Nick1Ø66

Mr. Bear, on page 720 of The Lord of the Rings, there is a quote from Frodo, he says “In a world full of mirth and magic, you lose time within yourself”.  Do you agree with this comment?

Mr. Bear, on page 720 of The Lord of the Rings, there is a quote from Frodo, he says “In a world full of mirth and magic, you lose time within yourself”.  Do you agree with this comment?

I think there's a difference between a mystery and a "mystery box". I think of a mystery box as tool used by writers and showrunners in the era of serialised TV (and popularised by LOST), used to string the audience along so they'll continue to tune in week to week.  Good, character driven drama doesn't need mystery boxes, because you're watching for the compelling characters (which is also what makes a show rewatchable, IMO) and not to just find out what happens next.
 
Done well, and with thought, and by writers who know what they're doing and where they want to take the story, mystery boxes can sometimes be effective. But when used by lesser, lazier writers (like the kind on ROP), it's just cheap and annoying.

I think there's a difference between a mystery and a "mystery box". I think of a mystery box as tool used by writers and showrunners in the era of serialised TV (and popularised by LOST), used to string the audience along so they'll continue to tune in week to week.  Good, character driven drama doesn't need mystery boxes, because you're watching for the compelling characters (which is also what makes a show rewatchable, IMO) and not to just find out what happens next.
 
Done well, and with thought, and by writers who know what they're doing and where they want to take the story, mystery boxes can sometimes be effective. But when used by lesser, lazier writers (like the kind on ROP), it's just cheap and annoying.

I think there's a difference between a mystery and a "mystery box". I think of a mystery box as tool used by writers and showrunners in the era of serialised TV (and popularised by LOST), used to string the audience along so they'll continue to tune in week to week.  Good, character driven drama doesn't need mystery boxes, because you're watching for the compelling characters (which is also what makes a show rewatchable, IMO) and not to just find out what happens next.
 
Done well, and with thought, and by writers who know what they're doing and where they want to take the story, mystery boxes can sometimes be effective. But when used by lesser, lazier writers (like the kind on ROP), it's just cheap and annoying.

The point of Adar is that they needed an antagonist for the first season, given that they were holding off on their big Sauron reveal.

Indeed.

Indeed.

This is incorrect. After the first episodes with Míriel and Pharazôn, we know very little about them, but those are not "mystery" characters. All examples of "Who is.."  are characters where the mystery of their identity is the primary reason for why we should care about them.
 
I wouldn't be half as annoyed by the Adar mystery if they hadn't cut to black just before we got a good look at him. That's literally "Tune in next week to find out!" mentality.
But really, it's about quantity. Any show, like Breaking Bad, can have a couple of mysteries without relying on the mystery format for why we should continue to watch. If Adar was one of say 2 or 3 mysteries in the show, I wouldn't mind as much.

Per my previous point about how most shows (no matter how good) tend to have rocky starts, I'm sure we will see an improvement from now on, but I pray that they drop the "mystery box" approach immediately. At some point I started to keep track of how many mysteries they introduced, and this is ridiculous.
Ep 1: What is the sigil? What is the sword? Who is The Stranger?
Ep 2: Who is Halbrand? What’s in the pouch? What’s in the box? What are The Stranger’s symbols?
Ep 3: Who is Adar? What are the Orcs after? Who is Isildur hearing? What is the “real Númenor”? What is Míriel so afraid of?
Ep 4: What are the lies Adar speak of? What is Waldreg’s deal?
Ep 5: What are the Mystics, and what do they want with The Stranger? What’s up with the Sauron/sword statue?
Ep 6: What is the history of Adar and Halbrand? Has Adar killed Sauron?
Ep 7: What happened to Isildur? What happened to Celebrimbor? Did the balrog just awake?
Ep 8: No seriously, what’s in the pouch???

