), so no.

[Jay 46,244]

it's not just the choir: The Varese DE also has:

Two entire cues missing

A large portion of another cue missing

Sections microedited out of 3 other tracks

A cue with a serious production error (most instruments missing for a portion)

A cue they took the film edit of instead of the original unedited cue (so there's missing erhu and a looped section on the CD)

That's on top of the SEVEN cues that had choir removed

and if you guys HEARD the cues with the missing choir restored, you'd be singing a different tune

[Charlie Brigden 7]

it's not just the choir: The Varese DE also has:

Two entire cues missing

A large portion of another cue missing

Sections microedited out of 3 other tracks

A cue with a serious production error (most instruments missing for a portion)

A cue they took the film edit of instead of the original unedited cue (so there's missing erhu and a looped section on the CD)

That's on top of the SEVEN cues that had choir removed

and if you guys HEARD the cues with the missing choir restored, you'd be singing a different tune

I heard it in the film and thought it was cheesy and out of place. Sorry.

[Jay 46,244]

Well 2 of the cues in question the choir was also dropped in the film, so you haven't heard it.

And its only in those finale cues where it is big and grandiose. It is far more subtle in "Welcome Back, Spock" and "Spock Goes Spelunking" for example

[Ollie 1,375]

Well since none of us were there during the scoring sessions, nor were we present while Varese put this together, I'd say any gripes or complaints are pure speculation with no true facts to back up the claims.

If Michael Giacchino or someone else involved in the process comes out and posts that this set is wrong, then I'll pay attention.

[OneBuckFilms 517]

I'd prefer it if the choir was there, and these issues were not there, but I'm still loving what IS there.

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Okay, what I heard in the film was cheesy. I'm sure the new bits are better than sliced bread (boourns, Townson!).

[Jay 46,244]

Well since none of us were there during the scoring sessions, nor were we present while Varese put this together, I'd say any gripes or complaints are pure speculation with no true facts to back up the claims.

If Michael Giacchino or someone else involved in the process comes out and posts that this set is wrong, then I'll pay attention.

What are you talking about, Mark? You are saying the list I just posted of everything wrong with the set is inaccurate?

You think Giacchino wanted all the instruments stripped out of "I've Fallen and I Can't Beam Up"? You think he wanted the film edit of "Welcome Back Spock" on there, removing the distorted erhu he recorded for it, and LOOPING a section from the end?

You think Giacchino wrote and recorded all that chorus, but prefers to have it presented on CD without?

Of course not. Those are all mistakes Varese made with the set (except the chorus, which is a case of not being able to afford the choir fees).

And we haven't even talked about how they skimped on the liner notes completely.

It's 100% perfectly fine to hold the OPINION that you personally are OK with the set and don't care about what you are missing.

But it is a FACT that there is music missing on the set, on top of production errors and unusual creative decisions.

[Ollie 1,375]

I would think by now film score fans would realize what was actually composed or written can end up being recorded and used in a film in a completely different form.

So again, we don't know 100% as to what was changed, what was decided upon by Michael Giacchino, Varese Sarabande or why certain decisions were made.

So unless you guys have an open line to Michael Giacchino or Varese and they have told you exactly why things ended up the way they did.....

And didn't Trent post something from Roger Feigleson twhere he mentioned that even Intrada wouldn't have been able to include the Choir?

Here:

http://jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=17627&st=760

Here's an interesting little fact for you guys...Roger was on Facebook chat today and I asked him if Intrada had released the Deluxe Edition for Star Trek if they would have included the choir for those cues that the choir was meant for. He said he doubts they would have as the choir was covered by SAG and not AFM and believes the fees would have been astronomical.

I guess with the score being only a year old the choir fees are just way too much for even Varèse to pay for. I bet if the score had been released 10 years ago it's possible Varèse would have been able to pay for those fees and include the choir.

So basically what it boils down to is that people don't like the decisions Varese made and I'm fine with that, but that does not mean they screwed up or half assed it on this project or that they made all these errors that are 100% factual.

