JohnnyD 1,223 Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Let's talk about one cue that scores the major turning point in the entire Star Wars saga (all six films):I Am the Senate!The cue itself, the entirety of the sequence it scores, how the ending of the cue is originally played out (the Imperial March, with an added touch); let's discuss this amazing track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyD 1,223 Posted June 11, 2013 Author Share Posted June 11, 2013 I Am the Senate.This is probably one of the most terrifying sequences that John Williams has done. The frightening feel of the strings as Palpatine, revealing who he really is, has a fierce lightsaber duel against Mace Windu in a battle to the death; the terror of the brass (especially in The Emperor's Theme) as the two lock lightsabers; the horrifying shrills of dissonance in the piccolos as Palpatine strikes Mace Windu the first time with force lightening; as the Emperor's face is slowly deformed to reveal his true form; the crescendo as Anakin cuts off Windu's hand, giving the Emperor the chance, and Windu finally being killed by Palpatine's barrage of lightening; the ending crescendo of The Imperial March, backed up by dark choir, as Anakin pledges his service to the Emperor.Why was the cue mostly unused?What feelings does one get from hearing the original cue?How would it look if the complete cue was used in the film? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,715 Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 I would hazard a guess there was some heavy editing of the sequence involved and some of Williams' music for the final moments of the duel between Windu and Palpatine seems to replicate what is happening in the sound effects, mimicking the lightnings flashes and physical action quite closely.I really like that piece of music although I wish more of Emperor's theme was used, perhaps with choral backing, especially in the final face-off at the window. Surprisingly Williams and Lucas could be thematically stingy at odd points where reprising strong melodic material might have been the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smeltington 1,440 Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Indeed, last time I listened to RotS I was surprised that there was more Force theme and less of any other themes than I remembered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,715 Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 I do like the ferocity of the new ostinato figure and how Williams combines it with Emperor's Theme in the duel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyD 1,223 Posted June 11, 2013 Author Share Posted June 11, 2013 I thought that section with The Emperor's Theme was absolutely chilling; I believe it scores the continuation of the battle after the established shot of Anakin running to his ship and taking off (re-edited as taking place before the duel in the finished film. It gives the indication of doom and the face of evil finally brought into focus.There is a reason why the Force Theme was used. The use of the Force Theme in this case represents the dire situation that Anakin is faced to deal with, pleading for Windu to spare Palpatine's life, despite his evil nature and horrifying intentions. Anakin is at a pivitol cross-road, and all he has fought for is in the balance. Gnome in Plaid 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Yes, a wonderful use of clusters that only Williams knows how to pull-off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smeltington 1,440 Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 I was speaking about the entire film in regard to the Force theme, but I will have to give this cue another listen sometime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyD 1,223 Posted June 11, 2013 Author Share Posted June 11, 2013 Well, with everything hanging in the balance, it makes sense to have the Force Theme.Also, with Obi-Wan's mission to Utapau, the use of the Force Theme (aka Ben Kenobi's Theme) associates the Force with the character as is the case in Episode IV, V, and VI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyD 1,223 Posted June 12, 2013 Author Share Posted June 12, 2013 I am really curious about something... Why was the beginning of Boys Into Battle unused?I know it is traditional to have the ending of Star Wars Main Titles, but in the case of Episode III: Revenge of the Sith, a large-scale space battle is taking place, hence why Boys Into Battle begins with a bang. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,715 Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Well, with everything hanging in the balance, it makes sense to have the Force Theme.Also, with Obi-Wan's mission to Utapau, the use of the Force Theme (aka Ben Kenobi's Theme)associates the Force with the character as is the case in Episode IV, V, and VI.Some of my favourite variations on the theme in the Prequels. I also love the way he uses the Force Theme specifically for Obi Wan a lot more in the Episode III. I always thought Jango's Escape from Episode II could have used some more Force Theme but I guess Lucas was in his "let's do a slightly oriental percussion based action" mode so the ostinato driven action music was the result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,044 Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 I really curious about something... Why was the beginning of Boys Into Battle unused?I know it is traditional to have the ending of Star Wars Main Titles, but in the caseOf Episode III: Revenge of the Sith, a large-scale space battle is taking place,hence why Boys Into Battle begins with a bang.It seems safe to assume that once the filmmakers saw the scene with the music added in, it didn't fit in a way they liked. It must have happened at least somewhat late in the game, since