Well then, now that it's done, time to offer my 2 cents.
I should probably admit that I’m quite biased. I’ve been in the “for the love of god, stop milking Tolkien for money” camp for a long time, and up until at least a few months ago I was 100% certain it would be a shit-show. But I’m also allergic to bad faith criticism, and there has been A LOT of it. And I have enjoyed Corey Olsen’s Rings and Realms analysis series, where he’s consistently shown that there is often more to enjoy or trace back to Tolkien in every episode than I notice at first glance.
All that said, and trying to be as generous as possible, this was a disappointment. Better than expected, but still a disappointment. Much like GoT, all creative departments (actors, casting, costumes, sets, sfx, music) have given their A game, except the writers.
To put it in one word, it’s clumsy. I’m not opposed to a lot of what they were going for in general, but I can’t deny that I found something that bothered me about the execution in every episode. I'm not opposed to seeing Galadriel’s character development. In fact, to believe that there was even a risk that she would take the Ring for herself in FotR, I kinda need to see her more arrogant/darker side. However, all too often, she was just straight up dumb. I’m not opposed to see a fresh take on Sauron, where he isn’t just a conniving 1-dimensional mastermind, but someone with a flawed perception of right and wrong. However, why was everything about his plot - from the raft, to the pouch, to his wound - so contrived? I’m not opposed to seeing Gandalf or hobbits in the Second Age, and as expected they did add a balancing flavor against all the other plots. However, it dragged way too much, and left me constantly conflicted if we should consider their culture fascistic or caring (one episode it’s “They must be de-caravaned”, the next it's “Of all people’s in Middle-earth, we’re the best at taking care of each other”???).
I liked to see the “low men” of Middle-earth fleshed out, and it made sense to introduce new characters that the writers can have more freedom with. I found Arondir/Bronwyn/Theo surprisingly endearing as time went on, and was genuinely relieved that they all survived. I liked most of what they did with Númenor, except I’m surprisingly indifferent to Isildur and his relationships to his friends and family. I liked Elrond/Durin/Disa, although I could probably write an essay on why it should have been done with Celebrimbor instead (and for the love of me I don't understand what the point of the oath was).
Up until the final episode, I could at least say that the show hadn’t ruined anything yet. The upside of involving so many invented characters/plots is that they stayed clear of ruining parts we really want to see. Many of my favorite TV-series have rocky starts, like Breaking Bad – and that one had almost zero likeable characters! If this had just been a trial-and-error first season that then could improve before depicting the important stuff, I’d be a lot more lenient.
But now… ugh. Everything about the Ring-making plot is so contrived, haphazard and underwhelming. From the Mithril creation-myth, to the weird expedience of it all, to a several-hundred-year process being boiled down to a pass-by comment by Halbrand. The mystery, the significance of it all is just deflated. Even such a detail as letting the future Ring-bearer Galadriel be a part of the process feels weirdly rushed, as she gives up her brother’s dagger the same episode that she learns of the whole “Elves are dying/Mithril will save them” conflict. And where is Círdan? If Elrond’s inclusion in all of this isn’t already odd, Círdan's absence is even weirder.
 
I honestly think there's good reason to believe it will improve, but I'm afraid some damage done here is irreversible. The one thing that actually makes me angry is what they’ve done to Celebrimbor. Everything unique or remarkable about him is handed to Elrond (relationship to dwarves and mithril), Halbrand (idea for how to make the rings) or even Galadriel (the dagger and concept of three rings). This guy only has at most 2 seasons left before he's gonna die, and gets horribly sidelined in the one season that should have been about him.

I have some bones to pick with the visuals, too.
 
Early on, the whole $1 billion dollar tag got so much buzz and, with fan-screenings of footage, the kind of noteriety that reached my ears regarding these visuals was off the charts.
 
This is going to sound terrible, but early on Fellowship of Fans said that the Tirion reveal over the brow from episode one was possibly the best visual he's ever seen. "Better than anything in the [Middle Earth] films." Naturally my mind raced to other movie reveals, like the Wadi Rum reveal from Lawrence of Arabia. "What's that?" he asked. I sent a link. "My man, its just a big rock."
 
Well, as it turns out, this show's budget wasn't $1 billion. It was more in the balpark of $350 million. That is, the budget of one big movie, only spread across nine hours. And so yeah, the Khazad Dum reveal is very impressive, but most of the scenes either use the very same CGI wideshot OR take place in closed-off, square, grey rooms.
 
And I'm bringing this up because this recent episode was among the most egregious in this regard because in episode one we had this:
 

 
which is not only mighty pretty, its actually something different to what we've seen before: an actual Elven city; which in itself is what Lindon should have been, except they made it Lorien-lite because "is it really Middle Earth without Elves living amid golden trees?"
 
Well, pretty though this realization of Eregion may be, we see it for two wideshots and then we cut...to a rather cavernous interior set. For all one would know from the scene, it could take place in someone's house rather than some opulent Elfin metropolis.
 
