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Could someone please post a picture of the sheet music of The Emperor's Theme with the Kylo notes in it, perhaps circled? I am genuinely curious about this as I can't seem to find it in any of the sheet music I've looked at. Thank you
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44 minutes ago, Mattris said:
It's a Call To Adventure - not a "call back to adventure".
This is why I said I was PARAPHRASING Joseph Campbell, not quoting him exactly.
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39 minutes ago, Mattris said:
The first five notes of Kylo's motif are five notes in a row from the primary melody of The Emperor's Theme... Kylo ends up having been manipulated by Palpatine... and you think John Williams just wrote Kylo's motif just to be "musically consistent" in a 'Star Warsy kind of sound'? I'm sorry, but you clearly have no clue how ignorant you sound. The mere suggestion that John Williams did not intend this direct connection is, quite frankly, absurd. I have trouble believing that you - of all people - elvisjones, don't understand John Williams' thematic composition style. He is a genius because he used five notes in a row from The Emperor's Theme - while few people in the world noticed - and it turns out the they were related ideas specifically because "they were meant to be that way from the beginning". The fact that Palpatine returned confirms: It was all planned.
The first five notes of Luke's Theme in Star Wars are literally the first five notes of ET's theme. Does that mean that - while few people in the world noticed, it turns out that Luke and ET are related ideas specifically because they were meant to be that way from the beginning?
And just to be clear, what five notes of Kylo Ren's theme are you saying are from the Emperor's Theme? Kylo's Theme goes: G F# C Eb low-G. The Emperor's theme goes C Eb C...Eb C Bb...C Eb C G F# F-natural. The Emperor's theme never even goes to low G and Kylo's theme has no Bb or F natural. EDIT -- The Ark theme from RAIDERS is arguably as close to Kylo Ren's Theme as the Emperor's theme is - it's melody is G F# C....G F# C....
Talking about people's comments to the press, JJ is well known for lying to the press all the time, such as when he insisted Benedict Cumberbach was not playing Khan in Star Trek Into Darkness. Filmmakers always soften the truth when talking to the press, especially about bumps in the road. Does anyone really think JJ is going to go to the press and start bad mouthing RJ for totally derailing this trilogy? No, he's going to say nice things and be a nice guy and try to get people to come see his movie. George Lucas has revised his version of the evolution of the Star Wars stories many times over the course of making the original films and then the prequels, even when proof that he's changing history is easily available.
I was ready to let this go, but don't call me ignorant. I know what I'm talking about. I don't call people names. Be nice. Thank you.
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Mattris, may I ask you, do you believe George Lucas made Star Wars in 1977 with the plan of Darth Vader being Luke's father and Leia being his sister? Or do you think that evolved over the course of making the three films?
I can tell you with 100% certainty, RJ did not consult with JJ, did not feel compelled to pick up anything JJ set up. As long as he didn't outright contradict anything JJ said in Ep 7, he could do what he wanted. You do not have to believe me. But I promise you, that is the truth. Kathy Kennedy was completely preoccupied with putting out fires every day on Rogue One so Ep 8 was made with relative freedom by RJ. Remember, when they were making Ep 8, 7 had revitalized SW and Disney was not expecting fan backlash. They still had Josh Trank working on a Boba Fett movie, and CT working on outlines for Ep 9. But trust me, Lucasfilm had no intention of bringing Palpatine back until late in the process of ironing out Ep 9, and it was something CT brought to the table just as a sort of a "what if..." idea when his original pitch for the story was rejected by Lucasfilm. CT was very frustrated with where Ep 8 left things - Luke was dead, Han was dead, Snoke was dead, Carrie Fisher had passed away but Leia was still alive.
I think I've said everything I can about this topic. Believe me or don't. People here will vouch for me that I don't post a lot, but when I do, it's pretty much right on....
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1 hour ago, Chen G. said:That's a very supeficial reading. I like The Force Awakens because its like the original Star Wars...until it isn't. At the end, instead of the villain having a conveniently-placed change-of-heart, he goes the opposite direction to Vader and carries through with the deed. If that's not descontructing Star Wars tropes I don't know what is.