Williams didn't do any rescoring. Personally, I agree with the decision not to use the beginning of the cue - I don't think the segue feels natural, and although the big dissonant chords are interesting, they don't really create the right tone for the scene, IMO.The percussion that was used instead is...an interesting choice, too. It also breaks from tradition, just like the original beginning of the cue. I like the fact that it gives us a moment of quiet before the chaos of the battle - the beginning of the scene is actually quite tranquil until the fighters roar into frame. You don't know that it's a battle yet - just a shot of starlight and a ship in orbit.Ideally, though, I would have liked a legitimate alternate intro, following a dramatic contour similar to the beginning of ANH. Segue from the main title into misterioso passages that soon build into the action music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smeltington 1,440 Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Well, with everything hanging in the balance, it makes sense to have the Force Theme.Also, with Obi-Wan's mission to Utapau, the use of the Force Theme (aka Ben Kenobi's Theme)associates the Force with the character as is the case in Episode IV, V, and VI.Some of my favourite variations on the theme in the Prequels. I also love the way he uses the Force Theme specifically for Obi Wan a lot more in the Episode III. I always thought Jango's Escape from Episode II could have used some more Force Theme but I guess Lucas was in his "let's do a slightly oriental percussion based action" mode so the ostinato driven action music was the result.Interesting, I didn't notice he was associating it more with Obi-Wan in RotS. I kind of figured he used the theme a lot in RotS because of all the "chosen one" destiny fulfillment going on - bringing balance to the Force, etc. I'll have to keep that in mind next time I watch the movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted June 12, 2013 Share Posted June 12, 2013 Cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyD 1,223 Posted June 15, 2013 Author Share Posted June 15, 2013 Let's talk about The Emperor's Theme. This is probably one of the most darkest pieces of music written by John Williams. The sinister performance of the male choir sends chills down my spine. The motif perfectly captures the personification of evil itself. It is heard whenever Darth Sidious / Emperor Palpatine is on screen. The motif is used in Episode I: The Phantom Menace to portray the gathering strength of evil, as Sidious slowly puts his plan into place. In Episode II: Attack of the Clones, while it is used once or twice, it symbolizes the progression of Sidious' plans going as he has foreseen. In Episode III: Revenge of the Sith, it symbolizes Palpatine's reveal as Darth Sidious, his declaration of the Empire as the Emperor, and his plan of bringing the Republic down from the inside succeeding. The thing is, there are times where this motif is in disguised form, but is still there none the less. With Episode II: Attack of the Clones, Palpatine's Plotting does contain slight hints of The Emperor's Theme, but cleverly hidden, symbolizing Palpatine's growing role in Anakin's life, as well as foreshadowing what this relationship will grow into. With Episode III: Revenge of the Sith, Be Careful of Your Friend actually contains the Emperor's Theme in disguised form, performed by the strings in a high pitch. Palpatine's TV Set has a deep male choir that foreshadows Palpatine's true nature. Palpatine's Big Pitch contains dark, eerie strings that provide more foreshadowing, and The Emperor's Theme is played a few times, without male chorus and in a slightly high pitch. Palpatine's Seduction contains ominous, dark strings and horns, and The Emperor's Theme is played by ominous strings in full form. I Am the Senate contains a statement of The Emperor's Theme, as Palpatine looks intently at Mace Windu as the two face each other in a lightsaber duel to the death. Moving Things Along (Enter Lord Vader) contains a statement of the Emperor's Theme as Palpatine elaborates on a plot by the Jedi to overthrow the Senate. Anakin's Dark Deeds contains a somewhat disguised variation of The Emperor's Theme, just as Palpatine is about to announce the Republic transformation into the Galactic Empire. It Can't Be contains another disguised variation, as Obi-Wan asks Yoda to send him to kill Palpatine, to which Yoda replies that Obi-Wan is not strong enough to fight Sidious. Heroes Collide contains a variation similar to the one used in It Can't Be, as the Emperor prepares to strike Yoda with force lightening, before it happens with the statement of the Imperial March. Anakin Crawling contains a statement of the Emperor's Theme, without male choir, as Palpatine's shuttle arrives to pick up Anakin. The Birth of the Twins begins with a full statement of The Emperor's Theme, chorus and all. In Episode VI: Return of the Jedi, The Emperor's Theme is used in full form and force whenever he is shown on screen. If I made any mistakes in observation, please feel free to correct me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,715 Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 Well if there is one small complaint about how Williams uses Emperor's theme in the Prequels it is that he somehow forgot the whole B-section of the melody that this theme had in ROTJ. This is why some of the statements of this material sound a tad awkward in the Prequels to me as they basically repeat the A-phrase of the theme several times even though the scene would have allowed enough time to present a full A- and B-sections of the material and would have provided a musical more fluid resolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dylan345 3 Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 Augurs great municipal band is not the