[Jay 46,244]

Yes, I already said in my post above yours that the choir fees were very high.

That doesn't change the fact they made a production error in "I've Fallen And I Can't Beam Up!"; microedited "Narada Boom", "The Flask At Hand", and "Enterprising Young Men"; didn't include "Star Trek" OR "Star Trek v2", used the film edit of "Welcome Back, Spock", etc......

I feel like I am repeating myself here, but I also feel like you don't feel as though as of those things are issues

[OneBuckFilms 517]

Jason, these are issues, but are not the end of the world.

[fommes 165]

I agree with Jason. And the choir is the least of all the shortcomings of the release; I can see how that might have been too expensive (but actually we don't know that's the reason for sure either). I even don't care, at all, about the packaging and the lack of liner notes.

But, while I'm very thankful from day one for getting all the new stuff, I'm not happy with the other errors/oversights/decisions that Jason mentioned, with the worst of them the exclusion of the two main titles (and the original opening). It doesn't matter whose decisions these are; it's highly likely they're Townson's, but if they're Giacchino's, I'm equally unhappy.

Being thankful and content does not exclude being highly critical, too, as long as the criticism is not unfounded.

[Jay 46,244]

Yea, I am very, very thankful that Varese chose to invest their resources in getting a 2CD presentation of this score out to us. I just wish they had taken a little more time to make sure there were not mistakes in the final presentation, and hired somebody to analyze the score and write some decent liner notes. I'd rather have waited another year for a proper release than gotten a short-changed release quicker.

[OneBuckFilms 517]

Very true. Perhaps some corrected cues will emerge in time.

[Luke Skywalker 2,385]

Very true. Perhaps some corrected cues will emerge in time.

It should be the other way arround (a faulty bootleg tossed by a perfect official release)

It seems, in this case we will have to rely on unofficial ilegal sources...

Has the choir fees or guild changed policy within the last few years?

Because Speed raced didnt had an issue, but neither seems to have Land of the lost (which is the complete score) released the same year as stak trek.

[Joe Brausam 234]

I gave this a listen today for the first time in months, and what a great listen it was. I picked up on a lot of different things that I had never heard before, like did anyone ever notice that at 5:03 in "Nero Death Experience" the theme from "Labor of Love" is quoted in the trumpets, then finished by the horns right before the big orchestra hit? Never noticed that before today, but that was such a cool touch!

I also decided that the lack of choir does not hurt this release at all, it would probably bother me if I was intimate with the music as presented in the film, but I'm not. I love the Varese release personally and it gives me everything I could want out of this score (though I prefer the album version of "Hella Bartok", for the horn line).

[Datameister 2,586]

You didn't notice the quote from "Labor of Love" until now?

But I agree about the score. From time to time, I'll listen to at least a few tracks, and it's a lot of fun.

[Joe Brausam 234]

I can't say I've paid much attention to it before I guess, so that was a real "wow" moment for me today! It's so obvious too, I can't believe I've been missing it..

[Datameister 2,586]

Haha, I have moments like those, too...like realizing that Courage's four-note theme comes in at the end of "The Flask at Hand"...

[Trent B 354]

Like Joe (Datameister) I listen to certain cues from time to time. I sorta burned myself out on the score after I got the Deluxe Edition. Probably because I listened to it quite a bit a lot of times. Either way as you guys have aid it's still a good score.

[Henry B 51]

Haha, I have moments like those, too...like realizing that Courage's four-note theme comes in at the end of "The Flask at Hand"...

Ooh, I never noticed that. Now how about the Courage fanfare at the very beginning of "Narada Bing"? It's in the violins.

[Datameister 2,586]

Hmmm, I'm not hearing that in "Narada Bing." Are you talking about the unused beginning of the cue? All I hear is an arpeggiated minor chord...

[Henry B 51]

Yeah. It's not definite, for sure. It just kind of recalled the broad intervals Courage's fanfare is associated with.