TFA is constructed very much like Ep 4 is constructed. Secret data is placed in a droid, the droid goes into the desert and is found by a young person with unusually developed skills (Luke's piloting, Rey's scavenging). The young person is taken in by an older father figure (Obi-Wan, Han Solo) who fills the youth in on the state of affairs beyond the desert world. The father figure is murdered by a good guy turned bad and the youth must take up the mantle to carry on the ancient way that is in danger of being lost forever. The good guys attack a colossal super weapon. It's not a carbon copy of Ep 4 - there are differences - but it's clearly built on the spine of a tested formula that JJ knows works - EP 4 is a successful film, not only commercially, but artistically, so he doesn't mess with the structure.
[As an aside, I can tell you from personal experience that a big part of JJ's process breaking story is that you have to show him an example where something worked in another film or tv program before he will accept it as an option in whatever you're working on with him]
RJ, by contrast, at almost every turn, takes the structure and setup of Ep5 and turns it in the opposite direction. DJ is clearly intended for the audience to relate to as they did to Lando - a scoundrel who betrays the heroes but does the right thing in the end. Only he doesn't. Luke will, perhaps grudgingly like Yoda, finally agree to teach Rey, and his early behavior is a test of her patience to see if she's worthy. Only it isn't - Luke has disconnected himself from the Force entirely and has given up the game. Poe is pulling off the impossible, facing a star destroyer by himself in one tiny x-wing. Instead of being congratulated for heroism as Luke is in the original trilogy, Poe is slapped in the face and demoted. Ben tells Luke - if you face Vader you do it alone, I cannot interfere. In Ep 8, Luke completely interferes by facing Kyle Ren in spirit at the end of the film. The cave sequence in Empire, where Luke faces Vader and finds his own face behind the mask, is mirrored (literally) in Ep 8 when Rey, in trying to see her parents in the dark side cave, only sees herself. The big reveal of Empire, that Vader is Luke's father, is turned against itself when the big reveal of Ep 8 is that Rey's parents are nobodies.
If you are saying that Vader's turn to good at the end of Jedi is somehow proof that TFA is not built on following the tropes of Star Wars, because Kylo Ren doesn't turn good at the end of EP 7, with respect, I think that is being too shortsighted. Vader murders Obi-Wan, his old master, "the closest thing he has to father" (dia from ep 2) in front of Luke. Kylo murders Han, his literal father, in front of Rey.
Again, let me reiterate, I'm not saying 7 or 8 is better than the other, I am just pointing out that the 2 films are made with very different intentions. JJ reveres the past (and I'm not saying that's a bad thing), RJ says "let go of the past. Kill it if you have to..." (And I'm not saying that's a bad thing either). At their hearts, both films reinforce certain core ideas to the star wars stories, such as the young boy with the Force at the end of Ep 8 and the spirit of hope that Leia carries even as they flee Crait.
- Jay, Pieter Boelen, Arpy and 1 other
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1 hour ago, Chen G. said:
What? Where did you get that? Rey's character arc in The Force Awakens is her overcoming of her own delusions regarding her parents. Once she (figuratively) leaves her parents behind, their identity is irrelevant, and I certainly never got the impression that they were of any significance. The whole point of Rey is that she's a lowly orphan: its a rags-to-riches story, which would be diminished if she did come from an important lineage.
Certainly Maz Kanata's dialog in the scene about Luke's lightsaber give some significance to the fact it that it was once Luke's, and his father's before his, and now it calls to her. Everyone is asking - "who's the girl?", "what girl?", etc. JJ definitely wants us to get involved in the mystery of her identity. One of the trailers even starts with a line from Maz ro Rey (deleted from the finished film) - "Who are you?".
The flashback dream sequence when Rey touches the lightsaber intertwines her childhood memories of being left on Jakku with the events leading the Luke's exile. I don't think it is outrageous to conclude from that that the film is asking the audience to make some connection between Rey and Luke.
The scene where Kylo Ren uses the Force to try to read Rey's mind is filled with allusions that there is more to her story than simply being left on Jakku and being nobody. Certainly that she has visions of the island that Luke Skywalker now lives on is some kind of foreshadowing beyond coincidence. The fact that Leia sends Rey to get Luke at the end of the movie also has some influence on the audience attributing some significance to her backstory - there must be some reason she trusts Rey, a girl she met only moments earlier on screen, with this monumentally important task, something more than we know from what the movie explicitly tells us. The movie is constructed to give as much weight to Rey and the mysteries surrounding her identity as possible.