emperors theme. I don't know where this myth came from, probably because they sound similar, but the intervals are completely different. It's not the melody slightly altered or transposed to major. It's just a different melody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giftheck 916 Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 It's a reference the melody, like how Imperial March is referenced in Anakin's Theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. K 12 Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 Thematic intonations of Emperor's Theme appears in Augie, very much like Imp. March is in Anakin's Theme- but you're correct. They are often mistaken as the same theme- they are not. They have the same elements and some of the same intervals in composition, but JW made it cloaked just enough that a casual listener will pick up the similar phrases without thrusting the thematic identification in your face. Finding those mirror-like representations of established themes was a lot of fun to discover in the prequels. If only the movies were as good as the scores.In fact, John Williams expressed great interest in doing the music for the ride;That would have been a big undertaking, but absolutely amazing had that happened. Can you imagine new arrangements of those wonderful action cues by JW's pen & baton? I would pay admission just to hear that, nevermind the ride! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyD 1,223 Posted June 15, 2013 Author Share Posted June 15, 2013 Incanus, the B-section of The Emperor's Theme is not performed in Episode I, II, and III because Darth Sidious / Palpatine has not assumed his full role as the Emperor. By the time of Episode VI: Return of the Jedi, the Emperor is in full power and control, hence his theme being more lengthy (the B-section included).Oh, and like ggctuk said, Augie's Great Municipal Band is a reference to The Emperor's Theme, but it still foreshadows Palpatine's true nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted June 15, 2013 Share Posted June 15, 2013 What's the B section? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,715 Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 Incanus, the B-section of The Emperor's Theme is not performed in Episode I, II, and IIIbecause Darth Sidious / Palpatine has not assumed his fullrole as the Emperor. By the time of Episode VI: Return of the Jedi,the Emperor is in full power and control, hence his theme being morelengthy (the B-section included).Oh, and like ggctuk said, Augie's Great Municipal Band is a reference toThe Emperor's Theme, but it still foreshadows Palpatine's true nature.That is a nice analysis but you could argue that Emperor has already been revealed and his power secured at the end of RotS when he rescues Anakin and takes him to Coruscant. Musically I prefer the way he uses both phrases in RotJ as there is a sense of progression and flow instead of static repetition. In Episode I and II the renditions are shorter, which is narratively appropriate, but luckily save us from the repetition of the opening phrase just for that reason.My theory is that Williams used the opening phrase but forgot the second one entirely, hence the somewhat clunky versions heard in Episode III.What's the B section?You can hear it in ROTJ where Williams complements the opening phrases with a secondary one that slightly alters the ending, after which he again usually repeats the opening phrase but segues to other material after that like Imperial March in The Emperor Arrives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyD 1,223 Posted June 16, 2013 Author Share Posted June 16, 2013 You are right, Incanus. By the end of Episode III: Revenge of the Sith, the Emperor is in full force. However, the Empire is not in full force yet. While the Republic has indeed fallen, he has not secured full control, yet. By the time of Episode VI: Return if the Jedi, the Empire is in full form and the Emperor's grip is at its tightest. Therefore, the Emperor's Theme is heard in its entirety.Plus, keep in mind that in Episode III: Revenge of the Sith, the Emperor's Theme was tracked and looped in a few instances in the finished film. As recorded, the motif is only heard in its A-section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyD 1,223 Posted July 16, 2013 Author Share Posted July 16, 2013 An interesting fact: The ending of I Am the Senate is the only instance where the Imperial March (Darth Vader's Theme) is backed by choir; a brilliant performance by the great London Voices, I might add. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,044 Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 Although it wasn't intended to have choir. The choral element was tracked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyD 1,223 Posted July 16, 2013 Author Share Posted July 16, 2013 What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giftheck 916 Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 The use of low male choir at the end of the film version of I Am The Senate is actually pitched-down tracking from the choir recorded for Palpatine's TV Set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyD 1,223 Posted July 16, 2013 Author Share Posted July 16, 2013 You are right. In the film, the chorus from Palpatine's TV Set was tracked into the statement of the Imperial March. However, as written, a dark profound chorus similar in tone with that of The Emperor's Theme was intended to accompany the Imperial March. That is what I heard anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,367 Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 The sheet music definitely does not call for any choir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giftheck 916 Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 I was just about to mention that some of the people here have