Then we see the wideshot again for a few seconds in episode 5 before into the cramped set we go; and now in this episode, much of which takes place in this setting...we're again mostly greeted to pretty but rather small interiors, a little corner of a courtyard and a little riverbank on-location.

ROP deserves to be judged more harshly than other genre shows because of its pedigree. Not only its (albeit loose) origins in Tolkien, but the unprecedented amount of money spent on it.  
 
Take someone whose life was a disappointment, and who squandered the opportunities they were given. If that person came from a great family, had been raised in privilege and wealth, and given the best possible education and every advantage in life, you'd judged him more harshly than one who came from a disadvantaged background. And rightly so.
 
There's simply no excuse, given the type of writers and showrunners they had access to and could have brought in, for the show to have ended up like this. Bear's score and stunning visuals (and the latter are expected in a production like this) can't make up for the amateurish writing, poorly written characters, awful pacing and nonsensical plot. It's an incredible waste of time, talent and resources, and frankly, yes, an insult to Tolkien. 
 
With great power comes great responsibility!

ROP deserves to be judged more harshly than other genre shows because of its pedigree. Not only its (albeit loose) origins in Tolkien, but the unprecedented amount of money spent on it.  
 
Take someone whose life was a disappointment, and who squandered the opportunities they were given. If that person came from a great family, had been raised in privilege and wealth, and given the best possible education and every advantage in life, you'd judged him more harshly than one who came from a disadvantaged background. And rightly so.
 
There's simply no excuse, given the type of writers and showrunners they had access to and could have brought in, for the show to have ended up like this. Bear's score and stunning visuals (and the latter are expected in a production like this) can't make up for the amateurish writing, poorly written characters, awful pacing and nonsensical plot. It's an incredible waste of time, talent and resources, and frankly, yes, an insult to Tolkien. 
 
With great power comes great responsibility!

ROP deserves to be judged more harshly than other genre shows because of its pedigree. Not only its (albeit loose) origins in Tolkien, but the unprecedented amount of money spent on it.  
 
Take someone whose life was a disappointment, and who squandered the opportunities they were given. If that person came from a great family, had been raised in privilege and wealth, and given the best possible education and every advantage in life, you'd judged him more harshly than one who came from a disadvantaged background. And rightly so.
 
There's simply no excuse, given the type of writers and showrunners they had access to and could have brought in, for the show to have ended up like this. Bear's score and stunning visuals (and the latter are expected in a production like this) can't make up for the amateurish writing, poorly written characters, awful pacing and nonsensical plot. It's an incredible waste of time, talent and resources, and frankly, yes, an insult to Tolkien. 
 
With great power comes great responsibility!

I think it’s clear at this point that the Tolkien Estate just wanted the money and didn’t give a damn about what the show did. It’s about as closely related to the Tolkien’s work as your average game of D&D.

House of the Dragon feels less algorithmically driven to me than genre shows on Netflix, Amazon, Disney, etc. I swear some of the shows on those streamers feel like they're designed based entirely on focus groups & audience data, and conjured up in writer's rooms where groupthink is the dominant virtue.
 
House of the Dragon, the best show on TV, feels purposeful and confident in its characters and story. Whoever is making the decisions on that show clearly has a vision of where they want it to go, and it shows. This is what good television is supposed to look like.

That would have been wise, I think.

Impressive. Most impressive.
 
While my feelings about the show itself are well known, I can't help but respect the passion, talent and commitment Bear has put into this project. He was an obvious choice for the score, and even though he wouldn't have been my first choice (among the prospects they could have realistically hoped to get), it's hard to think of many other composers who could put out such a solid body of work under such demanding constraints. You could argue simply the scope of what he's doing is historic in terms of TV scores.

Impressive. Most impressive.
 
While my feelings about the show itself are well known, I can't help but respect the passion, talent and commitment Bear has put into this project. He was an obvious choice for the score, and even though he wouldn't have been my first choice (among the prospects they could have realistically hoped to get), it's hard to think of many other composers who could put out such a solid body of work under such demanding constraints. You could argue simply the scope of what he's doing is historic in terms of TV scores.

If this were the Harfoots they'd have left your a** behind a long time ago.

I...may have been (falsely, falsely!) accused - multiple times! - of having had a tryst with one of my lady co-hosts - lets just say I was listening to a lot of Tristan! ... but other than that, I've been on my best behaviour, honest! 
 
Oh, and maybe on the last watch party (which I attended drunk) I may have called the showrunners out on a bluff on-air. Maybe...
 
But other than that...!

They haven't kicked you out yet?