Even so, if we were to accept the premise that by the end of TFA she has accepted that her identity is irrelevant, why is she then so upset about it when discussing it with Kylo Ren in ep 8?
17 minutes ago, Holko said:JJ should have actually put stuff into the film indicating direction instead of leaving them vague if he really wanted things to go some way. But he didn't so fuck him, Rian did a great job.
I'm not saying he didn't. I'm saying he took things in a different direction that JJ had thought they would go.
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58 minutes ago, Chen G. said:
That's a very supeficial reading. I like The Force Awakens because its like the original Star Wars...until it isn't. At the end, instead of the villain having a conveniently-placed change-of-heart, he goes the opposite direction to Vader and carries through with the deed. If that's not descontructing Star Wars tropes I don't know what is.
I don’t understand what you’re referring to in The Force Awakens or the original Star Wars. When does Vader have a convenient change of heart in the original Star Wars? Please clarify.1 hour ago, Holko said:It may have been his call back to adventure but even in TFA, look at what Mark's doing, that's not overtly a look of "well, time for me to come back" or even "aw shuchs, now I'll have to go back", that's perfectly valid as pain at the past he abandoned following him even back here.
Agreed, he’s definitely not excited about it. I never said he was. I think his performance could validly be characterized as resignation to the inevitable though, which is not how RJ handled it, which was much more outright dismissal of Rey, like “go away”.
again, I’m not making a judgement of quality here. Just that I believe JJ and RJ had different goals with their films, and that RJ did not rake things where JJ expected they would go.
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1 hour ago, Holko said:
And what was it that 7 hinted? Because Rian made 8 very consistent with 7. Unlike JJ and 9 with 8.
I’m not making a qualitative judgement on 8 vs 7. But I think JJ and Lawrence Kasdan had set things up to go a certain way following ep 7 and RJ chose to go a different way, watching 7 again recently, it’s pretty clear that JJ meant for Rey to be *somebody*, that Snoke was not intended to be a pawn of Palpatine, that Luke was waiting until the time was right to come back and thus when Rey shows up with the saber at the end, it’s his call back to adventure, to paraphrase Joseph Campbell.
its pretty clear that RJ seemed more inspired to deconstruct the tropes of Star Wars where JJ was more inclined to perpetuate them. In any case, this trilogy had no roadmap to its conclusion, it was made up film-to-film as they went along, which was my main point above.
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Sorry mattris I can confirm there was no plan,and the commonalities between themes that you are referring to are a result of JW creating a musically consistent pantheon of themes for the saga, and his career.
JJ def did not tell JW to compose themes for ep 7 with The Emperor in mind. JJ had no control over where the characters would be taken after ep 7. Hence why Rian Johnson took everything in a totally different direction than 7 hinted, and why Colin Trevorow pitches for ep 9 were different than the path JJ eventually took. CT was the one who brought palpating to the table and that’s why he gets story credit for ep 9.
part of the reason JW is such a genius is cos he can take seemingly unrelated ideas and make them work together as if they were meant to be that way from the beginning.
also the foreshadowing of the prequels was easier because everyone knew that anakin had to end up as Darth Vader. Nobody knew anything about where the story was headed when they made ep 7....
I don’t say these things lightly - I live and work in LA and although I obviously can’t prove it on a forum like this, I DO know what I’m talking about.... -
On 12/10/2019 at 12:11 PM, Jay said:
- FYC 12 Off The Waterfront 1:03 (If you are feeling up to it, you can attempt to segue from the FYC's clean opening into OST 12B [2:21-end] instead)
Do you mean OST 4B instead of OST 12B?
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On 9/16/2006 at 11:04 AM, Stefancos said:
So you are claiming Elvisjones is wrong?
Actually I was! It WAS McCartney tapping his foot. D’oh!
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I take what i said in the other thread back. I'm done with Star Wars. LOL.
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6 hours ago, Quintus said:
So, today was the day user Bespin revealed himself to be JWFan's lone Star Wars nut.
What about me?!
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In 2002 I attended a Lucasfilm event in Hollywood where Rick McCallum and Fred someone from ILM explained the evolution from 35mm film in 1977 to digital capture on Ep 2 in 2000.
One of the things they went into detail about was the evolution of the laser film printer, a machine which could print out new camera negative.