the sheet music but Jason beat me to that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,367 Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 Actually wait, it does call for "Spooky" Synth Voice for bars 4-9, and "Dark" Synth Voice for the end of the cue... but not actual choir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyD 1,223 Posted July 16, 2013 Author Share Posted July 16, 2013 Oh, okay. Thanks for clarifying that for me. I knew it was some choral element that accompanies the statement of the Imperial March. Thanks, Jason.Synth, huh? It is still a chilling element that is the only instance where that is done in any statement of the Imperial March.Not only that, but for that to accompany that one specific moment in the entire six film saga is yet another stroke of genius by the Maestro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,795 Posted July 16, 2013 Share Posted July 16, 2013 curious, i think in the TPM videogame, one of the files was called spooky. I dont know it it was the emperor's theme from nute gunray confers iwth darth sidious... or the eerie synth choir bit from the OST (before the underwated adventure part) that was not in the film Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datameister 2,044 Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Actually wait, it does call for "Spooky" Synth Voice for bars 4-9, and "Dark" Synth Voice for the end of the cue... but not actual choir. If we had a clean version of the end of the cue as recorded, I'd bet big money that the synths there would be virtually inaudible. They're just there to double the bassoons, giving them a little more body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,367 Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 I'm sure you're right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giftheck 916 Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 curious, i think in the TPM videogame, one of the files was called spooky. I dont know it it was the emperor's theme from nute gunray confers iwth darth sidious... or the eerie synth choir bit from the OST (before the underwated adventure part) that was not in the filmThat was indeed the cue that underscores the scene in which Sidious informs Gunray that he's sending Maul to Naboo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trent B 337 Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 Ya that's the piece that plays between "Chosen One" and "Back To Naboo". That cue I actually called "Moving Forward" which would make sense.I just wish we had the sheet music for The Phantom Menace. It would REALLY help place those misc cues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 I was reading reviews of AOTC score by Williams, all reviews were looking very good but then I came across this one which made me laugh."DEFINITELY NOT A DISAPPOINTMENT-just as good as the movie" Ahh AotC, one of the most hated scores on JWFan...Being part of the minority that likes the score here, I can't say why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,367 Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 I love the score. I think there are more people here that like it than hate it.Also, it was the first Star Wars score that came out once the board was really up and running at full steam with members that had been around a bit and gotten to know each other. Fun summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,795 Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 I still remember the forum two day downtime (server transfer) when the movie opened in cinemas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 I remember posting all night in an Internet café after the midnight premiere in Amsterdam, waiting for the train home.Good times.I love the score. I think there are more people here that like it than hate it.I think only Joe hates it. And even he loves the very very last part with Anakin' theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Breathmask 555 Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 I like that score. The movie is a dud, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 It's a fine score.I'd rather be knifed in the face then see the film again though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck 154 Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 So is this JW's JG-esque moment? Score good, film baaddd!!! Joni Wiljami and Gnome in Plaid 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 Not quite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck 154 Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 Well that's the popular opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hlao-roo 389 Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 I remember posting all night in an Internet café after the midnight premiere in Amsterdam, waiting for the train home.Good times.I love the score. I think there are more people here that like it than hate it.I think only Joe hates it. And even he loves the very very last part with Anakin' theme.I'm not overly impressed with the score, especially "Jango's Escape" after the furious opening minute, but there's plenty to like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck 154 Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 Yep, its JW's JG-esque achievement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trent B 337 Posted September 8, 2013 Share Posted September 8, 2013 I think only Joe hates it. This. I think a good portion of the rest of us do like it. The album is the best Prequel album in terms of presentation and editing that we have had. As we all know the Star Wars games, especially The Old Republic gave us a ton of new previously unreleased music, which in my opinion has helped the listening experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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