[Datameister 2,586]

Sorry, I think that's too much of a stretch, Henry.

One that took me an amazingly long time to notice was Giacchino's theme playing in counterpoint to the Courage fanfare, starting 10 seconds into "To Boldly Go." For a while, it just sounded to me like a rhythmically strange version of the fanfare, with the cellos doing some sort of moving line underneath. I don't think I got it until I started trying to figure out how to play that cue on piano. Then it suddenly dawned on me. (Incidentally, the meter and rhythm really are bizarre. Took me forever to figure out where the beat was.)

[Joe Brausam 234]

Sorry, I think that's too much of a stretch, Henry.

One that took me an amazingly long time to notice was Giacchino's theme playing in counterpoint to the Courage fanfare, starting 10 seconds into "To Boldly Go." For a while, it just sounded to me like a rhythmically strange version of the fanfare, with the cellos doing some sort of moving line underneath. I don't think I got it until I started trying to figure out how to play that cue on piano. Then it suddenly dawned on me. (Incidentally, the meter and rhythm really are bizarre. Took me forever to figure out where the beat was.)

Never noticed that either! Stuff like this is making me really appreciate this score more than I already did.

[Demondm810 473]

I admit I was a bit cynical with this score at first. I didn't really like must past the main theme, and thought the orchestrations were a little thin. Now that I've had months to get to know it, I appreciate it a lot more. While I don't think it quite matches most of the Trek scores (it definitely beats IV), it IS more intelligent than I originally thought. I'm very much looking forward to him doing the sequel.

[Datameister 2,586]

Yeah, it's crucial to not expect it to be a classic Trek score. It's very much a Giacchino score. If you can get past the orchestration and performance (both of which are sometimes rather weak), it's a pretty fun score. It'd be so awesome to hear it orchestrated in a style closer to Williams' and recorded the way his scores tend to be...

[Demondm810 473]

Who are MG's usual orchestrators?

[Luke Skywalker 2,385]

Hmmm, I'm not hearing that in "Narada Bing." Are you talking about the unused beginning of the cue? All I hear is an arpeggiated minor chord...

Interesting. Very interesting.

[Datameister 2,586]

The unused beginning is on the DVD...I don't remember which feature, since it's been a while since I ripped it, but it's there.

[Joe Brausam 234]

Hmmm, I'm not hearing that in "Narada Bing." Are you talking about the unused beginning of the cue? All I hear is an arpeggiated minor chord...

Interesting. Very interesting.

Apparently there's some stuff floating around with choirs and all, I haven't heard any of it though..

[Luke Skywalker 2,385]

is it a clean rip? i may try it.

[Datameister 2,586]

It's totally clean, yeah. The sound quality isn't AMAZING, but it's good enough. It was somewhere on the second disc, I think.

[Luke Skywalker 2,385]

Who are MG's usual orchestrators?

Himself, Tim Simonec, Chris Tilton, Chad Seiter, Andrea Datzman, Mark Gasbarro...

[Demondm810 473]

He needs Conrad Pope.

[Datameister 2,586]

Without comparing Giacchino's sketches to his orchestrators' manuscripts, I couldn't really say exactly how much detail he puts into it...but based on the similarity between works he's orchestrated and works he hasn't, I'd say the problem is mostly with Giacchino himself. And the way he records his music sounds a lot different from the traditional symphonic score, which doesn't help. As I've said before, I think these things work marvelously for scores like LOST and whatnot, but I can't help wondering what Star Trek would have sounded like with a more traditional orchestration style and sound quality.

Williams' orchestrators (like Pope) certainly have a very good grasp of Williams' style because they've spent so much time collaborating with him, but the style ultimately comes from Williams himself. It's almost all there in his sketches, and most of what isn't there is implicitly understood because it's how Williams has done it in the past.

[Demondm810 473]

Hm. I thought Desplat benefited greatly from Pope.