It was developed in the 80's and 90's to improve the quality of CGI images on 35mm - in '77 all the CGI (i.e. the Death Star plans) was captured by pointing a film camera at a computer screen and filming it one frame at a time.
In 1996 FOX decided to do a 20th anniversary rerelease of Star Wars. Lucas went into the vaults and struck a new print from the OCN and was shocked at how much the image had degraded. (They showed the first few minutes of this print at the 2002 event. It did not have the "Episode IV A New Hope" subtitle in the crawl.) The print was dark, murky, and pretty much unwatchable.
The decision was made to scan the entire original camera negative (OCN) into a computer, repair the image digitally, and then print out a new negative using the laser printer. Since they were scanning the whole film in anyways, GL then decided to upgrade shots that he was never happy with, using CGI. This was how CGI shots were done in Jurassic Park, for example - CGI laid over 35mm images scanned into a computer.
Once this decision was made, it was then decided to shoot new elements for the stormtroopers in the desert, and resurrect the lost Jabba the Hutt scene with Harrison Ford. Searching the vaults revealed that the OCN for the Jabba sequence was gone. The only thing they could find was a work print of the scene, complete with edits and editorial markings on the film (grease pencil indications of dissolves, etc). So they scanned the rough cut into the computer, did repair work digitally, then added CGI Jabba over the top of the human stand-in.
The point of all this is that the OCN for the 77 version of Star Wars still exists. The "OCN" of the SE is actually a new negative printed out in '97 from the digitally repaired scan of the OCN from '77 with CGI additions. In fact, they made several OCNs of this version of the movie, and struck theatrical prints from them, which essentially made every 35mm print of the SE 2 generations closer to the OCN since they skipped the inter-positive/inter-negative steps.
In 2006 when the original versions of the first 3 movies were put on DVD in non-anamorphic widescreen, Lucasfilm's press comments clouded the issue because, in an effort to fend off angry fans, GL told vague half-truths about the original version not existing anymore, when in truth, it's just that the '77 OCN is in terrible shape and would need to be restored all over again for any anamorphic release.
So, in conclusion, the 1977 OCN of Star Wars still exists. It's just in terrible shape.
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I remember when Star Wars stopped being a thing - in the late 80's. The Marvel comics run was finished, Kenner stopped selling the toys, George Lucas had vanished from the public eye as a filmmaker, and the notion of a prequel trilogy was a "pie in the sky", "never-gonna-happen" kinda thing....
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17 hours ago, elvisjones said:
I do believe that MG worked on the revision of Star Tours a few years ago. So it's very possible Disney approached him to work on Galaxy's Edge.
I also know for a fact that JW was not crazy about any aspect of the music situation on R1, even before MG was hired. However, currently, Lucasfilm seems to be going to some length to placate JW, (perhaps because he supposedly almost quit ep 9 when he learned JJ was coming back). It's obvious he's not going to be around forever, and my guess is when JW passes on, MG will be brought in to the SW musical universe a lot.
But I have not heard any rumors re:JW/MG on the theme park front. All I know is so far the publicly announced work has been done by JW and Williams Ross.
Rumor control ends now.
Ok, sorry, one more post as I feel compelled to defend my reputation against claims that I am lying, and that what I’ve said is now being exaggerated.
What part of my original post quoted above says EITHER ABRAMS GO OR I GO? What part of this indicates JW was unprofessional in any way, that he shouted at people in some unreasonable, demanding manner? What part of this is me dropping some “sensational bombshell”?
Steef, you’ve been here forever, when have I just posted bullshit? Stu, when have you known me to post something claiming it’s fact just to annoy people versus posting something that I’ve heard or seen FIRST HAND in my job in LA?
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7 hours ago, Arpy said:
It's not a matter of disregarding your claims @elvisjones It's a matter of choosing to believe allegations on the basis of one poster's testimony. Who knows why there haven't been L2P's of R1? The concerts would be chosen and planned through particular agencies - right now it's no surprise to see Star Trek, Up, Lost and Coco are on the roster because they seem to be fan favourites, they've been performed over the last decade and the most accessible films to a range of audiences. Giacchino also presented a suite for R1 along with another film to not receive a concert - Tomorrowland - for his 50th Birthday concert.
I don't mean any ill-will towards you, I just don't like these claims, sensationalist or not, that seek to ruffle more feathers than need be - much like the recent Captain Marvel bullshit. It's the type of
factsgossip that puts me off these discussions that sound more like conspiracy theories.This is the my Last post on this topic.
I would suggest that calling my posts gossips IS disregarding “my claims”, as is calling them a “conspiracy theory”.
Are you really saying that people would rather see LOST L2P than a Star Wars movie? A quick google check reveals that R1 made a billion dollars at the box office. Tomorrowland made 200+ million. Coco made 800+ million. No Trek film of MGs made more than 500 million. The “fan favorite” arguments doesn’t seem very likely an explanation to me, but perhaps you’re right....
I understand that you may not LIKE what I’ve said, but not BELIEVING something because you don’t LIKE it isn’t the answer. I don’t LIKE that Trump is President, but that doesn’t mean I don’t BELIEVE it.
I don’t mean any ill-will toward anyone on the board either, and I don’t seek to ruffle anyone’s feathers. However, that “facts - no, gossip” comment seems definitely intended to ruffle my feathers.
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27 minutes ago, Arpy said:You're making big claims and offering nothing in return, and you're right, I don't have to believe you, because in order to believe something you must be convinced of the evidence and not hearsay.
I'll call up Burtt on the weekend over some brewskis with the lads...
I've been posting on this site since it was THE STAR WARS PREQUEL MUSIC RESOURCE 20 years ago, the old-timers here will tell you, I'm not one to bullshit or make empty claims.
Here is one piece of "return" I offer you. Ben Burtt's interview for Vanity Fair. https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/ben-burtt-star-wars-sound
Here's something else I can offer in "return". There are rips of the 7.1 mix of TFA floating around that make it pretty easy to listen to the score as it appears in EP 7, and it's obvious that it's been hacked to pieces. In contrast, based on their own words, the filmmakers of Ep 8 gave JW a temp score and told him to follow it, which he apparently pretty much did. My guess is after all the rewrites he had to do on Ep 7, he just wanted to write the score for Ep 8 once.
If JW and MG are such buddies, why has no live-to-picture concert for Rogue One been done? MG is constantly doing these, you would think R1 would be done too. We all know the prequels haven't happened because no sheet music exists that matches the films due to all the heavy music editing (and even pitch shifting in EP 3) done. The reason Ep 7 is possible live is that they did all the orchestration and sheet music in a computer originally (the prequel scores were orchestrated by hand using pencil and paper) and conformed it as they recorded the cues expressly for the purpose of potential live-to-picture concerts. By the way, MG always reserves a day at the end of this recording session blocks to do just that - conform his sheet music to the final versions of the cues recorded for potential live-to-picture concerts. I know for a fact he did this on R1 too.
I know I can't convince you that what I say is not "hearsay", but it isn't. I keep a relatively low profile because I like to be able to offer info when I get it without upsetting people I associate with in real life
As to qualifying my remarks as big claims? I simply said, despite what everyone said in public at the time (because we know nobody lies to the press when a movie, especially a big expensive movie, comes out) JW didn't actually enjoy rewriting the score to TFA over and over again for JJ, and when Colin Treverow quit EP 9 and JW realized he might be working under the same conditions as he did on Ep 7, he seriously considered not coming back. Is that a big claim? I guess it is, but in the end, he DID come back, so what does it matter? I just thought it was an interesting factoid to share with SW music fans....
So, again, feel free to disregard what I say, I just wanted to assure you, I'm not just making this up...
Humbly,
elvisjones
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2 hours ago, Arpy said:
Just waiting for elvisjones to reveal that Williams is actually a reptilian doppelganger who had a love affair with Rian Johnson behind Abrams' back.
Nope, just a regular guy. Don't believe me if you don't want to, but someday the truth will come out. JJ is very hard to work with - just ask Ben Burtt...
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I do believe that MG worked on the revision of Star Tours a few years ago. So it's very possible Disney approached him to work on Galaxy's Edge.
I also know for a fact that JW was not crazy about any aspect of the music situation on R1, even before MG was hired. However, currently, Lucasfilm seems to be going to some length to placate JW, (perhaps because he supposedly almost quit ep 9 when he learned JJ was coming back). It's obvious he's not going to be around forever, and my guess is when JW passes on, MG will be brought in to the SW musical universe a lot.