[Datameister 2,586]

I wouldn't know anything about that, and don't get me wrong - Pope is a great orchestrator. I have no doubt that he could emulate Williams' style of orchestration very well, since his job has entailed spending so much time immersed in and executing it. So what I said wasn't really a rebuttal of your comment...just food for thought, really.

[Demondm810 473]

Haha. I wasn't disagreeing with you either. I think Pope "opened up" Desplat's music so to speak. Gave it that bigger sound. But I think your are right about MG's recording techniques. Either way, I tend to believe you. You ARE the expert.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,110]

I think if Giacchino stops mic-ing and mixing his music like rock music, his orchestration will sound better, and his music will be better regarded.

I find Desplat has a similar issue...if he had better miccing and mixing on DH1 he'd sound as big and clear Williams. Desplat's recordings tend to inflate the lower end and make it all boomy on top of that.

But the biggest problem the two composers have (or whoever is the engineer/mixer for them) is their music has front row dynamics. The sound of the instruments just doesn't get a chance to travel a little and have mother nature work on them and sweeten them a little. They claim they do it because they like being able to hear each instrument, but honestly I'd rather the sounds danced in the hall a little before getting to my ears.

When it comes to orchestral music, the middle rows have the best acoustics. Giacchino and Desplat seem to think the front row is the best place to be. Idiots!

[Koray Savas 2,260]

Giacchino's orchestration is what makes his music so Giacchino.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,110]

Yup.

He just needs to spread that orchestra of his out, pull the mics back a few feet, and tell old guy who mixes for him to gracefully retire.

[Datameister 2,586]

Giacchino's orchestration is what makes his music so Giacchino.

Absolutely. Which works great for some stuff, but not so much for others. Sometimes I'd really like to get Giacchino's compositional voice recorded in the manner of, say, TPM or E.T. or something.

[Trent B 354]

Without comparing Giacchino's sketches to his orchestrators' manuscripts, I couldn't really say exactly how much detail he puts into it...but based on the similarity between works he's orchestrated and works he hasn't, I'd say the problem is mostly with Giacchino himself. And the way he records his music sounds a lot different from the traditional symphonic score, which doesn't help. As I've said before, I think these things work marvelously for scores like LOST and whatnot, but I can't help wondering what Star Trek would have sounded like with a more traditional orchestration style and sound quality.

Williams' orchestrators (like Pope) certainly have a very good grasp of Williams' style because they've spent so much time collaborating with him, but the style ultimately comes from Williams himself. It's almost all there in his sketches, and most of what isn't there is implicitly understood because it's how Williams has done it in the past.

Dan Walin recorded the score for Star Trek....that's why it sorta sounds muddy. I never cared for any of Walin's recordings. Avatar suffers this as well.

[Delorean90 47]

I feel like Giacchino's scores for Brad Bird have sounded better to my ears in their overall sound as well as the compositions and orchestrations. It feels like Bird just pulls something out of him that Abrams and others haven't.

[Datameister 2,586]

Yeah, Dan Wallin did TLC, Star Treks 2-4, basically all of Giacchino's work...no offense to the guy, but it puzzle me that he's been hired for so many high-profile projects when it seems like they all end up sounding muddy and claustrophobic.

It's especially bad with the trumpets in Star Trek. I think part of that is just the musicians...I'm sorry, but they just sound awful and shrill. Compare that to the brilliant thrill of listening to the trumpets in something like Jurassic Park or Hook. It's a whole different instrument.

[indy4 160]

Yeah, I think those rhythmic hits in Star Trek could be really cool if the trumpets sounded better...and you know it's bad if i notice it.

[OneBuckFilms 517]

I've never had a particular issue with the sound of Star Trek (2009), but the concensus is there re: muddiness.

I wonder if Star Trek 2012 will have Dan Wallin or someone else recording?

The last season of lost sounds significantly brighter that previous seasons of the series. Did Dan Wallin do those as well?

[Ollie 1,375]

Yeah, I don't have any problems with the sound on Star Trek either.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,388]

I do, it really is not a nice recording to listen too.