But I have not heard any rumors re:JW/MG on the theme park front. All I know is so far the publicly announced work has been done by JW and Williams Ross.
Rumor control ends now.
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10 minutes ago, dougie said:Why is it they made normal films in the 1980s without trouble? Films like Rain Man, Three Men and a Baby, Fatal Attraction, Home Alone and Ghost were the biggest movies in their respective years.
Why is it these apocalyptic spectacles seem to be the only ones they can fund and the only ones general audiences want to watch?
My personal opinion is that the 6 big studios (Warner Bros, Paramount, Universal, Disney, Sony and Fox) have all decided they would rather spend $300 million to make $1 billion than spend $10 million to make $100 million. Therefore, when investing $300 million in the production of a movie, they hedge their bets and rely on built-in audience recognition to help minimize risk of a flop. On top of that, when they spend that kind of money, they expect the final film to contain a fair amount of spectacle. On top of THAT, they tend to make hiring decisions that minimize the chances of being blamed for taking a risk, so you see the same names writing, directing, starring in, and scoring these movies. Put all that together and you get yet another comic book property/old tv show being rebooted/old movie series being rebooted made by the same people who are making everything else.
The mid-level studios (i.e. Lionsgate, Millennium) try and make movies that achieve some aspect of the bigger studio films but cut corners to keep the costs down, usually well under the $100 million budget. Hence you get movies like Olympus Has Fallen, London Has Fallen, The Hellboy reboot, Red Sonja - directed by people either on their way up to the big 6 studios (James Wan) or on their way down (Bryan Singer).
The low-level studios such as Asylum usually have more creative fare because they need to attract audiences based on high-concept scripts rather than expensive name actors/crew and visual effects. In these movies you see more innovation than the higher 2 categories. But they are made under very tight means, with music budgets in the 10's of thousands of dollars rather than 100's of thousands or even millions.
The real place "normal" films are being made is in the independent film scene, TV/internet "networks", and the foreign film market. Films like Philomena, The Theory of Everything, and The King's Speech, for example, these are are made in Britain outside the mainstream Hollywood system. In America, a lot of the "normal" films are either independently financed or made for TV (HBO in the 80's and 90's, Amazon and Netflix in the 2000's and later).
In the 70's, Paramount would make and release a film like THE CONVERSATION. Now that would be a "Made-for-Netflix" movie. In the 80's, Warner Brothers would make THE ACCIDENTAL TOURIST. Today that would likely be a small film production company like A24 (Room, Moonlight). 90's films like The English Patient would probably be made in England with foreign funding rather than through an American indie like Miramax.
So the films like Rain Man, Three Men, Fatal Attraction, Home Alone, and Ghost are still being made - just not by the 6 major studios....
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2 hours ago, Koray Savas said:
It helps that Balfe can churn out an entire score faster than anyone in the industry.
Well, Balfe’s team can....
notice all the additional music credits on MI6 vs MI5...
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I think because Ryan Shore scores a lot of Star Wars tv stuff, but it would be nice if Joe Kraemer got a shot at Star Wars too?
Star Wars Disenchantment
in General Discussion
Posted
At the risk of being pedantic, (1) it's only 4 notes, not 5, as the first note of the Kylo theme in that example is parenthetical, (2) it's in a different tonal context (a modulation from Dm to Cm rather than in Cminor to begin with), and (3) it's a different rhythm, but I do see that this example illustrates that a symmetry can be found between Kylo Ren's theme and that portion of the Emperor's theme.
I'm not convinced that this is proof that Palpatine was planned as far back as TFA, but I do not deny the similarity of those 4 notes. Personally, and I may be ignorant, I think this is just an example of JW crafting a theme born from the same tonal environment as the Imperial theme in Ep 4, Darth Vader's Theme, The Emperor's Theme, The Trade Federation Theme, and General Grievous's theme, to name a few.
I also do not deny what has been said to the press about CT, JJ, KK, LFL and Palpatine, but unless I was lied to by someone WHO WORKED ON EP 9 DIRECTLY (and I do not deny that is possible), the public version of the story differs from what actually happened behind the scenes (which is not that far fetched to believe). Again, I offer this information as something to consider, I have no reason to lie, no agenda to discredit anyone who either worked on SW or here on the board, just to share something I was told. Please feel free not to believe me.